Are Machinists Skills Necessary?

C

Chism G

Active member
A non-machinist has a distinct competitive disadvantage in this Sport. A non-machinist that does not have a private shooting range or ready access to one,has a Competitive disadvantage in this Sport. There are of course a few exceptions to this view point.

The Competitior who possess machinist skills necessary to do his own Rifle work.ie,Barrel Chambering, general Riflesmithing Has a competitive advantage. Ad to that advantage,those competitors who in addition to the machinist skills also own their own private ranges/tunnels

I bring this up because I believe many of us fit into that first category Of Competitor. Including myself. Content on paying the registration fees and just having a little fun. Oh, I have friends who will come to my aid when I need gunsmithing work. I have to , understandably, work around their busy schedules. Most times their schedules don’t allow me to get something fixed the week before the match. Hence,a competitive disadvantage.

I am delighted When I occasionally do good at a match. I don’t practice enough. I can,t make last minute fixes that require Machinists skills and Tools,but I don’t complain.I just keep buying Lotto tickets.

I hope this discussion will benefit those thinking of getting into this fun Sport. Its just Food for thought.

Lets talk about this.



Glenn
 
I would have to disagree. Looking at the HOF, most do not or did not do their own machine work prior to getting into the HOF, nor did they have tunnels, etc. I could go as far as saying it could be a distraction that takes away from practice. Just my thoughts on it.

But all these guys have a few things in common....practice time, component evaluation skill, and ability to tune.

For me, there has to be enjoyment. That's first.

Hovis
 
Gotta be a planner first and foremost. Have extra everything way ahead of time. Have a new barrel 6mo before you need it. Have a spare gun with ammo preloaded for the trigger that goes out in a relay, have a spare set of brass. Just think about what can go wrong that you wont easily borrow in a match and get ready
 
And

The Machinists / tool makers also save considerable money by not having to buy wind flags or probes.
The wind never blows in their lane? ;)
Centerfire
 
Having a lathe and knowing how to use it is certainly helpful in this game. It would save you money and wait time, and allow you to do things your way. However, I don't think it's a competitive advantage as much as a convenience advantage.

The second thing you mentioned, having a personal range and/or tunnel, is definitely a big advantage for a competitor. The ability to step out one's door and instantly be ready to shoot would be a dream. You would spend less time traveling, setting up, taking down, and more time shooting. More trigger time and less time wasted hauling junk around can only be an advantage for the competitor.

That being said, the two biggest advantages a Bench Rest competitor can have is not a lathe or a personal range, but rather a heap of money and a ton of time. No one will ever convince me that this game has not become a game for the wealthy, retired folks. Sure, you can play the game on the cheap and without practicing. But the advantage will always be to the guy who can afford to chamber up 6 or 7 barrels per year, and send unlimited amounts of components down those barrels any time he wants. All the natural shooting talent and wind reading ability in the world can't keep up with that. It might win a match here or there, but over the long haul, the guy with the most supplies and the most time to compete will have the advantage. And if that fella has a private range and a lathe............well, envy is a deadly sin.:rolleyes:
 
Time. I got a load of time. What am I doing? sitting at the key board.............
Money. I gots the money. If I had a lathe and mill, I would just need more money, to build more experiments....
Would money and time help win. No.
Right now. I don't care to drive. To Benchrest matches.
But, I do shoot every weekend. Something. Pins, plates, paper.....
Maybe, when the barrels get back to the quality they were 8-9 yrs ago....Maybe.
 
zippy06 said:
Maybe, when the barrels get back to the quality they were 8-9 yrs ago....Maybe.
Click to expand...

That's where the time and money come in. Yeah, you can still find decent barrels these days. Only thing is you have to buy half a dozen to get one now. How do you know if you got a good one? Well, that's where time comes in.......you have to spend more money to put more rounds down more barrels to find the good one. That takes more time and more money. There just ain't no way around it I'm afraid.
 
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Tim,

zippy06 said:
Time. I got a load of time. What am I doing? sitting at the key board.............
Money. I gots the money. If I had a lathe and mill, I would just need more money, to build more experiments....
Would money and time help win. No.
Right now. I don't care to drive. To Benchrest matches.
But, I do shoot every weekend. Something. Pins, plates, paper.....
Maybe, when the barrels get back to the quality they were 8-9 yrs ago....Maybe.
Click to expand...

Just an observation. You say you shoot "every weekend". But not BR "every weekend". The grand mix of your shooting may well be a part of the issue. I know when I decide to shoot a few rounds of skeet or trap w/ friends during the BR season, my bench shooting suffers. Whole different paradigm of actions. Jerk vs squeeze. Track vs read flags.

And as far as driving to matches, at least you have BR range relatively close to home. Go there and practice.

Just MHO.

David
 
My observation is it's the personalities that produce the winners. These are the people that are driven to succeed. So, I'd say, with a little wind, you could swap guns and they'd still win.
 
Are machinestsSkills necessary?

It sure doesn't hurt you can stretch your budget by doing more of your own work.
Its not rocket science installing anew barrel. Really is just basic.
That said Practice is more important and being able to make top notch hand loads. that are concentric.
Bullet making helps too. If you make your own you'll have control on the quality of your bullets and be able to trade for chambering or other services for bullets.
The most important thing is having a great range to practice on, that's the tough one.
 
goodgrouper said:
Having a lathe and knowing how to use it is certainly helpful in this game. It would save you money and wait time, and allow you to do things your way. However, I don't think it's a competitive advantage as much as a convenience advantage.

The second thing you mentioned, having a personal range and/or tunnel, is definitely a big advantage for a competitor. The ability to step out one's door and instantly be ready to shoot would be a dream. You would spend less time traveling, setting up, taking down, and more time shooting. More trigger time and less time wasted hauling junk around can only be an advantage for the competitor.

That being said, the two biggest advantages a Bench Rest competitor can have is not a lathe or a personal range, but rather a heap of money and a ton of time. No one will ever convince me that this game has not become a game for the wealthy, retired folks. Sure, you can play the game on the cheap and without practicing. But the advantage will always be to the guy who can afford to chamber up 6 or 7 barrels per year, and send unlimited amounts of components down those barrels any time he wants. All the natural shooting talent and wind reading ability in the world can't keep up with that. It might win a match here or there, but over the long haul, the guy with the most supplies and the most time to compete will have the advantage. And if that fella has a private range and a lathe............well, envy is a deadly sin.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

How many bbls would a person have to chamber to pay for that lathe?
 
CharlieH and GerryM said most of what needs to be said to answer Clenn's questions.

And, yes, a suitable and convenient place to practice that duplicates what would be expected at a registered shoot. Within 30 minutes of me are 4 good gun clubs with concrete benches and overhead cover. Plus, 3 friends have ranges where I can shoot, one to 600 yards, within that distance and I have my own private range. I'm saying this to point out practice is at the top of the list in importance. Being able to get the most out of "what ye' brung" is what takes you up the list.
 
When I started shooting benchrest, a friend of mine, Joe Archer would chamber my barrels after work at the machine shop where he worked. After watching him do it, I figured I could do that and bought a Jet bench top belt drive lathe. I think it cost about $2750. Not much of a lathe, but it doesn't take much of a lathe to do a good job chambering a barrel. It was a big investment for me at the time and one I probably couldn't afford. However, I don't regret it at all and certainly never thought it would lead to a shop full of machine equipment. What I've found is that when you can do your own work, you'll change barrels more often than if you don't as you are only out the cost of the barrel and your time. I probably wind up taking off a competitive barrel before it needs to be taken off. It seems they shoot their best when they are fairly new. As to going through lots of barrels to find one thats competitive, I just haven't seen it. Looking at the equipment list at the Cactus, 16 out of 20 in the LV and 13 out of 20 in the HV class did their own barrel work. Having a range close to your house doesn't hurt a thing, but you still have to take the time and have the drive to use it. I think it's the drive to compete that separates most of the ones at the top of the leader board from the rest of us. Starting your group in the right conditions doesn't hurt a thing either. It took a long time to figure out that there are 7 minutes to shoot the group and that the group doesn't have to be shot in the first minute or two with whatever condition is present at the time. I think Dusty has the right idea if you don't do your own work, it takes more planning. You have to have the new chambered barrel sitting on the shelf ahead of time of when you want it especially in todays times where it takes so long to get barrels from the manufacturer. The same with bullets. If you like a certain bullet, plan ahead and have them sitting on the shelf.
 
As most know, I am a Machinist, and to add to that, I own a rather good size Machine Shop.

In my opinion, based on years of experience in running a shop, I can say that basic barrel work can be performed by any 1st year apprentice. The perameters of the job are really quite simple in machine shop terms, and there is tooling readily available that makes the work more or less "painting by the numbers".

The single advantage in having your own equipment, and knowing how to achieve the requirements of the job, is convienience. I can call Lester Bruno on Monday, have a barrel by Thursday, and be ready to shoot that week end. That beats......."I am 6 weeks behind" when you call a Gunsmith.

There is something to be said for that.

But, I think a bigger advantage than having a Shop is being a member of The Tomball Gun Club. Since it is a closed membership private club, I have access to it 7 days a week, from dawn till dusk. Sometimes, several of us will have the range entirely to ourselves for an entire day. It is a phenominol place to be a member of.

I tell people that a membership in the Tomball Gun Club "is worth it's weight in great barrels and good bullets.
 
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First Lathe...

When I purchased my first lathe, the guy was joking with me and said, "If you promise to buy all your tooling from me, I will just give you the lathe"! At the time, I didn't know how true that statement was. That first lathe cost about $4000. THEN, add the price of all the reamers, headspace gauges, Aloris tool post ($400), about 20 tool holders at $40 each, AND the tools to go in them at anywhere from $50 to $175 each, 3 sets of Deltronic pin gauges at $135 per set. (22, 6mm. 30 cal). Micrometers, Ball mics, 6 jaw chuck, live centers, indicators, cutting oils, (by the gallon / 5 gallon)
band saw, belt sander to polish barrels, good scale to weigh rifles, action wrenches to fit most actions, and believe me, the list goes ON-AND-ON. Don't misunderstand, I enjoy doing this kind of work very much, BUT, if it's the money you want to save, have someone else do your work, and you will be many $$$$ ahead of of the game, But, you will miss out on the enjoyment of doing your own work. And when someone is shooting a rifle you built, there is a lot of satisfaction in that too. It was a decision that I have never regreted.
 
goodgrouper said:
That's where the time and money come in. Yeah, you can still find decent barrels these days. Only thing is you have to buy half a dozen to get one now. How do you know if you got a good one? Well, that's where time comes in.......you have to spend more money to put more rounds down more barrels to find the good one. That takes more time and more money. There just ain't no way around it I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

Larry Costa indicated he bought 30 barrels to come in 2nd IBS nationals 2013.
 
You said it yourself

" I don't practice enough" I guess you need to define practice. For myself, it's alot more than just trying to read the flags and shoot a few good groups. most of my "practice" is about tune and trouble shooting. If the rifle is not shooting well, why? Is it the bbl, bullets, what about the ignition? What about your rest setup? Could it be the scope? There are so many things, you can have 99% of the things right but all it takes is that 1% to screw you up.
I spend most of time hunting for that last 1%. And I'm still not there.

Richard Brensing
 
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