Any Bets on What the Quake Costs US Taxpayers?

benenglish said:
Interesting. I used to have a father, too, and he spent WWII in the occupied Philippines, having to evac before MacArthur started to make good on his promise to return. He saw and participated in bad, bad things and was forever scarred, physically and emotionally, by that war. You have to know that a six foot tall man who comes out of the jungle weighing just a tick over 100 pounds has been through hell.

Yet, for all the savagery he had witnessed, he had a completely different view of the Japanese. In his view, they fought with everything they had while they were at war, just as good soldiers should. Then, when the Emperor told them to lay down arms, they did. There was no post-surrender spite directed towards the occupying forces. He spent a great deal of time stationed in Tokyo and considered that the many Japanese he dealt with displayed an honorable deference to their conquerors. He likened their behavior to the best sort of southern U.S. good manners.

They were defeated. They knew it. And they acted like it. He respected them for that and was highly intolerant of his many peers who held a grudge. (Though, to be fair, he was willing to admit that if he had been Chinese or if he had been captured, he would probably be unable to be so generous in his outlook.)

It's interesting to me how history, both in textbooks and in the family, echoes down through the years. Clearly, different men take different views of wars past, both then and now.

And just to offer something on-topic - I'm finding that the Japan disaster coverage on BoingBoing.net is exemplary. They link out to lots of good sources. Here's a particularly good section on finding responsible, accurate coverage of the nuclear plant problems (as opposed to the dubiously accurate, typically ax-grinding crap that usually passes for news in the mainstream media): http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/14/japanese-nuclear-pla.html#comments
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After giving that post some thought, sorry benenglish, but, I ain't buy'n it. Sounds more like something I'd expect in a sermon. The more people I think about, whom I've met in my lifetime, who were either there or in Europe, going back through the many conversations I've had, I just can't remember one of them every saying, "awww shucks, those Japs or Jerries fought valiantly and you just can't hate em for that. Gee, they're just nice folk like anybody else, they just were told to go kill millions of folks so they did. All those folks who are dead? Ahhh, it's just war, no hard feelings! Let's go help em out now... ".

Huh? You serious?

My Brother-in-laws father, (late father as of last winter) was Either 101st or 82nd Airbourne, Normandy to Berlin. I can't recall which, but, there is a sign hanging in Williamsport with his photo on it, followed by one of my father. They were pretty good friends. Never in all my day did I remember either one ever mention even one person they had known who shared this forgive-and-forget attitude. Fact is, I'd bet a person would have been scared to admit such an attitude during that period of time. Which is why above I say, I'm not buy'n it.

I've been a WWII buff since I was in grade school. Hate to say it but that's been a while. I've met a remarkable number of WW2 vets. Can't say I ever even heard of any with that attitude. Most of em would have gladly gone back in a B52 any day.

As an aside...

Our office guy at work who went to Haiti was part of a church group who knew of the corruption in all this "Aid", so, they decided they'd just circumvent all that donation crap and do some good on their own. They got the church (rather big church) to get a fund and buy a container load of building materials and they were gonna go down and help rebuild an orphanage down there. Many of em went down, when they got there, 'Hey! There's our container! Let's get started!' Opened it up, and there was nothing in it.

Muchos Gracias!

You can't beat these people...

And that's a true story... Sadly
 
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As for them laying down their arms when told to, as I recall, that wasn't the case. I seem to remember talk of even during the Korean war, the military still actively rooting out pockets of resistance in caves on some of the islands. The last of which iirc, were still not cleaned up during the 1980's and even into the 90's. I seem to recall one guy who they couldn't convince that the war was over and Japan had lost.

I'd agree about history being remembered differently.
 
My Dad was in the Pacific, I had an Uncle in the Navy in Europe, and another Uncle that was with Patton. The Army Uncle was in Korea also. I heard no preaching of hate or disgust. They were glad that it was over and they were ready to get on with their life.
My oldest Son did a Mission trip to Haiti and yes he was disgusted at the way some of the religious people lived while the people were suffering.
Butch
 
4Mesh said:
... Sounds more like something I'd expect in a sermon. ... I'd bet a person would have been scared to admit such an attitude during that period of time. ...
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You hit the nail on the head. My dad was the son of a primitive Baptist revivalist and learned well from his father. He was a better man than me, that's for sure, and arguably the best I've ever met. His attitude was certainly rare; his brothers (who all fought in Europe, one infantry, one a glider pilot at Normandy, one...I forget), for example, certainly didn't share his outlook.
 
There is no doubt if you ask 10,000 different people about their past experiences during war you could easily have 10,000 different stories and views. This applies to all sides. War brings out the best and the worst regardless of what side you are on.

The tragedy that is unfolding right now is shocking and the past has no relevance. I feel sorry for anyone who can not feel empathy for those affected.
 
benenglish,
You have some insight into the Japanese.They have their sense of "on" or obligation.First to the Emperor second to the family. If the Emperor said fight to the death you did.If your mother said your wife is no good ,you sent her away. We Americans had little understanding of the Japanese in the war.We thought that to defeat them we would have to use flame throwers in every cave in Japan. But when the Emperor said surrender they did, They gave up their cherished swords, and literally bowed and asked what do you want next because thats what the Emperor said to do.If he had said keep fighting ,we would have had to kill them all.

It is funny that a person fighting for America would be viewed as a hero for such selflessness. I understand the hatred of those who fought them or who lost loved ones,but they were simply doing what they felt they had to do just as American soldiers were.I own a sword made in 1206 by a sword maker named Yosifusa. It was part of a collection owned by the Tokagawa dynasty which unified and controlled Japan for 250 years.It would have been in the hands of a Daimyo when tha Mongels invaded in 1274 and 1281. It is in the US because the Japanese people did as they were told . It is a perfect 27 inch razor blade after 800 years. It exemplifies the Japanese sense of obligation to things that are to be cherished.
Notice how there is no looting and vandalism like we had in New Orleans. While we have allowed political correctness and feminism to destroy our family structure and morals. That is not the case in Japan. You would never dishonor your family by behaving in such a dishonorable fashion.Certainly there is dishonesty at government and corporate levels, but the behavior on the street is more indicative of the average Japanese person and their desire to be honorable.
As to the cost to the American taxpayor, the Japanese will sell the American bond to repatriate the money to rebuild their country.This will drive up interest rates and therefore government debt which we already can not pay. The fed will print money and buy the bonds which we will be enslaved to pay back.No slave is so hopeless as the one who thinks he is freee.
 
There is no doubt the Japanese culture is something to be admired in a crisis. I'd bet we could screw that up in a heartbeat if we gave them our news media. Oh ya, and throw in the ACLU also.

Later
Dave
 
In WWII we were.................

sold a bill of goods by the white house, thats what got us in that war, the Japanese were just the tool.

The Japanese have got plenty of money, and its backed in GOLD if they have to, REALLY have to, use it. The Japanese themselves believe it would take 100 years to recover their war loot, just what is in the Phillippines alone. (2050)

Yes, they are an organised society, and they're visited, (spied upon) by the police, and visited by that police at least once a year and questioned about their entire life and personal business, its Orwellian. And, if they are ever arrested, they go to jail, and aren't released until they confess; then they go to trial, and EVERYONE confesses, eventually. Their conviction rate is something like 98% or so.

You can admire them all you want, but that's not a society I'd want to live in. However, they have no alien problems, "Hey, Bunky, you're OUTTA here!!!"
I wish we'd take AT LEAST that stand. :mad:
 
True, while Japan is a "democracy", (Parlimentary Government), they are not a free society in the sense that we are. I am not sure if their Constitution contains a Bill of Rights such as ours.
Is their Justice System based on the concept that you are innocent untill the state can prove you are guilty?

Even if it does, if it is a Constitution that can be changed by the political whims of the moment, it isn't worth the paper it's written on. Our Founding Fathers saw fit to make the United States Constitution an extremely difficult document to change. Hense, it's wisdom withstands the test of time. Think how worthless it would be if all it took was a majority of Congress and the Presidents signature to change it.........jackie
 
The Japanese Constitution (iirc) was written by Americans, or at least drafted by them, and modeled after our own. Now, whether or not it also includes a Bill of Rights like ours does, I'd have to look that up. I'm sure there's rights, but, to what extent they mirror ours is another story. And actually, as drafted, our Constitution had no Bill of Rights.

I see lots of folks here who seem to think family values and that sort of thing are somehow 'better' over there. For all I know, maybe the media there isn't allowed to report on all the looting going on, and perhaps there isn't any, or very little. I don't see their society as inherently better than that in America. In fact, even now, I'd say it's quite a bit worse. I'm not sure there is a place quite like here other than maybe AU and CA. Maybe AR or BR. Exclude all of Europe by default. They're not even close.

Then, as to how bravely they fought, or valliantly, or whatever term you'd like to use. Is this the same society that brought us WW2 in the early 30's by fabricating a reason to invade China? Same righteous folks who brought us Pearl Harbor? The Bataan Death March? The Rape of Nan-king? Hiding behind civilians? These were not rogue units, this was state underwritten stuff carried out with as much zeal as possible by the entire military. Remember, any US soldier who'd have done such stuff possibly faced a firing squad.

I stand by my original point that it scalds me to think even one of my tax dollars is going over there. And from the looks of things, there might be 200 of em or so already (just mine I'm talking).
 
No one has said that Japan is better, that their family values are better, or that historical facts should be ignored. Personally, I know enough about Japan to know I would love to visit but would never want to live there. I also think I know enough to not hold the sins of their fathers against them. All that stuff is off-topic, anyway.

However, on this subject:

4Mesh said:
I stand by my original point that it scalds me to think even one of my tax dollars is going over there.
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I do think an on-topic comment is in order. To wit -

While I may have some quibbles with the way you've arrived at your conclusion, I don't think you're wrong to reach it. There are good, practical reasons to NOT give money to Japan quake/tsunami relief. Those reasons have nothing to do with historical interactions more than half a century old or subjective judgments about the relative worthiness of societies.

For a brutally level-headed discussion of the issues, this article does a fine job of covering the basics.
 
benenglish,

really enlightening is to read the responses to the article you linkied...

"dude, like OMG! Are you for real??"

"what an unfeeling XXXXX"

"flag this article!"

"like I'm so sure!"

reading stuff like these answers makes me feel like the only real answer is a total collapse and rebuild....we're being outvoted by children, OUR children whom we've given the world to!

scarey

al
 
I have read that the Japanese tried to surrender before the bomb but were not allowed to.

We were squeezing their oil supply and they knew they only had xx days supply left and had to do something drastic== Pearl Harbor.

We are kinda being squeezed for oil. Too bad we cant get at our 200 yr supply. What are we saving it for. If we were to begin to think about drilling, the price would fall 10%++ in a couple months. Thanks Barry and George (not BUSH).
 
4Mesh said:
How much do you suppose this'll cost us?
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About 1/10 of 1% of what these Bush wars are costing. Besides what we will spend in Japan will be humanitarian aid to help innocent victims. These stupid and illegal wars simply kill the innocent victims. The innocent victims being both our soldiers and their citizens.
 
4Mesh said:
How much do you suppose this'll cost us? I just can't wait for the next disaster so we in the US can go spend money on it! :D

I'm bett'n $350B. I'd say trillions, but we're so broke now I'm not sure that amount of philanthropy will fly.
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You're looking at it from the wrong point of view. $350 billion injected into the economy is a good thing. Jobs created, an increase in the money supply that should put additional downward pressure on interest rates. What more could you ask for? Bring on those disasters!

But of course the printing press only provides for a temporary solution, and the price of precious metals, crude oil, and most commodities for that matter, are telling us exactly that.

Ford42
 
This is where the real cost to the US will come from.When a country is spending 8 times its monthly income(http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mar...y-for-the-meltdown-of-the-US-Treasury-Bond_a6

That spells higher prices for everything bought or built with debt.Pimco which is ,I believe, the largest bond fund in the world sold all US bonds last month .Smart short selling of the US bond can probably provide all ones cash needs for the next few years.For some reason I could not copy the full url for the second article.It can be found here.
http://www.jsmineset.com/
 
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