A Synopsis on the Score Discussions.

[glp]

Bob...

Most of this seems focused on the 100 yd target, 250-25x although not in every match does happen. Any National competition would be made of
multiple yardages and I have never heard of 250 and 25x's at 200. I
doub't that anyone is concerned with 250-25x's at 300.

when compared to all the 100 yard aggs shot in a year the number of 25X aggs is miniscule!

At 200 the current world record is 18X by Allie Euber. Jim Wooten has a 19X agg from the Bud Pryor shoot in June this year pending and in the hands of the records committee. I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can very well see a 25X at 200 but certainly not 25 wipeouts, and at 300 not likely. JMHO. Regards

 

[mturner]

I understand

that this is about change. I simply think that it's fine the way it is. I guess the word "change" doesn't settle well with me these days. Obama promised "change". Change is not always better, and in this case, I'd say it's not. I know for a fact that measuring would be a problem. Center to center distance would have to be measured 5 times per target, not once. I already have 2 to 3 out of five targets that are measured wrong per agg., simply because I shoot 30 cal. I have never seen this to be a problem with best edge scoring. If we had 1/32" X dot, 1/4" ten ring, 1/2" nine ring and so on, this might be an advantage to reduce the super high scores.

Michael

 

[mike in co]

that this is about change. I simply think that it's fine the way it is. I guess the word "change" doesn't settle well with me these days. Obama promised "change". Change is not always better, and in this case, I'd say it's not. I know for a fact that measuring would be a problem. Center to center distance would have to be measured 5 times per target, not once. I already have 2 to 3 out of five targets that are measured wrong per agg., simply because I shoot 30 cal. I have never seen this to be a problem with best edge scoring. If we had 1/32" X dot, 1/4" ten ring, 1/2" nine ring and so on, this might be an advantage to reduce the super high scores.

Michael

go to the original thread, the scoring would take longer than todays score, but this would be a different game....as proposed by jackie. the tools have been designed, and easy to use.
the bottom line no one wants change.....( and yes change does not always mean for the better).
there is no group measurement, only distance from center, a bit quicker than group.

all of this is for naught, go read the opening statement of this thread...the disscussion is over...lol.

i still find it amazing that both major br groups claim ACCURACY as thier main goal, but anytime someone proposes real accuracy....no one wants change.
( real accuracy= hitting what you aim at , br accuracy= keeping the other four where the first one went when i MISSED what i was aiming at. i did not say br was easy.)

mike in co

 

[mwezell]

go to the original thread, the scoring would take longer than todays score, but this would be a different game....as proposed by jackie. the tools have been designed, and easy to use.
the bottom line no one wants change.....( and yes change does not always mean for the better).
there is no group measurement, only distance from center, a bit quicker than group.

all of this is for naught, go read the opening statement of this thread...the disscussion is over...lol.

i still find it amazing that both major br groups claim ACCURACY as thier main goal, but anytime someone proposes real accuracy....no one wants change.
( real accuracy= hitting what you aim at , br accuracy= keeping the other four where the first one went when i MISSED what i was aiming at. i did not say br was easy.)

mike in co

Mike, I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers but, I have to ask...Where do you shoot registered group or score matches? Maybe you can put on a match using the scoring system that you describe and have at least 2 relays of shooters and 2 yardages in 1 day....and you do all of the scoring...then get back with us to let us know how it went.

And to be fair....I think it would be great if more NBRSA ranges put on some unofficial score matches too, to better see how things work. There certainly does seem to be enough interest on here to bring some shooters out to give it a try. ---Mike

 

[mike in co]

Mike, I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers but, I have to ask...Where do you shoot registered group or score matches? Maybe you can put on a match using the scoring system that you describe and have at least 2 relays of shooters and 2 yardages in 1 day....and you do all of the scoring...then get back with us to let us know how it went.

And to be fair....I think it would be great if more NBRSA ranges put on some unofficial score matches too, to better see how things work. There certainly does seem to be enough interest on here to bring some shooters out to give it a try. ---Mike

its been asked and answered.....you will have to find the post yourself.

sorry but i missed the rule that said only "registered" matches count ??

so all the 6ppc's at my club don't count, cause they are not in your "club"
bs....!

i'd be willing to bet that there are more club br matches than there are "registered " matches...... its gotta start somewhere......
even jackie's club has "club" matches.....

grow up and quit being an elitest........

mike in co

 

[mwezell]

Mike, You only responded to the first part of my post. I guess it did ruffle your feathers. How bout the rest? Put up or shut up. Put on a match at your club, with at least 2 relays of shooters and two yardages with one man doing the scoring by your method. See how it works and let us know. At most IBS score matches, the scorer can shoot the match and score the targets...both if they need or want to. It does matter that a club be registered in this context because of procedures that have to be followed and time constraints that most informal clubs do not have to respect. You have alot to say about this, and you are advocating a change that , until someone does it that way, we simply won't know if it's feasible or not. As stated, I shoot IBS. IBS VFS is not broken. It needs no fix yet, and I have no gain from doing this for you, so please don't throw it back on me. It would possibly benefit me at some point by having another place to shoot but as it stands I have more places to shoot IBS VFS than I have time or money to do nearby. You say you have a club, so just do it there or please try not to be so assertive about it until you do. I wasn't being elitest. Hopefully you can see why it matters to be under the same constraints in this context.
Peace!
--Mike

 

[mike in co]

Mike, You only responded to the first part of my post. I guess it did ruffle your feathers. How bout the rest? Put up or shut up. Put on a match at your club, with at least 2 relays of shooters and two yardages with one man doing the scoring by your method. See how it works and let us know. At most IBS score matches, the scorer can shoot the match and score the targets...both if they need or want to. It does matter that a club be registered in this context because of procedures that have to be followed and time constraints that most informal clubs do not have to respect. You have alot to say about this, and you are advocating a change that , until someone does it that way, we simply won't know if it's feasible or not. As stated, I shoot IBS. IBS VFS is not broken. It needs no fix yet, and I have no gain from doing this for you, so please don't throw it back on me. It would possibly benefit me at some point by having another place to shoot but as it stands I have more places to shoot IBS VFS than I have time or money to do nearby. You say you have a club, so just do it there or please try not to be so assertive about it until you do. I wasn't being elitest. Hopefully you can see why it matters to be under the same constraints in this context.
Peace!
--Mike

i think you missed the boat...
this is JACKIE'S suggestion, and i support it. it is not my idea, so why dont you make your proposal to jackie ???

i already run one club br match and shoot in another.

no gonna happen.....

why not just run one relay at one yardage, alon wiht another match...just to see how it goes...??

you could do that....

and like a couple other people on this board.....you dont run my life....your idea is not a requirement for me.
sorry you are still missing the point....
peace and love....

mike in co

 

[mks]

It doesn't have to be all about mistakes.

....I'd say it's all about doing away with mistakes. --Mike

Mike,
I agree. That's one of the things I think is "broken" in IBS score. 24 of your shots could be better than the winner's shots, but if one misses the 10 ring, you are relegated to the "also ran" pack. Losing a match based on 24 winning shots and one losing shot doesn't make sense to me. A smaller 10 ring, or scoring worst edge, could provide the added resolution to show that your 24 shots were better - it would be reflected in your score and you would likely win the match, as you deserve to.

I see that 38 of the 57(?) places at VFS 100 yards at the IBS nationals were determined by Creedmoor - yet another reason to use more of the scoring scale, not just the upper end. Let the shooters win by shooting higher scores, not by drawing straws.

I hope NBRSA starts their score program with more difficult targets and scoring that does not favor one size bullet over another. It would be interesting to see which system eventually attracted the most shooters.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[David Halblom]

UI have stayed out of this so far

Mike,
I agree. That's one of the things I think is "broken" in IBS score. 24 of your shots could be better than the winner's shots, but if one misses the 10 ring, you are relegated to the "also ran" pack. Losing a match based on 24 winning shots and one losing shot doesn't make sense to me. A smaller 10 ring, or scoring worst edge, could provide the added resolution to show that your 24 shots were better - it would be reflected in your score and you would likely win the match, as you deserve to.

I see that 38 of the 57(?) places at VFS 100 yards at the IBS nationals were determined by Creedmoor - yet another reason to use more of the scoring scale, not just the upper end. Let the shooters win by shooting higher scores, not by drawing straws.

I hope NBRSA starts their score program with more difficult targets and scoring that does not favor one size bullet over another. It would be interesting to see which system eventually attracted the most shooters.

Cheers,
Keith

because I had a lot of more important issues to deal w/ than the ridiculous directions this thread has gone. Now that I am done running the IBS Score Nationals, and before I go to the NBRSA Group Nationals, as well as the BOD meeting, I AM GOING to wade into this issue.

Score shooting is ABOUT hitting a VERY defined point in space 5 TIMES. It is about resetting your rifle's point of aim FIVE times for score. It is NOT about making 5 shots that are VERY close to one another. That is GROUP shooting.

As to dropping a point and being out of the running, ask Greg Swezey if he gave up after he dropped his first point either at the NBRSA Nationals or the IBS Nationals. If so, he would NOT be the Hunter Champion of BOTH organizations. And THAT IS an Honor that ONLY ONE other person has been able to achieve in 1 year, Jim Engle. And only 1 other person has ever done it, Wayne Corley, in 2 different years.

Now as to the 250-25x issue, Come on out an try it. there have only been 17 or so 250-25's shot and verified in competition so far. Since 1982, when VFS was instituted in the IBS. And as for this year, in over 100 registered matches, there have only been 2, yes 2, shot this year. So, those who think 250-25 is a "regular" occurence, come on out and prove your mettle.

Wilbur, this one may push the limits

Those of you who shoot score on a regular basis know what the reality is. Those who are "keyboard shooters", go pick on the 1000 yard or 600 yard shooters. And group shooters, PLEASE come out to a score match and shoot it under competition conditions before you gewt on your high-horse and pontificate as to what should be happenning. Until you have experience in the game, you have no idea of the reality of what happens. ANd 10 year old experience is NOT applicable in today's game. If you have not shot a score match, HBR, VH, or VFS in the last 10 years, you have NO idea of the level of competition that is present today!

Flame on. You had better be wearing Nomex!

 

[MRL]

You know regardless of caliber 22,6. or 30 regardless of the target. Bottom line is the better shooter is still going to win. Maybe we should "punish" the better shooters for being commited to sucess? OR maybe do like kid sports and give everybody trophys for showing up.

 

[David Halblom]

You know regardless of caliber 22,6. or 30 regardless of the target. Bottom line is the better shooter is still going to win. Maybe we should "punish" the better shooters for being commited to sucess? OR maybe do like kid sports and give everybody trophys for showing up.

You may have touched on the real issue here. Some people are not prpared to be second best before they enter into a competition. I have to shoot w/ some of the best in the country every time I show up for a match. World record holders, National Champions, past and present. Guess that means I don't have a chance. LIKE HELL! Makes the few wins I have all the sweeter!

Every time we sign up for a match, someone will win, EVERYONE else will lose. Fact of life. Get a grip on the reality and scratch, fight, spit, kick nuts, bite, do everything you can to win......FAIR. AND then congratulate the winner, or receive the congratulations, and move on to the next match. Anything less is snivelling and it is beneath all of us!

 

[AJ300MAG]

I see that 38 of the 57(?) places at VFS 100 yards at the IBS nationals were determined by Creedmoor - yet another reason to use more of the scoring scale, not just the upper end. Let the shooters win by shooting higher scores, not by drawing straws.

Please explain to me how Creedmore is akin to "drawing straws"?


EVERYONE has the opportunity to shoot 5"X" on the first and every target, EVERYONE can start at bull #1 and work their way through ending at bull #5.

 

[Butch Lambert]

David I agree with you. I love it when the typewriter shooters cry elitest. They don't have anything else they can say.
Butch

 

[mwezell]

Mike,
I agree. That's one of the things I think is "broken" in IBS score. 24 of your shots could be better than the winner's shots, but if one misses the 10 ring, you are relegated to the "also ran" pack. Losing a match based on 24 winning shots and one losing shot doesn't make sense to me. A smaller 10 ring, or scoring worst edge, could provide the added resolution to show that your 24 shots were better - it would be reflected in your score and you would likely win the match, as you deserve to.

I see that 38 of the 57(?) places at VFS 100 yards at the IBS nationals were determined by Creedmoor - yet another reason to use more of the scoring scale, not just the upper end. Let the shooters win by shooting higher scores, not by drawing straws.

I hope NBRSA starts their score program with more difficult targets and scoring that does not favor one size bullet over another. It would be interesting to see which system eventually attracted the most shooters.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith, there are big mistakes and little mistakes....I make plenty of both. The big ones might cost you a point and the smaller ones are what usually defines who wins and loses in any shooting sport that I can think of. I probably should be listening to you more though, as you've been shooting VERY well of late. Have you been practicing with those smaller targets or what? --Mike

 

[David Halblom]

Well............the

David I agree with you. I love it when the typewriter shooters cry elitest. They don't have anything else they can say.
Butch

post before yours had an interesting statement. Since he was NOT the statistician, how the hell could he know that 38 of the positions were determined by creedmore? Funny thing, I was able to get the finals out in less than 5 minutes after the Grand was shot. And the Creedmores were a lot less than I expected. As I remember, there were 6 ties to be broken, top to bottom, on Friday. Out of 58 shooters, some of the best in the country, I consider that to be a damn good competition!

 

[Dave Dowd]

Question

Under the current IBS rules. If a man was to show up at a match shooting a .20 caliber and lets say this man was the best shooter there and had a hot barrel. What would his chance be of winning. Dave

 

[mwezell]

I'd say it depends upon how much better he is than the 2nd best shooter there. He'd be giving up quite a bit in bullet diameter to a good shooting 30 or 6 either one. I also think that if it's your day, it's your day, and a good shooter with a good gun will be hard to beat regardless of the caliber.--Mike

 

[mks]

post before yours had an interesting statement. Since he was NOT the statistician, how the hell could he know that 38 of the positions were determined by creedmore? Funny thing, I was able to get the finals out in less than 5 minutes after the Grand was shot. And the Creedmores were a lot less than I expected. As I remember, there were 6 ties to be broken, top to bottom, on Friday. Out of 58 shooters, some of the best in the country, I consider that to be a damn good competition!

David,
Thanks for posting the results so quickly. Wish I could have been there. If I counted correctly from the posted results, 38 of the VFS 100 yard shooters were involved in ties that were decided by Creedmoor. The reason for my question mark after 57 was that Jim Wooten and Neal Bickley were on the list twice, so I wasn't quite sure of the total number of shooters.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[mks]

Lots to learn

Keith, there are big mistakes and little mistakes....I make plenty of both. The big ones might cost you a point and the smaller ones are what usually defines who wins and loses in any shooting sport that I can think of. I probably should be listening to you more though, as you've been shooting VERY well of late. Have you been practicing with those smaller targets or what? --Mike

Mike,
I appreciate the compliment, but I've still got lots to learn, from you and everyone else.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[mks]

Please explain to me how Creedmore is akin to "drawing straws"?


EVERYONE has the opportunity to shoot 5"X" on the first and every target, EVERYONE can start at bull #1 and work their way through ending at bull #5.

AJ,
My choice of words may be a bit dramatic to make a point, but still, no one has yet forwarded a coherent strategy for hitting X's early and missing them late. My point is that compared to winning by scoring higher or hitting more X's, winning by Creedmoor is largely a matter of luck.

Cheers,
Keith