A couple of stock questions...??

Jim,

I see that ssome of the things are somewhat constant, but there is always the variables.

Length of pull is measured from trigger shoe to back of butt plate. The trigger shoe can be movable on some triggers.

The length of barrel ahead of the boltface is fine, but the length of the bolt itself can change from one action to another, which moves the resulting angle because the barrel can be moved forward or back based on the length of the action, such as the difference in the Bat 6 1/2, 7 1/2 & 8 1/2, and others.

What I mean is, there is no real constant point to measure from on any action. Maybe a better definition would be to just not be less than a fixed angle based on the centerline of the bore and call it good.

However this angle should be small enough to take in the proponderence of various stocks now being produced and in common use by benchrest shooters.

Thank you for your willingness to participate in this discussion.

Sincerely,
Larry
 
LARRY FEUSSE said:
What is to keep an enterprising individule from making a stock and front bag design with 6 in high sides?

I would suggest that a 3/4 in. maximum would be good.

Sincerely,
Larry
Click to expand...

No, less and more concise wording is best in rule making.

If someone wants to make a 6 inch high stock side and incurr the weight and torque penalty, than so be it.

If I had my way we would only have weight limits to distinguish classes, everything else is good to go..............unleash the creative minds instead of hindering productivity thru artificial and arbatrary rules and regulations...................Don
 
Tell that to

If I had my way we would only have weight limits to distinguish classes, everything else is good to go..............unleash the creative minds instead of hindering productivity thru artificial and arbatrary rules and regulations...................Don[/QUOTE]

Nascar, IndyCar, Formula 1, NHRA, IHRA, IPSC, ATA, just about any sanctioning body for any competitive sport you want to imagine. The idea is to set a set of criteria and then do your best within those constraints. If you want "no holds barred" then shoot Unlimited (NBRSA) or Heavy Bench (IBS).
 
Great idea F - - -

FBecigneul said:
If one wants to be creative and come out with something really new, it would seem the thing to do would be to create a class that is lighter in weight than what we have now. Anybody can come up with ideas for bigger and heavier. This was not the intent of Larry's thread and I apologize for bringing the soapbox to the front. Back to my cave.
Click to expand...

Often there is some discussion about the Sporter Class, how about making that one a 7.5 LB class, like with the RF classes and see how creative we can get there. Limit the forend to 1.75" wide.That should at least make things "Sporting". :D
 
Stock rear angle

I am bringing this thread back to the top to help answer the questions presented on the other ongoing thread of the same topic.

I feel that making the angle on the bottom of the stock a certain number of degrees of angle as it relates to he bore and at a minimum of 4 inches below the bore at the butt plate is the best solution in order to be inclusive of the stocks that are currently being used that are slightly outside of the requirements as the rules are currently written. I could expand on this more if someone were interested.

Sincerely,
Larry
 
LARRY FEUSSE said:
I am bringing this thread back to the top to help answer the questions presented on the other ongoing thread of the same topic.

I feel that making the angle on the bottom of the stock a certain number of degrees of angle as it relates to he bore and at a minimum of 4 inches below the bore at the butt plate is the best solution in order to be inclusive of the stocks that are currently being used that are slightly outside of the requirements as the rules are currently written. I could expand on this more if someone were interested.

Sincerely,
Larry
Click to expand...

Larry could you PLEASE expand on this! I'm laying up a HBR stock as we speak and the front is almost done. The back is yet to do, drop-angles-width etc ALL open to interpretation.

Ideally I'd like a flat keel 4"-5" below the boreline but if not then I need not an angle but a "drop" and then "distance to intersection with the bore" ruling which I know exists but I haven't been able to find the ruling online and I'm too butt lazy to go digging for my printed rulebooks.

Thank you Larry for bringing this up top!

al
 
My advice is this.......

At some point the "powers that be" will decide that this uncertainty is not good, and when they do they will likely make rules that are explained well and that can be easily followed. When that happens it is likely also that the new rules will be very similar to the configuration we have all been relying on for years. It is my opinion, and I am making 3 new gunstocks for my own use as we speak, that we should design our bottom rear stock angles so that they are in conformance to the current rules regulating the HV/LV class of rifles, even if we are making a Hunter class rifle stock. In this way we will not have to take a belt sander to our beautiful new stocks:eek: that were designed to the outer limits just so we could make a point or try to gain some slight, perceived in our own minds, advantage.

I hope this helps, if not I can add many more words.:rolleyes:

Sincerely,
Larry
 
LARRY FEUSSE said:
At some point the "powers that be" will decide that this uncertainty is not good, and when they do they will likely make rules that are explained well and that can be easily followed. When that happens it is likely also that the new rules will be very similar to the configuration we have all been relying on for years. It is my opinion, and I am making 3 new gunstocks for my own use as we speak, that we should design our bottom rear stock angles so that they are in conformance to the current rules regulating the HV/LV class of rifles, even if we are making a Hunter class rifle stock. In this way we will not have to take a belt sander to our beautiful new stocks:eek: that were designed to the outer limits just so we could make a point or try to gain some slight, perceived in our own minds, advantage.

I hope this helps, if not I can add many more words.:rolleyes:

Sincerely,
Larry
Click to expand...

Do you know the listed drop @ LOP and distance to point of intersection with the bore?

thanks

al
 
Yes

From the centerline of the bore you must go down at least 4" on a 13 1/4 " length of pull (from the trigger shoe to the back of the butt plate), then from that point go forward to a point at no more than 18" forward from the bolt face in order to make the flattest allowable angle. Now here is a variable for you to consider, in IBS that point is to the center of the barrel and in the NBRSA that point is to the bottom of the barrel. The NBRSA allows a flatter angle. Since this is such a hard thing to measure and since there are many stocks on the market and in common use that are of questionable legality for use in the IBS, these dimensions are somewhat intentionally never challenged. By saying that, it may be passible to make your new stock in conformance to NBRSA dimensions and never have them challenged in IBS. I know that if anyone ever challenged one of my guns and then told me it was illegal, I would immediately protest every gun on the line and see how many more were also illegal. I don't think anyone would intentionally ever want to start that chain of events. It would be catastrophic!

That is why I suggested that both organizations change their rules to a more easily measurable standard, and make it such that it would be inclusive of all the stocks that see frequent use in our sport. That way everyone's stock would be legal and any new stocks being made could be brought to the new standard and be easy to check.

Hope this is helpful.

Larry
 
My Word Larry

You're not actually suggesting that some Gray be removed from the books are you? What would we have to talk about winters without the Gray? :D
 
Reason for the Rule

If you go back in the Archives, or get a hold of some literature from way back when, you will see that there was always a concern for those in Benchrest that the equipment resemble what the public considered a "Rifle". I suppose they figured all Rifles should have some drop at the bottom of the butt stock, hence the rule.

We sort of depend on the major stock manufactureres to produce an item that is legal, just like we depend on the Barrel Manufactirers to furnish us with barrel blanks that will meet the rules.

Of course, if a stock is on the ragged edge of being legal, a builder can render it illegal by the way the barreled action is glued in, since the measurements are predicated on the straight line coming out of the bore of the barrel.

Most just see that a stock has some taper at the bottom of the butt stock, and let it go. I have never seen a Match Director check this at a match. But, if someone showed up at a match with, say a Shehane Tracker, which obviously is straight at the bottomof the butt, then it would be challenged.

Nobody has of yet answered my question as to what consitutes a barrel block as it pretains to the rules in the NBRSA and IBS Rule Books. I guess I will have to petition my Region Director for this to get an official definition from the BOD's.......jackie
 
By measuring some the most popular actions and doing a little geometry, one can calulate the angles. I have measured what I had handy to illustrate.

1. Bat 6.5-7.5 from BF to trigger=4.525 results in 6 degrees, 25 minutes
2. Rem xp 100 w/ 700 trigger from bf to trigger= 5.400" results in 6 deg.16 min
3.Rem 700 and most clones, bf to trigger= 6.00" results in 6 deg 10 min.
4. Savage short action, bf to trigger= 6.3" results in 6 deg. 5 min.

The Bat, being the shortest has the highest angle, and to use this as a benchmark, it would be more uniform and easier to measure if the angle was specified and not the general formula. Something like 6.5 or 7 degrees could apply to everything. Stocks in question could be measured with a digital protractor.
 
From the IBS long range rules: "Whenever the rifle makes contact on its sides, there may be a maximum of sand one-half inch high and a minimum of one-half thick on each side"

Is this possibly what you were referring to?
 
Just my 2 cents...

It is in my opinion (just opinion & I can be wrong!), that IF offset stocks can track fine, any stocks that have parallel foreend and buttstock can also track fine, or better. IMO, the key is parallel (only). This if we don't talk about other things such as stock/rifle balance, torque thing, rigidity, bags setup, slickness etc. Things getting complicated if we talk further, such as regarding to the rules etc, ain't it?

Personally, I don't think that extra tall ears or extra tall side foreend would make the stock/rifle more stable or track better on bags, OR so. You need slickness in this case, you don't want your foreend get "bitten" by the ears/bag, also remember that we only shoot a specific- light weight rifle, here. I think the important thing is how to make the center of gravity of your scoped/finished rifle to be as low as possible, and how to make it tracks and balanced fine.
When I built my "swallowtail" stock sometime ago, I found that the stock rules (eiter from IBS / NBRSA / WBSF - for the point blank/short range shooting) actually limited me to make a stock that is more "wild". Some BASIC limitations / "formulas" there, that we must obey,...even we do not understand exactly why...
(Many folks even thought that my stock (would be) considered "illegal", but Kelby installed the stock for me and I shot it without problem/protest etc in the Supershoot. I am sure Kelby woud not install my stock if it's illegal/not right).

So,...I think every ones can be as "wild" or to the wildest imagination when building a stock & other things (and many of us like it!) - but that is as long as still meets the rules,... as long as do not intend to ignore/break the rules.


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!

seb.
 
Sharpshooter,

I agree with your analysis that the distance from the trigger to the bolt face is the variable that can make the difference between a stock being legal or not. If an action is real long, the stock may be measured as legal. Or if the action is real short, the same stock may be measured as illegal. That is why your assertion that a specific angle as it relates to the bore is, as I also suggested, the fairest way to limit the stock dimensions.

I have also measured the angle on many stocks and have found that they mostly fall into the 6 to 8 degree catagory, with the 6 degree ones being not legal with most actions.

I would point out, however that your suggestion of 6.5 to 7 degrees would make most stocks illegal. If you will look at it again, I am sure you will see that a better suggestion woud be 5.5 to 6 degrees as a minimum. In this way all the commonly used stocks would still be considered legal and new stocks could be designed to a more predictable standard without having to take into consideration the potential for variations in action length.

Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion.

Sincerely,
Larry
 
Stock Rules

These rules are a joke. With the advance of tecnical stuff we have today. As I remember it the angel is somewhere close to 6 deg. and we are measuring from a point we can't see, with a loose fitting cleaning rod and bore guide in an action that may or may not be in the stock correctly. A close fitting (to the action) rod and a machined angle plate that would check that angle is the only way your going to know for sure.
Bob Dodd
 
Larry, I see what you're saying....granting amnesty to illegal stocks is alot easier than making everyone conform.;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top