30BR vs 6ppc stiring the pot...

E

eww1350

Guest
I have been pondering the Score shooting (VFS) and group shooting data...and it seems strange to me that the 30BR would dominate score shooting when the 6ppc holds a distinct edge in accuracy....here is how my small mind thinks..:rolleyes:...a HV 6ppc in avg. conditions in the hands of a compitent shooter will agg. @ 100 yds..180"-.220" a 30BR in the same theoretical match condtions will agg...240"-.330+"
Now take away the caliber difference and the 6ppc with its less recoil, torque
and less bag upset should be the dominant caliber in the score game..especially at 200 yds...:confused::rolleyes:
I have read the comments of several accomplished shooters stating that the 30BR just won't agg. good enough to be competitive with the 6ppc...so take away the caliber difference from the agg. and it would look like the 6ppc would be the runaway favorite...
Yes I know the score target has a 1/2" and 1" diameter ten ring...and best edge scoring is used...etc...etc..etc..
But you still have all the center to center advantage of the 6ppc and the better handling manners...one would surmise the 6ppc would have the advantage...I would if I were doing a data comparison decision...:)
If most group shooters are chasing the first bullet hole to acomplish a small group wouldn't that be the same as holding to hit the 10 ring...?

Your thoughts.?

Eddie in Texas
 
My thoughts

are, if you show up at a match with a gun that aggs .330+, you're in for a long day. --Mike
 
.30 BR versus 6PPC in score

Eww1350


I am not sure all your assumptions are correct.

First of all I dont think the agging capability difference between .30 and 6PPC is as large as you suggests. What it is I dont know but probably not .070-.100

Lets assume hypothetically that they are equally accurate. Then the .308 would have the advantage of .308-.243= 065 /2 =0.0325 ( the advantage of fatter bullet only works in one direction right ) So a .30 BR can shoot 0.0325larger aggregates than a 6PPC but still have an equal chance neglecting more recoil, difference in ballistic etc.

So is this the difference in accuracy of a 6PPC and .308 or is it less or more ?
No one knows yet. But in a hard core Benchrest competition a difference in aggregate of .0325 is quite a bit.

6PPC s have shot good scores and still do. But perhaps it is psycological advantage to se those large holes punch the paper and perhaps a "fad" or "trend" has something to do with the development of .30 BR dominance of the score shooting Alternatively accuracy difference of 6PPC versus .30BR is less than .0325.
 
Isn't it about the cost of things ?

6PPC - barrel short life (1500rnds) hard to keep in tune.

30BR - easy to load - easy keep in tune - great barrel life (6000rnds)

I have shot 22Xes with both of them - but I am not the good of a shot yet. I just like to go to the match pre loaded and not worry about things... I need to think about, and become friends with the wind.


JR :D
 
Eddie

As you know, I have been shooting my 30BR in a few yardages in Registered Group Matches.

Now, I am yet to win anything, but, at every yardage I have shot, I have beat 95 percent of the 6PPC Shooters. And, every time I shoot it, I learn a little more.

I am pretty well convinced that the 30 will shoot just as accurate as a 6mm, or anything else, for that matter. But, any experienced shooter will tell you that there is a difference in accuracy and agging capability.

First, I pay no attention to "scores" as in scoreshooting when trying to decide the future of my 30 cal endevours. If a shooter shoots a 250-25x, that means nothing to me as far as group goes, because you can still kiss the X on each side and the bullets still be .320 apart.

What I am doing is the right approach, (in my opinion). Sit down, and shoot groups, and give yourself an honest measurememt.

Remember when I shot the Unlimited at Seymour, 8 10-shot groups??. Every record shot, all 80 at 100, were 10's. and I still ended up with a .312 agg. I shot several groups, dead on the moth ball, that all would have scored 10 X's, but the group measured about .310.

I think I have improved the accuracy since that match. The 118 seems to shoot tighter. The groups I shot last week end tend to point this out. It has been a while since I was able to just sit down and shoot that well.

More shooters need to do what I am doing. Get a 30, and shoot it with the intention of winning Group Matches. You start out with the premis that in order to do this, you have got to get it shooting at a sub .200 level.

Sitting down and shooting 10's, and even X's, will not cut it. Group is a different game, and if you want to shoot group, you have to go with what has a realistic chance of winning.

I just called Bruno, and will have a 18 twist Krieger barrel for my HV by Friday. I have an excellent 17 twist on the HV now, but I think the 18 might, (now, that is a big might), have a tad of an advantage with the bullets we are shooting.

It takes time, and money, to find this stuff out. I am not relying on what others are saying, I am putting forth the effort to find out for myself. I do valuethe info that others have garnered over the years, but I think if you are going to make a serious effort at Group Shooting, you have to get into "group mentality".

One of the first things I found was dispelling that myth about the 30, "never having to change the tune". Well, that might be right in score, when you can still shoot 20 X"s, but when the groups open up to .300 verticle, or starts popping a shot about one bullet hole against the condition, you better do something.

Perhaps that is what more shooters need to be doing, rather than just talking about it.

Here is an added note. Non Benchrest Shooters are always lamenting about how we all shoot the same thing, that evil little 6PPC. No creativity. Right now, the only chambering that will agg as well, (that is proven), is the 22PPC Short. But, the Sporter rule makes most shy away from it, not to mention the aggravation in making those cases. The 30BR is probably the next alternative. The real drawback is the recoil. In a HV, it is not bad at all. But, you are only fooling yourself when you don't recognize that in a 10.5 pound Rifle, it does get noticeable as the week end drags on.

Of course, there is no cure for that, a 118 grn bullet at 3000+ is going to generate a certain amount of recoil. I need to get over to Carters Country and get one of those thin pads that soak up the felt recoil. That will help a lot......jackie
 
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Jackie, I think you're right on. Not enough data from enough people has been accumulated so far to make accurate descisions. Keep up the good work and maybe more people will get on the bandwagon. Thanks for your efforts. Al.
 
Mwezel

Aha, that is the magic statement. Contray to wht is read about the 6PPC on this Forum, and just about any publication, the majority at any match are not tuned to 'agg in the teens'.

It ain't that easy.........jackie
 
Jacke

jackie schmidt said:
Aha, that is the magic statement. Contray to wht is read about the 6PPC on this Forum, and just about any publication, the majority at any match are not tuned to 'agg in the teens'.

It ain't that easy.........jackie
Click to expand...

Ok. but...A 6 only has to be able to agg a .305 to be "in tune" enough to shoot a mere 25x's. This brings us to the adage of "the first shot is free" in group doesn't it?;)--Mike Ezell
 
lol. This is a funny discussion but just because the first shot in group may be free doesn't mean you can't put it where you want it. ;) But, even if you can have a .3xx agg and still shoot 25 zeros there is almost no one who could hold that precisely everytime in any condition. Just a thought!

Matthew S Keller
 
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Question

eww1350 said:
I have been pondering the Score shooting (VFS) and group shooting data...and it seems strange to me that the 30BR would dominate score shooting when the 6ppc holds a distinct edge in accuracy....here is how my small mind thinks..:rolleyes:...a HV 6ppc in avg. conditions in the hands of a compitent shooter will agg. @ 100 yds..180"-.220" a 30BR in the same theoretical match condtions will agg...240"-.330+"
Now take away the caliber difference and the 6ppc with its less recoil, torque
and less bag upset should be the dominant caliber in the score game..especially at 200 yds...:confused::rolleyes:
I have read the comments of several accomplished shooters stating that the 30BR just won't agg. good enough to be competitive with the 6ppc...so take away the caliber difference from the agg. and it would look like the 6ppc would be the runaway favorite...
Yes I know the score target has a 1/2" and 1" diameter ten ring...and best edge scoring is used...etc...etc..etc..
But you still have all the center to center advantage of the 6ppc and the better handling manners...one would surmise the 6ppc would have the advantage...I would if I were doing a data comparison decision...:)
If most group shooters are chasing the first bullet hole to acomplish a small group wouldn't that be the same as holding to hit the 10 ring...?

Your thoughts.?

Eddie in Texas
Click to expand...

Eddie,
Where did you get your data from??? Giving everyone your source of information would be helpful so we could attempt to surmise like you did.
DA
 
No disrespect intended, but, you can theorize how a group agg should correlate to a score agg all day long.....but the reality is.....in score the record targets are 5.5" apart which means there is a lot of interplay between the rifle and the bags.....this is the zone where $#*! happens. Do not discount this aspect of the game.
And Numbers 3 and 4 targets are 12.5" from the sighter.
Plus the additional time it takes to execute this moving around the target.....even more difficult to get all the shots in the same condition.
Add to all this the strategy of which sequence to shoot the targets.....and that 30 Aardvark (shooting Hunter Class) on the bench next to you just moved your dot 1/4 "..........What a game!
 
Exceptionally well stated

LHSmith said:
No disrespect intended, but, you can theorize how a group agg should correlate to a score agg all day long.....but the reality is.....in score the record targets are 5.5" apart which means there is a lot of interplay between the rifle and the bags.....this is the zone where $#*! happens. Do not discount this aspect of the game.
And Numbers 3 and 4 targets are 12.5" from the sighter.
Plus the additional time it takes to execute this moving around the target.....even more difficult to get all the shots in the same condition.
Add to all this the strategy of which sequence to shoot the targets.....and that 30 Aardvark (shooting Hunter Class) on the bench next to you just moved your dot 1/4 "..........What a game!
Click to expand...


The big differences are the TIME and SPACE involved. Also, there is no way back from a bad match target, unlike Group, unless of course EVERYONE has a bad one; not likely. Shoot a 249-24 and where will you end up? Just behind the guy who got 250-0.
 
Pete Wass said:
The big differences are the TIME and SPACE involved. Also, there is no way back from a bad match target, unlike Group, unless of course EVERYONE has a bad one; not likely. Shoot a 249-24 and where will you end up? Just behind the guy who got 250-0.
Click to expand...

I dont know much about Score shooting (heck, even group BR), as I only shot one registered match on IBS School in East Tawas in June 2008. But, in my opinion, any gun competition that in the end is a match of numbers of X, is not good to atract new shooters.

It may sound stupid, but I think in the next years there will be some change on the rings, to turn them smaller, so the match will be again on points, not Xs.

Said this, I would like to say that I liked very much Score BR!!

... In fact, on that IBS Score Match, I shot a 6PPC from Joe Krupa. And if my memory does not fail... from almost 30 shooters, the first 3 or 4 first places was all shot with 6PPCs (very well tunned)! ;)
 
In a lot of competitions X's are counted. I can't see why it would make a difference to someone wanting to start in Score BR.
 
toDavid Apple..."
Eddie,Where did you get your data from??? Giving everyone your source of information would be helpful so we could attempt to surmise like you did."

David...I looked at all of the match results I could find from match reports on these forums and IBS websites...the 30BR group data is limited...and I used discussion on this forum about the agging capability of the 30BR...
No it is not scientific/spreadsheet type data but pretty close to reality...
The 6ppc is the "ONE" in group shooting why wouldn't it work as well in score shooting..???
The 30BR does not show up a serious contender in group shooting, but is the
"ONE" in score shooting...
I am looking at the agging capability of a given cartridge being a good indicator of its ability to shoot any discipline (100/200 yds) equally well...
 
MRL said:
In a lot of competitions X's are counted. I can't see why it would make a difference to someone wanting to start in Score BR.
Click to expand...

I dont know if your post was a response of my post. In any case, I dont see a problem on counting the X.

The problem is when the match is always won based on X count. Not on points.
This happened on F-Class a few years ago. They changed the score rings for smaller ones.

This happened on ISSF smallbore rifle matches. And they reduced the size of the rings (I think more than once...) until it is just a dot. Now they have points for the ten ring (10.1 to 10.9), but in this particular case, in order to compute these points, the targets are electronic.
 
.25shooter said:
Eww1350


Then the .308 would have the advantage of .308-.243= 065 /2 =0.0325 ( the advantage of fatter bullet only works in one direction right ) So a .30 BR can shoot 0.0325larger aggregates than a 6PPC but still have an equal chance neglecting more recoil, difference in ballistic etc.
Click to expand...

Picture a bullet hole just touching the dot on the left and another just touching on the right. The advantage is the full difference in diameter. For an 0.0625" dot, the 30 can group 0.3705", while the 6mm must group 0.3055".

Cheers,
Keith
 
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