30BR at the NBRSA Nationals

I can't wait too see the targets. When will they be posted. As I recall the field measurment was considerably under Rex's Record shot back in what....1982 or thereabouts.

Donald
 
Here's a brilliant idea for you 6mm wussies and 30 cal aficionados. Shoot a #1 Easter Buckshot, patched. It weighs 40.5 grains (plus the patch) and makes the same size hole as a 30 cal bullet.
 
Al Nyhus said:
Not to mention that Jackie Schmidt and his 30BR shot the smallest Agg. in NBRSA history. :)
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Yes, and Terry Meyer and I held that set of targets in our grubby hands . . . and, using three different scoring devices, measured them . . . HHhhMmmmmmm . . . :p

Following receipt of the pictures of the targets, I just 'HAD' to have them to measure for my self - Jackie was kind enough to part with them, and trust them to my care.

Upon receipt, they were measured, using two 'official' (group) scoring devices, and the 'hillbilly' (calipers minus .298" - the average bullet-hole diameter) by four individuals, one of whom had never seen a group measuring device.

His result was most interesting: following some instruction, and advice to place the thirty caliber reticle over several individual bullet-holes - in order to see how the holes SHOULD 'fit' the reticle - he was turned loose with the targets, the device (our 'ol River City group measuring tool), and an ink pen - his result was within 0.004" of the range measured 0.1118, (which, for future reference, I will round up to .112 :eek:): that Agg. came out to a rounded-up 0.107!:cool:

Another teaser:
of our 11 measurements, the largest Aggregate was 0.122. Following the tally, the measurer stated, "I sure didn't want to give him anything." :( Note, the scorer should neither give, nor take. :) Even this AGG was just over the default protest value (0.009") required to either enlarge,or, reduce the size of a posted target or, AGG. I will, if I can obtain some help, post a new thread, including the pics which I initially received - Virg can you post them? BTW - ALL of our measurements (AGGS) were within +/- 0.010" of the range measured .112".


Two conclusions cam be drawn from this experience: With all the banter about group shooting being more precise than score shooting, I'd say that just the opposite is correct: the outcome of a score event is MUCH more precise and CLEAR than the outcome at a group event. In a discipline where precision is the watch-word, how can the discrepancy, between a range measured AGGREGATE and the Records Committee AGG., amount to over 0.040"?:confused: In short, at group events, there is seldom REAL winner . . . how would you like to loose HoF points by just a couple of measly thou? :p This points out the need to 'fix' an antiquated scoring system, long out performed by our equipment . . . or, we could just give everyone within 0.01" a first place trophy! :cool: When it comes to precision measurement of targets/Aggs., human error & judgement need to go the way of the Dodo . . .

The second conclusion: Jackie Schmidt's range measured .112" AGG IS the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard event!:eek::cool: This is inarguable . . . a truly GREAT shooting exhibition. Well done, Jackie! :cool: RG
 
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a side question.....about the process. the records committee is how many people ? i thought i heard 5 ?

so not only is it significantly larger than the range measurement....but it is actually much bigger...in that the (5) person average is plus .04..........

i do not see how one qualified person can miss a measurement by .04.....

jackie and i are both from machinist background..... you may miss a measurement by .0005 when measureing small stuff....worst case by a whole .001. this is hard fixed stuff shafts, bushings and such. holes in paper are harder to deal with .....but not by a factor of 40........

it would appear we need to update the system.......
please note...i am not throwning stones at the committee.
it is the tools and the process.
when ten or more people measure one set of holes and cannot agree within 0.040 on the size...the process is broken.


mike in co
 
when the pic's are posted please put a scale in the pic..........a 308 bullet...a 6mm bullet.

as things move.....size can be distorted.....

mike i n co
 
The second conclusion: Jackie Schmidt's range measured .112" AGG IS the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard event! This is inarguable . . . a truly GREAT shooting exhibition. Well done, Jackie! RG
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Randy, after reading all that you wrote above, in simple language, was this a new record?? (I'm in agreement this was great shooting, but???)

Thanks
 
R.G. Robinett said:
The second conclusion: Jackie Schmidt's range measured .112" AGG IS the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard event!:eek::cool: This is inarguable . . . a truly GREAT shooting exhibition. Well done, Jackie! :cool: RG
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This is all about "the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard".
Not one group but 5 groups....Just wanta make sure.
Tim B.
 
RG,

right on.

I continually tell Mike and Rabon, "the HUMAN element must be eliminated"!
 
Jerry, I am sitting here at lunch, reading this, and I can answer your question with authority.

NO, IT IS NOT A NEW RECORD, BECAUSE IN ORDER FOR SOMETHING TO BE A RECORD IT MUST PASS THE SCRUTINY OF THE RECORDS COMMITTEE. That proccess is over and done. The targets did not make it.

Granted, when I recieved the targets back, and looked at them, (keep in mind, I never actually saw all five as they were removed from the wailing wall for fear of damage) , I was taken aback, because they sure looked good to me. I am not stupid, I can measure a target. I also took them up to the Tomball Gun Club and had quite a few shooters, using our official scoring device, measure them, and everybody comes up with numbers that are more in line with the originol range measurements.

That is why I decided to get a ;learned opinion, and sent them to Randy.

But do keep in mind, the NBRSA has a strict chain of evidence structure, the minute I took poccession of those targets, the chain of evidence was broken.

That is why I have stated that for all considerations, they will be posted simply so everybody can take a look at what a 30BR is capable of. Any conclusions that shooters draw as to what they believe that actually measure is theirs and theirs alone, it has nothing to do with records, The NBRSA, or any other official standings.

They simply represent a great agg shot with a 30BR............JACKIE
 
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JerrySharrett said:
Randy, after reading all that you wrote above, in simple language, was this a new record?? (I'm in agreement this was great shooting, but???)

Thanks
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not an offical record for the sanctioning body...but it is still the smallest .....100yd 5x5 ag shot in a registered match........ just no recognition by the national sanctioning body.
 
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R.G. Robinett said:
. . . This points out the need to 'fix' an antiquated scoring system, long out performed by our equipment . . .
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What we need to fix is an antiquated distance system. I've advocated the elimination of 100 yard shooting altogether. It hasn't won me any friends and may have cost me a few. 100 yards is an insult to the point blank cartridges and rifles that we shoot today. When I have suggested this, most shooters will tell me, "Oh no. I really like shooting those tiny dots." So I suggest that we shoot at 50 yards. That's when they un-invite me to lunch.

JMHO

Ray
 
FBecigneul said:
Why would anyone post on a thread started by an instigator where the question is essentially a poll?
Who cares? This thing I know, based on history, Ted will not be the winner.
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Man
That really hurt, it is still stinging 2 days later.
Ted
 
What ever the circustances are, from both sides, all I can say is this truly is a SAD DAY for group shooting and records.........................

Wow multiple people measuring after the record committee and such discrepincies..........................................................................

I wonder what would happen if a Canadian range joined the NBRSA, had a possible record shot and it was submitted???????????????????

SAD day indeed.

Calvin
 
Actually

goodgrouper said:
My friend from NM shot a 30-30 and beat us all in Colorado last October. When his gun is on, it is on. But, he doesn't shoot it free recoil. Well, I remember he tried to at Albuquerque in late October (two weeks after the stomping he gave us in CO) after he couldn't get it to shoot because he thought maybe he was flinching. I'd have to ask him but I don't think it worked out too well. It just bucks too hard. But the 30 br has significantly less recoil than the 30-30 but enough recoil that most folks still "hang on to it" don't they?

If I'm forced to hang on to it, I find myself not watching the flags as much as my crosshair and my groups suffer significantly. So, if the 30 br can't be shot accurately with a free recoil method in a LV gun, it won't work for me. And I only have the brain power to use and keep one gun going all weekend so using a 30br for the HV stage and a 6ppc for the LV isn't in the cards I'm afraid.
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I do shoot the 30-30 free recoil. The deal is I shoot the heavy 30-30 free recoil with no problem at all, but the light 30-30 is right on the edge. Sometimes it seems to shoot very well free recoil if I run around 3000 fps. The problem comes in when I push it up around 3200 fps or faster. At that point the heavy gun still works fine, but the light gun can become a 4 and 1 grouper.

The problem in Albuquerque was a borderlined stock issue. When I would squeeze the heavy stock to tight with the front rest, it caused a bullet of vertical that would not tune out. I have that gun out of the stock right now. I have removed the fast upward taper from the bottom of the forend so it will ride the front bag better.

Now the question is Colorado next October. Will I be there? Could it be possible to win the 2 gun three years in a row? My answers: I may be there, but I don't expect a three year win. You know I'll try my best.

Michael
 
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