30BR, 4198, 112's and Other Stuff

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
Since I didn't get to make the trip to Denton, I decided to spend today working with my new 30BR effort.

This is the one that I had Dave Kiff to grind me a reamer that utilizes the full length BR Case. As many know, since we blow our caes out rather than neck them up with a mandrel, they retain much of the originol length.

I just had Dave Kiff grind me a reamer that is a direct copy of the Robinett zero freebore, but with a trim to length of 1.550.

Since I have a few BIB 112's, I decided to try these with the 4198 that is part of a 24 pound lot I bought from Bruno last month. Barrel is a 23 inch 1-17 Krieger.

I set my 35P up to find out where I was velocity wise. I figured 3000 as a realistic baseline, hit that with 33.2 grns. I then took it up to an average 3040 with 33.7 grns. A few 3-shot groups looked really great. I then laid down a couple of nice round solid "ones". This looks like a great combo. Primers show no pressure signs, and the bolt openning is effortless.

My big question is, with the 112 BIB I would have thought that particular load would have yielded over 3200. Not that I see a need to go there, the accuracy is really good at the mid 3000's.

The lot number on my jug of powder is 80520084550, (orange sticker).

I do not have that much experience with a 30BR, my efforts have been geared more to the 30PPC.

I know I should probably be shooting 116+ bullets, but I don't have any right now. I also have about 500 Knight 112's, and about 600 Cheeks 112's........jackie
 
Jackie, I relize I

jackie schmidt said:
Since I didn't get to make the trip to Denton, I decided to spend today working with my new 30BR effort.

This is the one that I had Dave Kiff to grind me a reamer that utilizes the full length BR Case. As many know, since we blow our caes out rather than neck them up with a mandrel, they retain much of the originol length.

I just had Dave Kiff grind me a reamer that is a direct copy of the Robinett zero freebore, but with a trim to length of 1.550.

Since I have a few BIB 112's, I decided to try these with the 4198 that is part of a 24 pound lot I bought from Bruno last month. Barrel is a 23 inch 1-17 Krieger.

I set my 35P up to find out where I was velocity wise. I figured 3000 as a realistic baseline, hit that with 33.2 grns. I then took it up to an average 3040 with 33.7 grns. A few 3-shot groups looked really great. I then laid down a couple of nice round solid "ones". This looks like a great combo. Primers show no pressure signs, and the bolt openning is effortless.

My big question is, with the 112 BIB I would have thought that particular load would have yielded over 3200. Not that I see a need to go there, the accuracy is really good at the mid 3000's.

The lot number on my jug of powder is 80520084550, (orange sticker).

I do not have that much experience with a 30BR, my efforts have been geared more to the 30PPC.

I know I should probably be shooting 116+ bullets, but I don't have any right now. I also have about 500 Knight 112's, and about 600 Cheeks 112's........jackie
Click to expand...

am just a "who is he", but in my stats study of the 30 paradigm I have come to the conclusion that there may be a "magic spot for the 30 calber that is in the 2975-3025 range that is "universal" I don't care if it is 112's or 125's. There just seems to be a sweet spot there. JBM bears that out as well. Specially if you are playing w/ 16-18 twist barrels
 
Jackie, I shot at 3050 all last year with 115gr TenX bullets. It took 35.2gr's of a newish lot of 4198 (wide mouth jug) to get there. Getting to 3200 is do-able, but not with my current lot of 4198.
 
Jackie, with various Lots of H-4198, barrels of differing manufacture/lengths, and a variety of bullet makes/weights, you're in the "normal" range for your charge weight. The Lot which I had, produced 3040--3050 with 112 and 118 Gr. bullets, in combination with 125 Gr. bullets, a nifty 3100+ was possible, all without excessive pressures. Up until he went and got all gooey, fooling with "mud-trucks", Dave Grene shot the 125s almost exclusively - whith a case FULL of H-4198, at about 3150 FPS!:eek: And he did a fair share of winning.

With the 30 BR case capacity and expansion ratio, H-4198 is relatively "slow" when used with the 110-112 Gr. bullets: you'll get the same velocity with the 118s, but, with these bullet weights, most barrels, will not develope excessive pressure. I don't know the technical term/explanation, but, while the lighter bullets shoot great, they just don't get the the pressure to build up quite as fast - so, it peaks lower . . . I think. :eek:

Counter-intuitively, with most of the suitable powders, when a load (charge weight) developed using, say a 125 Gr. bullet, for Hunter Class capacity case, is combined with a lighter weight bullet, the velocity DROPS - sometimes substantially - like 80-90 FPS!:eek: Not the end of the world, but when the load is already compressed, there's only one way to go - more compression! :eek::D This is where most 30BR chambered barrels like to live - the case FULL of nicely compressed H-4198 . . . or, sometimes, N-130; R-7; H-322, etc. And, with the smaller BR case, and faster burn rate powders, compared to the Hunter numbers, 30 BR velocites don't drop off as much.

The 30 BR "nodes" - and as David H. pointed out, even for the Hunter cases - seem to be around 2975,+/- a little ( I receiev a LOT of 2970 - 2990 reports), then, again at 3050, +/- ten or so FPS . . . then, if one dares to go there, with other powders, there are a couple of HOT nodes above 3100. :eek::D RG
 
My testing shows that in the BR case, jacket length (.925's vs. the 1.00") seems to be a bigger factor in velocity than weight.

When I use 1.00" jackets and make 112's and 117's the tuneup and velocity are identical with H4198. But make those same 112 and 117 bullet weights on the .925 length jackets and things are 'way different. I agree with Randy on this point...H4198 seems a bit 'slow' with the .925 112-ish bullets.

This isn't a bad deal, as the shorter jacket gives a pretty wide safety net for pressure while giving great accuracy at known-good 30 cal. velocity/accuracy levels.

And the 1.00" jackets give you a chance to operate at higher pressures with virtually identical velocities....provided you can get enough powder in the case. Both of my 30BR's are set up with around .030 of freebore and I use the 1.00' jackets with a base-to-ogive measurement of between .365 and .375 depending on jacket lot. The small amount of freebore and the relatively short b-o dimension (while still on a 1.00" jacket) gets the bullet base 'up' the case neck just enough to let me get where I want to be, pressure wise. I'll stop short of quoting charge weights or velocity figures.....:eek:

Two great approaches to life in 30BR-ville.

It wouldn't be hard to extrapolate this to some the 30PPC traits...and why : "....they don't act like a 30BR!". ;)
 
30 br

Jackie,
After I read the posts it dawned on me that you were shooting the (too small) PPC case and NOT the BR case. In the case of the 30BR 34.7 grains has yeilded 2960 fps over my Oehler with 115-118 grain bullets using H-4198. N-130 will get that but using 35.6 grains. Tubal 2000 will get you on that speed using...... oh never mind. Try the Grendel case as it allows more horsepower than the PPC case, which seems to run out of juice at the longer ranges, over 100 yards.
David
 
David

No, this is a 30BR, with an overall trim to length of 1.550.

In my 30PPC, we shoot 4227, and N120.

I was able to do this project based on one of my Farley Actioned Rifles because I just happen to have a bolt for it from way back when I shot a 25BR..........jackie
 
Jackie,

Julia and I are running 34.2 grains of H4198 behind a 115 grain 10X bullet in our new Borden Rifles. Both rifles have tuners so we load them exactly the same.

We run as much as 35 grains in other rifles with the same bullet. I don't have the chrono numbers with me so I can't supply speed.

Adrian
 
Jackie,

You helped me out with my seater die - so maybe I can return the favor. I shoot BIB 116 7 ogive. If you would like to try some for your testing, let me know and I can send you some.

Stanley
 
Jackie, I think I read somewhere in a previous post, that you were building a new SP/LV rifle..What components did you choose? action, stock etc...
Just curious if you were staying with the Farley actions on all your BR rifles?


Eddie in Texas
 
Jackie- a lot depends on barrel. Part of last year I was shooting 35.6 grains of H4198 using 118 Eubers at 3170 f/s in a RockCreek barrel. With a new RockCreek later in the season-same chamber specs, same powder, and same bullets- I couldn't get over 34.7 without hard bolt lift. This barrel likes 33.0 grains with 118-7 BIBS and the velocity turned out to be--2970 f/s. With your larger case, you may find that Benchmark, N530, and N133 may also work for you. I have not found them to be as consistent as 4198 over the long haul. Randy J.
 
This looks about right

I really can't see another powder shooting as good as this lot of 4198. The case is fairly full, about 3/16 down in the neck, and the velocity is about right from what I can gather from the info garnered here. Accuracy is at a sub .200 level.

As for the building of a LV, (Sporter), that was the whole idea behind my 30PPC. I did that project with the expectation that the IBS would institute LV as a bona-fide class. But, that did not happen, the organization will continue with the previous Format.

Also, there are multitudes of shooters who own 6PPC bolt face Rifles who have the option of switching to a 30 by simply screwing on a barrel.

So, that brings us to this version of the 30BR. As I said before, the little bit of extra length is simply a product of how we make our cases. They retain much of the originol length, so why trim it all off.

As for barrels, I am going to stick with the Kriegers. So far, we have put together four 30's with 1-17 Kriegers, and as best I can tell, all of the barrels are identicle in the groove and lands. All seem to shoot quite well, and tune in a similiar window. As an example, Ed and I both have identicle 30PPC's, and they shoot the identicle same load.

This is new territory for me. But, I am taking "the crash course" on the 30BR. There is plenty of good ideas and knowledge to be garnered right here........jackie
 
The 30 BR "nodes" - and as David H. pointed out, even for the Hunter cases - seem to be around 2975,+/- a little ( I receiev a LOT of 2970 - 2990 reports), then, again at 3050, +/- ten or so FPS . . . then, if one dares to go there, with other powders, there are a couple of HOT nodes above 3100. RG
Click to expand...

This is quite interesting. I've always felt that "nodes" were properties of barrels, and so, different barrel configurations would give different nodes. Of course, except for length & a slight difference between the Hunter taper, LV taper, and HV taper, most benchrest barrels are pretty similar.

An interesting question would be, what happens between these nodes. Do groups just open up generally? Or do they open up with vertical stringing?

The reason I find this interesting goes back to the models varmint Al gave us. If you remember, tuners of "reasonable" or "practical" weight on a conventionally-profiled barrel could change things in small, but significant ways. If the less-than-ideal velocities poorer groups are mainly vertical stringing, I can think of experiments worth doing. If is just a general opening of groups, I'm at a loss -- Don't believe in magic, but no idea where to look.

Edit: BTW, I remember the "early" days of the .30 BR, when Randy was recommending a "node" of between 2,925 & 2,950. I notice that one's missing now. We tended to use 4227 in those days, but I think Randy was playing with 4198 & I was for sure using N-130 of that time.
 
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Don't knock 322 it has worked very well in 2 30BRs for me. I haven't tried it in the 3rd yet. About a case full works for me.
 
I have always believed

that the fastest accurate node was the best one to buck conditions but I am beginning to have second thoughts. My 30-284-1.650" has been my best shooting rifle for a couple of years and it has been running 2960 fps using 4197-S. It shoots nearly as well using H-4198 but @ around 3080 with the same weight load and interestingly enough, the most accurate when working up a load to replace the 4197-s.

I have taken note that some folks are shooting a moderate load of H-4198 with good results and regardless of how fast we make them go, none of them are going to be totally condition resistant. If one can maintain a tight round group, is it not better than a fast Mickey Mouse Ears group? Yes, we will need to be more careful of what the flags tell us but isn't it better to know one's bullet will hit the dot if we steer the rifle correctly?

Pete
 
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Charles E said:
This is quite interesting. I've always felt that "nodes" were properties of barrels, and so, different barrel configurations would give different nodes. Of course, except for length & a slight difference between the Hunter taper, LV taper, and HV taper, most benchrest barrels are pretty similar.

An interesting question would be, what happens between these nodes. Do groups just open up generally? Or do they open up with vertical stringing?

The reason I find this interesting goes back to the models varmint Al gave us. If you remember, tuners of "reasonable" or "practical" weight on a conventionally-profiled barrel could change things in small, but significant ways. If the less-than-ideal velocities poorer groups are mainly vertical stringing, I can think of experiments worth doing. If is just a general opening of groups, I'm at a loss -- Don't believe in magic, but no idea where to look.

Edit: BTW, I remember the "early" days of the .30 BR, when Randy was recommending a "node" of between 2,925 & 2,950. I notice that one's missing now. We tended to use 4227 in those days, but I think Randy was playing with 4198 & I was for sure using N-130 of that time.
Click to expand...

Charles, most of the barrels (30BR), which I am 'exposed' to are, NBRSA/IBS HV countours, between 21.5 and 24" long, or NBRSA Hunter contour barrels (30x44, 47, etc,) of 21.5-22.5" in length. I refer 'loosely' to the 'nodes' (ok, probably mis-used it) because this (velocity windows - see above) is where most people obtain the best Agging from the most barrels, regardles of the two mentioned contours and/or lengths . . . this cuts across rifling profiles/ groove configurations/chamberings/etc. For these contours, I believe the amplitude/deflection characteristics are very similar - if not, how could the velocity windows be explained? :eek::eek: I don't think it's magic - just fortuitous happenstance involving the variable/compromise set!:eek:

The 2925-2950 window didn't go away, it's just that very few are happy there, when, with at least equal Agging potential, more velocity can usually be had. As noted, by others, early on, I occasionally used a case FULL of H-322, which is more dense than H-4198 (for my comparative Lots, with equal volumes, the 322 is right at 2.5 Gr. heavier), but is slow enough, that with 112 or 118 Gr. bullets, delivers 125 FPS less velocity. While this isn't a wreck, even I will take 125 FPS when it's almost free!:eek::D RG
 
I'm getting

ready to put one together. I have a rock barrel and quite a bit of Tubal 2000 lying around. What kind of load will be good for the 115-120 bullets? What velocities?
 
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