.222 Cases Getting Thick

One cause of the .222 problem could be that the brass has been work hardened so that it springs back more after firing.

After just four firings?

Gerry-As for seating the bullet, I use a Hornady Case Gauge and bullet comparator set up. Once I get the measurement to the ogive of a given bullet, I seat that bullet .015" deeper so I'm that far off the lands. The bore I clean the conventional way with Hoppe's followed by a brush and clean patches. Every other time I'll also run patches through the bore with Wipeout...suppose to be the best for getting out copper fouling.


The bullets are Sierra and Berger and of course, they check out perfectly as to diameter.
 
Following their instructions has caused the problem. I know that that someone's advice who says to ignore the factory instructions seems suspect, but perhaps if other posters will reinforce this, you may come to believe that we are right about this, and perhaps come to understand why.

Boyd is correct. You are setting the sizing die way wrong. The best use of those RCBS instructions is as a fire lighter.
 
I guess me and 10,000 others. I have since backed off with that die, smoked the neck/shoulder area of another case and set the die down so that there's just a smidgen of carbon bumped off the neck. From what I understand(with this FL die) that's about as good as you can get it. However, I think I mentioned I have ordered some Lee Collet dies and Hornady Head Space gauges.
 
ColColt,
How do you set up your FL dies? Do you have an attachment for your dial calipers that will allow you to compare the shoulder to head dimension of a fired case (primer removed or reseated below the head) and one that you are using to set your die? Hornady sells one that is incorrectly called a headspace gauge. It is really a comparator for setting FL or bump dies.
Boyd

Bingo. Lacking this, you're simply wizzin' in the wind. -Al
 
There is another way that this can happen. If the loads are relatively light, you are bumping your shoulders way too far back (as setting your die an eighth turn more than touching generally will), and your case length is near to max. You can end up with a situation where even though your case is technically within spec for overall length, because the body is short, the neck sticks out too far from the shoulder so that it is forced into the angle at the end of the neck part of the chamber (usually a 45 degree transition to the back of the freebore) by the force of the striker and the primer going off. This can crimp the end of the neck into the bullet, and it can stay that way after the round is fired, slightly curled. Do the primers of your fired cases protrude slightly above the head of the case?
 
There is another way that this can happen. If you are bumping your shoulders way too far back (as setting your die an eighth turn more than touching generally will), and your case length is near to max. You can end up with a situation where even though your case is technically within spec for overall length, because the body is short, the neck sticks out too far from the shoulder so that it is forced into the angle at the end of the neck part of the chamber (usually a 45 degree transition to the back of the freebore) by the force of the striker and the primer going off. This can crimp the end of the neck into the bullet, and it can stay that way after the round is fired, slightly curled. If you trim .050 off of the end of one of those cases, and chamfer the ID of the mouth, will a bullet slip in the case?
 
222cases getting thick

so far he has tried only two of the items I have mentioned there are two others try just neck sizing with the die backed off.
change the expander button to open the case a tad. . 222 cases don't stretch that much all he really needs to do is neck size his brass, that,
should cure his problem. After those cases are fireformed there is zero headspace . Still take it to a smith .
Ive seen something like this before, It was the wrong bolt for the rifle, Someone change the bolt putting more headspace on the rifle.
 
I don't think the loads are light. the last two loads I tried with two different powders are within a grain or so from max, depending on which manual you follow.

Do the primers of your fired cases protrude slightly above the head of the case?

No-In checking the fired cases the I.D. of the necks are .220"...FL or just neck sized brings them down to .215". No wonder bullets won't fit a fired case. Up until this last time I had been neck sizing the cases. I did load ten FL to see if groups would improve...they didn't. Apparently, this is the reason I haven't been getting decent groups with either the .222 or .270. Even with the 270 bedded it still can't be depended on to do better than an occasional 1" group. Most are larger.

The bolt on the .222 is the correct one for the rifle. Etched on the bolt is 2243 which is the last four digits of the serial number on the barrel.
 
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222cases getting thick

glad to hear the bolts correct.
That's ne other thing out of the way.
220 inside diameter with a fired case means thick necks or small neck in the rifle. you have to get those cases to open up to 225 to at least 224 after being fired.
I hope you have a decent caliper to measure with. after they are fired the bullet should almost drop into a fired case.
ream or turn a few cases, Most of us here usually turn the cases. let us know how that works out.
 
The OD of the factory Lapua Match cases are .249" and inside measure .212". I suppose they make some effort to size the cases. In order for a bullet to enter a fired case, as you mentioned, the I.D would have to be .225 and I'm far from that.. After cleaning the cases in the Thumler's Tumbler there is zero signs of carbon outside or inside the necks. I annealed them and they're ready for the Lee dies when they get here. I have a 6" Frankfurt Arsenal caliper and a Lyman digital but I don't trust it much.

While it's on my mind, how much neck tension should I be shooting for....001,.002 or more?
 
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Speaking of neck reaming, according to Forester, their inside neck reamers for the .222 are not very beneficial at .220". No .224" bullet would go into a case reamed to that diameter.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=26888&catid=19938

Seems I misread that. The .220" is for those that want to ream after sizing. The make a reamer for trimming before sizing at .002-.003" over bullet diameter. I ordered that one.
 
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Do you have a 1" mic. that measures to .0001? I find that by measuring bullet diameter (over the pressure ring at the base of the bullet if it has one) seating it, and measuring the loaded round neck diameter, over the largest part of the bullet, is the best way to get the final word on necks. I also have a neck mic, that measures to .0001 that I use quite a bit as well. IMO this is not work for calipers. Also, they are not suitable for accurate measurement of IDs.
 
No, my mike only measures in thousandths. You'd had to interpolate between numbers and more or less guess. I totally agree calipers are not the best instruments for measuring I.D.'s of cases but, it's all I have to give an idea as to their measurements. The standard calipers I have are more consistently accurate than the Lyman digital calipers are and as I mentioned, I don't trust that caliper. It's probably only accurate +- .001" at best.
 
I got the Lee collet dies today. Now to figure out how to use them. I ordered a set of the Hornady Head Space gauges and they got here today as well.

I measured a new case with the gauges and they miked 3.287". A fired case checked out at 3.288 yet another one 3.287". A full length sized case was 3.285"
 
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I'm still trying to get the collet out. Everything else drops out but it's stuck. I was trying to get it out to lube the taper on the collet but it's tight.
 
This article was written a few years ago by someone named John Valentine.


"Using The Lee Collet Die."
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a limited zone. No lubricant is required on the case necks during sizing .
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
This is not a problem once you learn how to use them.
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.

I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002."
*****
 
That works good. A little contrary to Lee's instructions but better. I had just bought two collet dies and tried the one out on my .270 first. I got to the point that the ram handle would meet a little resistance, "snap" or cam down as I call it(his definition is over center) and then tried seating a bullet. I measured before working it though the action and it wasn't shoved back into the case and seating the bullet felt about normal. I think I've found the "sweet spot" for the .270. Now, onward to the .222.
 
Just remember that with the collet die, if you need more neck tension, it is not a matter of setting the die for a harder cam over, but in getting a smaller mandrel that the neck is pressed against. The lightest cam over feel is enough to give you what a particular mandrel will yield in neck tension.
 
I think I have these adjusted properly. I screwed the die down until the mandrel touched the top of the shell holder and gave it another half turn, then a full turn. It wasn't quite enough as the bullet base would still fit the case mouth so just a bit more and you could no longer get the bullet started. There was a light cam down of about half an inch(guessing by feel).

I did decide to order the Redding FL S die with two bushings just to see how well they may work.
 
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