K
kansasvet
Guest
I also use an RCBS lube pad but have found I have to press incredibly hard or use my thumb and index finger to properly
move lube on to the neck.
move lube on to the neck.
OP wrote: "BTW-I ran a new, out of the box Lapua case into the size die and get the same vertical marks."
From this statement, if true, then something is wrong with the sizing die.
Even more odd is the vertical marks seem to be on the inside of the case neck as well.
All the measuring, lubing, etc is not going to fix it.
BTW it is possible for the best die maker to have one slip by.
Please start over with a new die and clean the new die before using it.
Love those Lee Collet Dies;-)=
From this statement, if true, then something is wrong with the sizing die.
Even more odd is the vertical marks seem to be on the inside of the case neck as well.
All the measuring, lubing, etc is not going to fix it.
BTW it is possible for the best die maker to have one slip by.
Please start over with a new die and clean the new die before using it.
Love those Lee Collet Dies;-)=
C
ColColt
Guest
I've had .270 cases to get dented on the shoulder by getting lube on it so, I'm careful not to do that. If I've just applied fresh lube to the pad, it doesn't "sink" in well and if I roll a bit too hard the lube gets on the shoulder and will collapse it. I don't put lube on the neck as it never touches the pad.
I'm heading out to the range to find out how these new loads will group and taking my calipers with me to measure the before and after firing. Update later.
I have looked into those Lee Collet dies. I don't know if they would be better than the Redding dies or not.
I'm heading out to the range to find out how these new loads will group and taking my calipers with me to measure the before and after firing. Update later.
I have looked into those Lee Collet dies. I don't know if they would be better than the Redding dies or not.
I'm getting hesitant to offer suggestions here as the rednecks are beginning to squabble and spout irrelevancies, but......... would you be willing to try die wax? Redding or Imperial die wax? I think you'll be better served by first CLEANING EVERYTHING, then pitching that sloppy pad into the corner and lubing with your fingers ONLY the neck itself and the lower half of the case. keep lube away from the shoulder area.
You HAVE a problem..... those pictures are gross, I wouldn't inflict that brass on my mother-in-law.......and you MUST find the bind by making some measurements, gaging your fitment, else I'm leaving you to the guessers.....
al
You HAVE a problem..... those pictures are gross, I wouldn't inflict that brass on my mother-in-law.......and you MUST find the bind by making some measurements, gaging your fitment, else I'm leaving you to the guessers.....
al
Those scratches on the neck...
Don't mean a thing unless they're large enough to get in the way. Originally, you stated that your bullets wouldn't go into the case necks using the seating die. That doesn't indicate the scratches on the neck but rather something terribly wrong. If your cases will load and fire...and have adequate clearance then fix the die to get rid of the scratches and all is well. I'm thinking you've got a clearance problem with the neck and that's a bad thing to have.
If I don't understand the real problem please tell me and I'll hush. If I do understand the problem, measure everything, the best way you can, and get back to us with the measurements. At a minimum, we'll need the loaded case neck measurement and the chamber neck measurement. Any engraving on the barrel that indicates the neck clearance would be good. Indication of the bolt closing effort would be beneficial as well.
As a side note, I placed 6th overall at the NBRSA nationals with terribly scratched necks...somewhere about 2000. Might have won if I had better necks but that doesn't seem a problem - again, unless they're TERRIBLY goofed up.
We need the measurements to help.
Don't mean a thing unless they're large enough to get in the way. Originally, you stated that your bullets wouldn't go into the case necks using the seating die. That doesn't indicate the scratches on the neck but rather something terribly wrong. If your cases will load and fire...and have adequate clearance then fix the die to get rid of the scratches and all is well. I'm thinking you've got a clearance problem with the neck and that's a bad thing to have.
If I don't understand the real problem please tell me and I'll hush. If I do understand the problem, measure everything, the best way you can, and get back to us with the measurements. At a minimum, we'll need the loaded case neck measurement and the chamber neck measurement. Any engraving on the barrel that indicates the neck clearance would be good. Indication of the bolt closing effort would be beneficial as well.
As a side note, I placed 6th overall at the NBRSA nationals with terribly scratched necks...somewhere about 2000. Might have won if I had better necks but that doesn't seem a problem - again, unless they're TERRIBLY goofed up.
We need the measurements to help.
C
ColColt
Guest
I just got back from the range. The groups were awful for a .222 with the smallest one measure 1.25". the loaded case I miked was .248" before and after firing was .254 using 22 gr of H322 and a Berger 52 gr bullet. With 23 gr of H4895 and the 55 gr Berger measurements loaded were .250 and after firing was .254". Hope this helps.
C
ColColt
Guest
Ironic we talked briefly about incipient case head separation the other day. today, I took the .222 out as well as my pre-64 Model 70 .270 Winchester. These twenty cases had been reloaded five times and I noticed one nearly separated and several others are beginning to get thin as seen in the second picture. Seems I have a host of rifle problems here lately.
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ColColt
Guest
It's going tomorrow. I don't think this family of calibers should be this susceptible to head separation this early in the reloads.
Where's everyone that wanted the information about the .222 I supplied?
Where's everyone that wanted the information about the .222 I supplied?
Well...hold on a minute if you will....
Measure the (new case) fired case length. Then size the same case (neck sizer) and see what the length is now. If the case is shorter, reply with how much shorter. If it's not shorter, and that's what you've been doing all along, then take it to a gunsmith for a determination of the "problem".
You can continue to size cases this way until you determine the problem.
Try to measure the length from base to shoulder rather than the overall length but the overall length should tell what the problem is. Stay away from the full length sizer until you find the problem.
Are you certain of the chamber size? Is this really a .222 ?
And finally, if you break cases with less than maximum loading and you can't see an increase in sizing dimension, then take it to a gunsmith without further delay. I think the problem is that you're simply oversizing but things have happened along the way to delay that opinion by a large amount.
Measure the (new case) fired case length. Then size the same case (neck sizer) and see what the length is now. If the case is shorter, reply with how much shorter. If it's not shorter, and that's what you've been doing all along, then take it to a gunsmith for a determination of the "problem".
You can continue to size cases this way until you determine the problem.
Try to measure the length from base to shoulder rather than the overall length but the overall length should tell what the problem is. Stay away from the full length sizer until you find the problem.
Are you certain of the chamber size? Is this really a .222 ?
And finally, if you break cases with less than maximum loading and you can't see an increase in sizing dimension, then take it to a gunsmith without further delay. I think the problem is that you're simply oversizing but things have happened along the way to delay that opinion by a large amount.
+1
Boyd Allen
Active member
ColColt,
How do you set up your FL dies? Do you have an attachment for your dial calipers that will allow you to compare the shoulder to head dimension of a fired case (primer removed or reseated below the head) and one that you are using to set your die? Hornady sells one that is incorrectly called a headspace gauge. It is really a comparator for setting FL or bump dies. Pardon me if this has already been mentioned in this thread. I have not read the whole thing, just the last few.
Boyd
How do you set up your FL dies? Do you have an attachment for your dial calipers that will allow you to compare the shoulder to head dimension of a fired case (primer removed or reseated below the head) and one that you are using to set your die? Hornady sells one that is incorrectly called a headspace gauge. It is really a comparator for setting FL or bump dies. Pardon me if this has already been mentioned in this thread. I have not read the whole thing, just the last few.
Boyd
243winxb
Member
222 Rem
The after firing neck diameter of .254" would seem ok, if you add .001" of brass springback. I question the loaded round neck diameter differences, .248" VS .250" ?? Difference in pressure ring diameters will not be .002" If 1 lot of brass was fired more than the other (new vs fired 4 times) neck wall thickness may thin from working of the brass in standard dies when using an expander. Or you measurement are not correct? Sorry. Will the bullets now drop into a fired case? This was your original problem.
243winxb
Member
270 Win. Case Head Separation-
For your safety, have a Gunsmith check both rifles. This fix requires a simple adjustment of your FL Sizing die using this tool correctly. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=...g_Success___Minimum_Headspace_and_Maximum_COL
Ironic we talked briefly about incipient case head separation the other day. today, I took the .222 out as well as my pre-64 Model 70 .270 Winchester. These twenty cases had been reloaded five times and I noticed one nearly separated and several others are beginning to get thin as seen in the second picture. Seems I have a host of rifle problems here lately.
For your safety, have a Gunsmith check both rifles. This fix requires a simple adjustment of your FL Sizing die using this tool correctly. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=...g_Success___Minimum_Headspace_and_Maximum_COL
C
ColColt
Guest
I've been at the dentist about all day and didn't get to go see the gunsmith. It started snowing right before I left the dentist so I got chicken and came home. I'll see him tomorrow if it doesn't get any worse.
Wilbur-Fired case length was 2.535". After sizing, 2.543". That's with the FL die as I don't have a neck sizer for the .270. I'm not going to use the FL die again. I'm going to chunk those last fired cases as they all have problems now with shinny rings and that one was nearly separated. I assume we're talking about the .270 here.
If not...
Fired case length for the .222 is 1.684". After neck sizing 1.687" The O.D. of fired case is .255", neck sized is .248". The inside diameter of the neck. sized case is .218"-.220". I suppose that's the reason a bullet won't enter a fired case.
The Remington 700 is indeed a .222 caliber. I made the mistake of talking about two different rifles here and should have posted about the .270 elsewhere. I'm getting myself confused!
Boyd-I set my dies for all calibers per RCBS instructions which sates to screw the die down till it contacts the shell holder and then another 1/8th turn. That's how the .222 and .270 dies are currently set.
243winxb-All the cases I'm using for the .222 have been fired the same amount of times...about 4-5. All were sized the same and trimmed back to 1.690" after sizing. A random check of five fired cases yielded a difference of 1.693-1.697"...depending on the load I used. Bullets will still not enter a fired case.
I used a Hornady case length gauge and bullet comparator to set up my COAL in both rifles. Whatever measurements were given when the rifling touched the bullet's ogive, I seated another .015" off the lands to give me the proper seating depth.
Wilbur-Fired case length was 2.535". After sizing, 2.543". That's with the FL die as I don't have a neck sizer for the .270. I'm not going to use the FL die again. I'm going to chunk those last fired cases as they all have problems now with shinny rings and that one was nearly separated. I assume we're talking about the .270 here.
If not...
Fired case length for the .222 is 1.684". After neck sizing 1.687" The O.D. of fired case is .255", neck sized is .248". The inside diameter of the neck. sized case is .218"-.220". I suppose that's the reason a bullet won't enter a fired case.
The Remington 700 is indeed a .222 caliber. I made the mistake of talking about two different rifles here and should have posted about the .270 elsewhere. I'm getting myself confused!
Boyd-I set my dies for all calibers per RCBS instructions which sates to screw the die down till it contacts the shell holder and then another 1/8th turn. That's how the .222 and .270 dies are currently set.
243winxb-All the cases I'm using for the .222 have been fired the same amount of times...about 4-5. All were sized the same and trimmed back to 1.690" after sizing. A random check of five fired cases yielded a difference of 1.693-1.697"...depending on the load I used. Bullets will still not enter a fired case.
I used a Hornady case length gauge and bullet comparator to set up my COAL in both rifles. Whatever measurements were given when the rifling touched the bullet's ogive, I seated another .015" off the lands to give me the proper seating depth.
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Following their instructions has caused the problem. I know that that someone's advice who says to ignore the factory instructions seems suspect, but perhaps if other posters will reinforce this, you may come to believe that we are right about this, and perhaps come to understand why.
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ColColt
Guest
It still perplexes me why a bullet won't go back into the fired .222 case. Even with the current problem with the .270, a bullet will easily slip into the neck of those cases. There is no indication of an impending "incipient case head separation" in the .222 cases like those for the 270. You can't feel any dip in the case with a paper clip at the web area like with the 270 cases so, maybe those will be ok if I don't continue as I have with them.
I found some older 270 cases from 1970's era that had been fired four times. None exhibit the tell tale bright ring above the extractor groove nor does the paper clip catch inside the case. I must have readjusted these dies since back then there were no problems back when I had the other 270. Measuring that shiny area on the suspect cases indicated it was .005" larger in diameter than those older cases from the 70's.
I found some older 270 cases from 1970's era that had been fired four times. None exhibit the tell tale bright ring above the extractor groove nor does the paper clip catch inside the case. I must have readjusted these dies since back then there were no problems back when I had the other 270. Measuring that shiny area on the suspect cases indicated it was .005" larger in diameter than those older cases from the 70's.
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Boyd Allen
Active member
One cause of the .222 problem could be that the brass has been work hardened so that it springs back more after firing.
222cases getting thick
O k lets see where yoy are.
So far you have measured the reloaded rounds and they are .248 The fired case is .254 , that leaves .006 total expansion plus about .001 for spring back.
plenty of expansion so that not your cause of the pressure problem. After sizing your cases are a tad too tight,{ probably a undersized expander button.
That should be opening your case necks on the down stroke . A new one should repair that problem.
2 your still having pressure problems so check these thing out . back off the die and size only 1/2 of the neck that will leave the case shoulders alone,
similar to a neck sizing die. . if you still have pressure problems then it's either the loads being too hot IE [bad scale} 2 Maybe seating set too far out of the case]
undersized barrel bore], badly fouled bore] wrong diameter bullets] . it has to be some where in that area .
check your bullets first'' for diameter then seating depth. last have a smith check the bore size. and the barrel for build up. {extremely dirty and fouled}
O k lets see where yoy are.
So far you have measured the reloaded rounds and they are .248 The fired case is .254 , that leaves .006 total expansion plus about .001 for spring back.
plenty of expansion so that not your cause of the pressure problem. After sizing your cases are a tad too tight,{ probably a undersized expander button.
That should be opening your case necks on the down stroke . A new one should repair that problem.
2 your still having pressure problems so check these thing out . back off the die and size only 1/2 of the neck that will leave the case shoulders alone,
similar to a neck sizing die. . if you still have pressure problems then it's either the loads being too hot IE [bad scale} 2 Maybe seating set too far out of the case]
undersized barrel bore], badly fouled bore] wrong diameter bullets] . it has to be some where in that area .
check your bullets first'' for diameter then seating depth. last have a smith check the bore size. and the barrel for build up. {extremely dirty and fouled}