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Ackman
Guest
Some of you guys have turned this into a stupid argument.
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Ackman
Guest
Especially stuff like this.
I get more brass life out of my 220 swift then my 22-250, but this is just maybe a case of better matched dies/chambers.
The swift brass is nice and heavy, it does grow, but all brass grows.
Both of my rifles will shoot hole touching hole.
I had an ackley, but rebarreled it, because I was tired of fire forming, and it is my opinion that the 22-250 brass is nearly minimum thickness to start with.
So, my vote goes to the swift, over the ackley
Now 22-250 vs the swift.. I have to call it a tie.
By the way, an old gunsmith told me to load the swift at 22-250 speeds (3800 w/50's) and you get better barrel life than the 22-250.
The swift brass is nice and heavy, it does grow, but all brass grows.
Both of my rifles will shoot hole touching hole.
I had an ackley, but rebarreled it, because I was tired of fire forming, and it is my opinion that the 22-250 brass is nearly minimum thickness to start with.
So, my vote goes to the swift, over the ackley
Now 22-250 vs the swift.. I have to call it a tie.
By the way, an old gunsmith told me to load the swift at 22-250 speeds (3800 w/50's) and you get better barrel life than the 22-250.
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tylerw02
Guest
I'll pick the .204 Ruger with 39 gr SBKs. Cheaper, great ballistics, easier on the shoulder, easier to do your own spotting. Need to shoot farther than 500 yards? Pick up a flat-shooting 6mm of some kind.
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AVanGorder
Guest
DR4NRA
New member
stupid
Ackman, Evidently you did not read the original question. How does the 22.250 AI COMPARE in VELOCITY to the SWIFT. I will stand by my statement that if you have to compare it to a 70 year old caliber, then that must still be the benchmark. If that is stupid so be it. I have read some of your posts regarding other things on here, and personally I thought you folks got into some very stupid arguments over such things as best brass. So be it. Its your opinion, and your right to do so. But dont dis others for what they post just because it may not fit into your philosophy, or bores you.
And on the 17 Rem, yes you can launch a 20 gr slug at that speed, but I surpass you by 200 fps on 52 and 55 gr. by doing 3950. I would imagine if I could get 20gr bullets for my swift, considering I get 4100 out of 40 gr, I would probably be able to get 4400 or so out of a 20.
Ackman, Evidently you did not read the original question. How does the 22.250 AI COMPARE in VELOCITY to the SWIFT. I will stand by my statement that if you have to compare it to a 70 year old caliber, then that must still be the benchmark. If that is stupid so be it. I have read some of your posts regarding other things on here, and personally I thought you folks got into some very stupid arguments over such things as best brass. So be it. Its your opinion, and your right to do so. But dont dis others for what they post just because it may not fit into your philosophy, or bores you.
And on the 17 Rem, yes you can launch a 20 gr slug at that speed, but I surpass you by 200 fps on 52 and 55 gr. by doing 3950. I would imagine if I could get 20gr bullets for my swift, considering I get 4100 out of 40 gr, I would probably be able to get 4400 or so out of a 20.
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tylerw02
Guest
Nobody got into an argument about brass...there was an argument about evaluation methods!
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Paul Fielder
Guest
It just depends on the application....
....of your hunting. I use my swift mostly for yotes / jack rabbits and for thinning does & prefer the downrange energy of the heavier bullets. It does not see a ton of rounds down the tube every year.
Plus, I have seen swifts almost completely take the heads off of does. I load 52 match bullets pretty hot......it is a swift afterall.
The ballistic arguement is too close to bicker about.....no critter will be able to tell the difference. I don't want to fireform so I'm going w/ the swift.....if ff is not an issue and you don't like to trim and pay more for dies and want something different, then go w/ the AI. Who cares.....they are basically the same.
If I shot A LOT at smaller varmints, then I would go w/ the .204 Ruger but the swift is king for what 'I use it for". My drive around off season truck gun is a 221 fireball in the LVSF.
I have a snazzy AR with a 56mm objective scope for shooting pigs under the full moon. Each gun has it's place and purpose.....don't 'need' them all but that is what is so neat about shooting.
pf
....of your hunting. I use my swift mostly for yotes / jack rabbits and for thinning does & prefer the downrange energy of the heavier bullets. It does not see a ton of rounds down the tube every year.
Plus, I have seen swifts almost completely take the heads off of does. I load 52 match bullets pretty hot......it is a swift afterall.
The ballistic arguement is too close to bicker about.....no critter will be able to tell the difference. I don't want to fireform so I'm going w/ the swift.....if ff is not an issue and you don't like to trim and pay more for dies and want something different, then go w/ the AI. Who cares.....they are basically the same.
If I shot A LOT at smaller varmints, then I would go w/ the .204 Ruger but the swift is king for what 'I use it for". My drive around off season truck gun is a 221 fireball in the LVSF.
I have a snazzy AR with a 56mm objective scope for shooting pigs under the full moon. Each gun has it's place and purpose.....don't 'need' them all but that is what is so neat about shooting.
pf
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Ackman
Guest
I did read the original question. Did you? Nothing in your post compared velocity. Number of years is meaningless. So get off it.
DR4NRA
New member
Ok here is something you should read Ackman.
.22-250 Ackley Improved
About 1937 a man named Gebby and an associate, J.B. Smith completed the work on the wildcat 22-250, simply the 250 Savage case necked down to .224 with a 28 degree shoulder. Some years later, P.O. Ackley increased the 22-250’s case capacity by re-forming it by almost eliminating its body taper and giving it a 40 degree shoulder. Case capacity essentially duplicates that of the 220 Swift.
This text is based on information from “Cartridges of the World”, Hodgdon reloading manual, the cartridge designer and/or own resources.
The last line of this is the proof. P.O Ackley in all of his cartridges basically blew out the shoulder of the parent cartrige to give it more case capacity, which I stated earlier. More case capacity means more powder, which means more velocity, in each of his cartridges the increase was about 200 to 300 fps for a given bullet weight, but his charge increased by 2 to 3 grs. And seeing how the swift was made a commercial cartridge 40 years before the 22.250 years do make a diffrence. And in the 22.250 AI he basically increased the velocity to match the 220 Swift.
So I have 2 Questions Why did Ackley try to Duplicate the case capacity of the Swift when designing the 22.250 AI.
Did he think that the swift was the one to beat ?
If the Swift wasnt perfect for its intended purpose then why didnt Ackley make a Swift AI ? Was it because he didnt think he could Improve it enough to make it worth his time, or was it because he didnt think it was needed?
Now if you have some useful non dissing input to dispute these facts and answer my questions, then maybe you shouldnt write anything and get off it.
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Ackman
Guest
To the original poster Murphy I'll say yes, the AI will at least equal the Swift and yes, it's a more modern case.
To you....your history lessons are unncessary. And all this stuff you like to quote, SO WHAT? Screw your questions, they're irrelevant and you're a bore.
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axlenut
Guest
Them that knows history are better informed and have a depth of knowledge. Them that are ignorant of history are not only bound to repeat it, but are usually dolts incapable of enjoying knowledge for its own sake.
P.O. Ackley was a bona fide .220 Swift aficionado, extolling its virtues on just about every critter. He wrote extensively on the killing power of the Swift using well constructed bullets. One chapter of his book mentioned Army testing of the high velocity Swift using solid bronze bullets to test penetration of steel helmets placed on old mules. The mules dropped instantaneously. The Swift reinforced Ackley's preference for small caliber light weight bullets at high velocity over Elmer Keith's large caliber heavy bullet theory. That experience led to his .17 caliber experimentation and hydro-dynamic shock theories. He did Improve the .220 Swift, but powders and barrel steel of the day weren't able to capitalize on the increase in case capacity.
Cooper Rifles of Montana offers the .220 Swift in the Model 22.
The idea that the .22-250 is a more modern design is truly meaningless - the .220 Swift is the superior cartridge in any argument today, due to our available powders and components. In a modern bolt action the Swift will provide normal brass life, and is capable of higher velocity than the .22-250. If one wants an Improved cartridge, then the .220 Swift A.I. is the way to go. Personally, I own rifles chambered for both standard cases and find the 20" Swift barrel capable of duplicating velocities of the 24" .22-250, with similar sub-MOA accuracy.
P.O. Ackley was a bona fide .220 Swift aficionado, extolling its virtues on just about every critter. He wrote extensively on the killing power of the Swift using well constructed bullets. One chapter of his book mentioned Army testing of the high velocity Swift using solid bronze bullets to test penetration of steel helmets placed on old mules. The mules dropped instantaneously. The Swift reinforced Ackley's preference for small caliber light weight bullets at high velocity over Elmer Keith's large caliber heavy bullet theory. That experience led to his .17 caliber experimentation and hydro-dynamic shock theories. He did Improve the .220 Swift, but powders and barrel steel of the day weren't able to capitalize on the increase in case capacity.
Cooper Rifles of Montana offers the .220 Swift in the Model 22.
The idea that the .22-250 is a more modern design is truly meaningless - the .220 Swift is the superior cartridge in any argument today, due to our available powders and components. In a modern bolt action the Swift will provide normal brass life, and is capable of higher velocity than the .22-250. If one wants an Improved cartridge, then the .220 Swift A.I. is the way to go. Personally, I own rifles chambered for both standard cases and find the 20" Swift barrel capable of duplicating velocities of the 24" .22-250, with similar sub-MOA accuracy.
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keithcandler
New member
I have had two Ruger 77 V and two Savage 112J's......
in 220 Swift. I have had one custom 22/250 AI with a hart 27" varmint barrel and one Remington 700 sporter re-chamber.
I shot a load in the Swifts that was 44.5g of AA2700 with the 50g Nosler BT at 4000 fps, little over or under depending on the rifle.
In the 22/250 AI's I shot 45.5-46g of Win 760 at 4200+ fps with the 50g Nosler BT.in a 1-12 twist barrel.
I never full length sized the 22/250 AI's and I never trimmed the cases, either.
Something that I fought on the Swifts, constant full length sizing and case trimming. In order to get the Swift to where pressures would not dictate full length sizing, I had to drop the velocity back to 3750 fps. There seemed to be two accuracy nodes with AA2700 with the 50's, one at 4000 and one at 3750. I tried IMR 4064, and throat errosion was excessive compared to AA2700.
In my opinion, the brass in the necks of the Swifts are too thick. NEW Brass hardness will probably vary as much as 10% over the lot# of brass, and the thicker brass will work harden at various rates which may leade to inconsistant neck tension. This problem always bugged me. I had Swift brass get so hard that it would skin the suface off the bullets as they were being seated, even when a heavy chamfer was put on with a VLD chamfer tool. I learned to anneal brass often. As I wore the barrels out on the Swifts, I sold all the Swift dies, etc. After owning the two 22/250 AI's, the Swifts seemed like a very high maintance B****. If I were to build a custom 220 swift, I would want a turn neck version with neck thickness no greater than .012 max instead of .016-.018.
No more Swifts for me, I had Pacific Precision grind me a zero freebore 22/250 AI reamer. I have seen the light, my brothers!
in 220 Swift. I have had one custom 22/250 AI with a hart 27" varmint barrel and one Remington 700 sporter re-chamber.
I shot a load in the Swifts that was 44.5g of AA2700 with the 50g Nosler BT at 4000 fps, little over or under depending on the rifle.
In the 22/250 AI's I shot 45.5-46g of Win 760 at 4200+ fps with the 50g Nosler BT.in a 1-12 twist barrel.
I never full length sized the 22/250 AI's and I never trimmed the cases, either.
Something that I fought on the Swifts, constant full length sizing and case trimming. In order to get the Swift to where pressures would not dictate full length sizing, I had to drop the velocity back to 3750 fps. There seemed to be two accuracy nodes with AA2700 with the 50's, one at 4000 and one at 3750. I tried IMR 4064, and throat errosion was excessive compared to AA2700.
In my opinion, the brass in the necks of the Swifts are too thick. NEW Brass hardness will probably vary as much as 10% over the lot# of brass, and the thicker brass will work harden at various rates which may leade to inconsistant neck tension. This problem always bugged me. I had Swift brass get so hard that it would skin the suface off the bullets as they were being seated, even when a heavy chamfer was put on with a VLD chamfer tool. I learned to anneal brass often. As I wore the barrels out on the Swifts, I sold all the Swift dies, etc. After owning the two 22/250 AI's, the Swifts seemed like a very high maintance B****. If I were to build a custom 220 swift, I would want a turn neck version with neck thickness no greater than .012 max instead of .016-.018.
No more Swifts for me, I had Pacific Precision grind me a zero freebore 22/250 AI reamer. I have seen the light, my brothers!
So my throat erosion came from IMR 4064?
My 22/250AI has been diagnosed with throat erosion.( Less then 500 rnds) I've jump around using H4350, H4831SC with the heavy bullets (8" twist Cut rifled BBL)and IMR 4064 with 55gr bullets) Today I will be using W-W 760 44grs behind 55gr Sierra Blitzking and Nosler CT bullets. My MV with 55gr bullets has been 3,900+FPS
My 22/250AI has been diagnosed with throat erosion.( Less then 500 rnds) I've jump around using H4350, H4831SC with the heavy bullets (8" twist Cut rifled BBL)and IMR 4064 with 55gr bullets) Today I will be using W-W 760 44grs behind 55gr Sierra Blitzking and Nosler CT bullets. My MV with 55gr bullets has been 3,900+FPS
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Paul Fielder
Guest
I'm going to play w/ N140 & RL15.....
....if the wind ever quits blowing and not 110 outside & I can get through all stars w/ my boy. Will pass along what I find out.
Have never seen a vssf that didn't shoot in a swift so we'll see.
pf
....if the wind ever quits blowing and not 110 outside & I can get through all stars w/ my boy. Will pass along what I find out.
Have never seen a vssf that didn't shoot in a swift so we'll see.
pf
keithcandler
New member
Paul, I agree, the VSSF's in the swift are something to behold...
it has always made me wonder as to why Rem did not chamber this cartridge in a stainless sporter....idiots!
it has always made me wonder as to why Rem did not chamber this cartridge in a stainless sporter....idiots!
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CHeetahman
Guest
Dr4nra
Why did Ackley improve the swift? Very simple it was all mechanical. Ackley states the Swift cases lengthen and require frequent trimming which finally result into case separation so in turn the improved version was longer lasting cases and less frequent trimming. Funny how ZEKE thinks that the swift does not require anymore trimming then any other case.
I have a tight neck swift on a BAT action and Stainless Lilja barrel and use Norma cases that have been turned from a great lot of brass and get maybe 3 to 4 loadings before I have to resize the cases so im my opinion that is pretty damn frequent.
My 22-250 AI is on a Hall action with a Hart barrel and rarely have to trim the cases. So I think that speaks for its self.
So if your going to quote, quote all and not what you want to use to further your argument or trying to prove someone wrong.
Why did Ackley improve the swift? Very simple it was all mechanical. Ackley states the Swift cases lengthen and require frequent trimming which finally result into case separation so in turn the improved version was longer lasting cases and less frequent trimming. Funny how ZEKE thinks that the swift does not require anymore trimming then any other case.
I have a tight neck swift on a BAT action and Stainless Lilja barrel and use Norma cases that have been turned from a great lot of brass and get maybe 3 to 4 loadings before I have to resize the cases so im my opinion that is pretty damn frequent.
My 22-250 AI is on a Hall action with a Hart barrel and rarely have to trim the cases. So I think that speaks for its self.
So if your going to quote, quote all and not what you want to use to further your argument or trying to prove someone wrong.
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CHeetahman
Guest
Tempature agrument
Zeke thinks that the swift is not tempature sensitve and wanted my study and basis for forming this conclusion well this is simple to answer.
Where I live the humidity is very high. For those living out west the air is dry so this in turn we can all agree this effects our reloading and the way our rifles shoot on a given day.
I have tried H380, IMR4064, N140 and found that I get better groups when its hot outside if its cold or damp my groups on average enlarge by half which aint nothing to sneeze at. So I think that was a bold statement for ZEKE to make. It seems that some are using the "I have been shooting and reloading for fifty years" agrument a little much.
All in all the Swift is an excellent round it has its short falls and I think the brass issue is its number one short coming. The 22-250 AI is an excellent round as well pretty much toe to toe with the swift in speed and killing power. However my vote is on the 22-250 AI based on the brass issue.
Zeke thinks that the swift is not tempature sensitve and wanted my study and basis for forming this conclusion well this is simple to answer.
Where I live the humidity is very high. For those living out west the air is dry so this in turn we can all agree this effects our reloading and the way our rifles shoot on a given day.
I have tried H380, IMR4064, N140 and found that I get better groups when its hot outside if its cold or damp my groups on average enlarge by half which aint nothing to sneeze at. So I think that was a bold statement for ZEKE to make. It seems that some are using the "I have been shooting and reloading for fifty years" agrument a little much.
All in all the Swift is an excellent round it has its short falls and I think the brass issue is its number one short coming. The 22-250 AI is an excellent round as well pretty much toe to toe with the swift in speed and killing power. However my vote is on the 22-250 AI based on the brass issue.