- Status
V
Vibe
Guest
I look at this thread and what BrentD has gone through to make his point, and I am reminded of a certain previous thread on Rifle Horsepower. Some people just have to take the long way around Miss Sally's house I guess. 
F
Fatback
Guest
3 Target example
Brent
I must disagree with your scoring example used for Beau, Joe and Butch. You used a PSL target but if your were scoring for us there would be a problem. Correctly scored using PSL examples the targets would be Beau 125 points and .0715 total string, Joe 150 points and .0655 total string and lastly Butch 100 points and .0890 total string. In this example the winner is the same string or ring. I must conclude that whom ever developed this ring scoring was not a total idiot. Granted this will not always be the case with your examples. I don't disagree with "string measure" producing the most definitive cumlative shortest distance to the center of the bull over any number of shots. But that is not what we are shooting for or the current shooting rule in these organizations. I also agree that changes in scoring all the sports that you mentioned took place and those changes came from within the sport striving to improve itself just as will changes in this sport. Those who participate will make the necessary changes to be fair and accurate to ALL who participate. We are all human and make mistakes when judgement is involved. But if I thought that anyone would intentinally score a target wrong to win or help anyone else win I would just go shoot cans behind the barn and not participate.
Brent
I must disagree with your scoring example used for Beau, Joe and Butch. You used a PSL target but if your were scoring for us there would be a problem. Correctly scored using PSL examples the targets would be Beau 125 points and .0715 total string, Joe 150 points and .0655 total string and lastly Butch 100 points and .0890 total string. In this example the winner is the same string or ring. I must conclude that whom ever developed this ring scoring was not a total idiot. Granted this will not always be the case with your examples. I don't disagree with "string measure" producing the most definitive cumlative shortest distance to the center of the bull over any number of shots. But that is not what we are shooting for or the current shooting rule in these organizations. I also agree that changes in scoring all the sports that you mentioned took place and those changes came from within the sport striving to improve itself just as will changes in this sport. Those who participate will make the necessary changes to be fair and accurate to ALL who participate. We are all human and make mistakes when judgement is involved. But if I thought that anyone would intentinally score a target wrong to win or help anyone else win I would just go shoot cans behind the barn and not participate.
B
BrentD
Guest
Fatback,
I take it you are scoring to the best leaded edge. If so, I will give you one more example.
Obviously,this could be shown for worst leaded edge as well.
No, I do not imagine that the world is going to change overnight. Never thought it would. But, it will never change if people don't know there is a better option available. And that was really the whole point. The pro league might be the place to give it ago too, since the quality of shooting will be the very best and because there is much more on the line than just bragging rights.
Believe me, I would never have brought it up if I knew I was going to be beat up, called names, and generally just kicked around for the hell of it. But so be it. You guys ain't makin' any friends for your sport. Not out of me anyway.
The challenge to Hov still stands, if he has guts enough to show up.
So, ya'll have a Merry Christmas and with a lotta luck, maybe Santa will still keep all of you on his good list. A few of ya ain't on mine.
I take it you are scoring to the best leaded edge. If so, I will give you one more example.
Obviously,this could be shown for worst leaded edge as well.
No, I do not imagine that the world is going to change overnight. Never thought it would. But, it will never change if people don't know there is a better option available. And that was really the whole point. The pro league might be the place to give it ago too, since the quality of shooting will be the very best and because there is much more on the line than just bragging rights.
Believe me, I would never have brought it up if I knew I was going to be beat up, called names, and generally just kicked around for the hell of it. But so be it. You guys ain't makin' any friends for your sport. Not out of me anyway.
The challenge to Hov still stands, if he has guts enough to show up.
So, ya'll have a Merry Christmas and with a lotta luck, maybe Santa will still keep all of you on his good list. A few of ya ain't on mine.
V
Vibe
Guest
I'm not sure BrentD understood that this is using "Best Edge" scoring and not center of hole scoring. Edge of hole touches or takes out the dot = 100, Best edge breaks into the center white area = 50, edge of hole touches the blue area from the outside = 25, all others are 0.
HuskerP7M8
Member
Why not? You gotta have a thicker skin than that Brent if you want to play here. Welcome to the board.
HuskerP7M8
Member
Beau,
You’re probably correct, but I often wonder how many valuable potential contributors are driven away from this forum because of discourteous and ignorant comments.
J
jGEE
Guest
WOW!! another win for me!!
Let me try and sum up here:
BrentD said, you guys are using a Craftsman Crescent Wrench to measure your target. Sally's House said "HUH!"? Brent said yea they make a thing called digital calipers that are more accurate. Sally's House said -leave us along -we can "all read" a Crescent Wrench and we are happy in Oz -so go away, (with Wilbur kill this thread being caroled in the back ground), lol .... he is just sayin, joe
Let me try and sum up here:
BrentD said, you guys are using a Craftsman Crescent Wrench to measure your target. Sally's House said "HUH!"? Brent said yea they make a thing called digital calipers that are more accurate. Sally's House said -leave us along -we can "all read" a Crescent Wrench and we are happy in Oz -so go away, (with Wilbur kill this thread being caroled in the back ground), lol .... he is just sayin, joe
M
MKnarr
Guest
Brent, I'm pretty much a newbie to this forum but I have been shooting and scoring targets since 1963 so please don't tell me I don't understand what you are trying to say because I do.
First, I assume that when you say "Crescent Wrench" you mean a scoring plug. Having score a lot of high power targets, small bore targets and benchrest targets and trying to measure groups with a calipers I can say from experience that each is almost as subjective as another. My opinion is the plug and 10X eyeloop is less subjective.
Second, How does one make a protest in your world when all the competitor sees is a number?
Third, that is not the way the benchrest game is scored. As has happened in the past, you are always welcome to start your own sport.
Fourth, what happens when the shot is so centered you have no center mark to reference from?
Fifth, how come every NRA and Benchrest shooting program I know of goes by score and not string measurement? This is a game shot for score. I can see that string measurements might have some merit IF you were measuring groups but groups are so tight today that your center reference point could be not found with as much accuracy as using a plug for score.
And finally, it seems to me that measuring by string instead of using a plug might take until the middle of the next week after the match is over. I mean if you have ever scored a benchrest target, well more than half can be scored by eye, no plug necessary. Some targets don't even require a plug.
As always, just my opinion.
First, I assume that when you say "Crescent Wrench" you mean a scoring plug. Having score a lot of high power targets, small bore targets and benchrest targets and trying to measure groups with a calipers I can say from experience that each is almost as subjective as another. My opinion is the plug and 10X eyeloop is less subjective.
Second, How does one make a protest in your world when all the competitor sees is a number?
Third, that is not the way the benchrest game is scored. As has happened in the past, you are always welcome to start your own sport.
Fourth, what happens when the shot is so centered you have no center mark to reference from?
Fifth, how come every NRA and Benchrest shooting program I know of goes by score and not string measurement? This is a game shot for score. I can see that string measurements might have some merit IF you were measuring groups but groups are so tight today that your center reference point could be not found with as much accuracy as using a plug for score.
And finally, it seems to me that measuring by string instead of using a plug might take until the middle of the next week after the match is over. I mean if you have ever scored a benchrest target, well more than half can be scored by eye, no plug necessary. Some targets don't even require a plug.
As always, just my opinion.
Last edited by a moderator:
B
BrentD
Guest
No where did I say Crescent or anything like it. Please, read what I said, not what you think I might have said somewhere, some time, some how. I did not.
All you ever see is a number - like 25. So?
No kidding? I would never have known. Thanks so much for this information...
You really did not read this did you? Search on the word "template"
'cuz this is obviously way way way too complicated, as I have finally come to understand.
And using a string measure is some how not? No you do not get it at all.
Actually, that proves you do not get it. This method is not about measuring groups and strictly used as described (please read) it cannot and will not produce a group winner correctly. Please read. Please? Pretty please?
Obviously, in addition to not having read this thread. Not even a decent portion of it, you don't understand it, and you haven't a clue. Not only could and should one use plugs, one can and will find this scores quite quickly.
I have scored countless benchrest targets in both fashions. The string method does take a little longer. But not a lot. We shot a match like this at Raton last summer, 50 shots, probably 25 or more shooters. Scoring was done in very reasonable time. If you get organized, this goes pretty fast. And I suggested this simply for a professional league where getting it right would be more important. This may surprise you and a bunch of others here, but I don't just shoot beer cans ya know!
As always, just my opinion.
As always you have mine. But why why why do you make such a post? I mean really, you haven't followed a lick of what I've said, you have attributed other's posts to me, and you really haven't thought this out very well.
But don't let me stop you....
Good golly
J
jGEE
Guest
kill it kill it kill it kill it......................
I think a lot of confusing has been co-mingling 2 different disciplines of shooting. Rimfire and Benchrest use two totally different scoring systems and they cannot be compared.
Rimfire - the center of the bull "X" is where all measurements are taken from. Benchrest the first bullet hole is the bull, not the target. In a 5 shot group... it is really a string of bullet holes even if the string is only .095 in distance- it's stall a string.
Rimfire "score" is just that a score, not a measure of accuracy like benchrest with 5 shot groups. In Rimfire the most accurate shooter does not always win.
Brents comment started out if you guys go to all the exactness in preparing your equipment why not use accuracy to determine winner of a match instead of score. His examples showed how the least accurate shooter had the higher score but the least accurate target. joe
Brent, I'm pretty much a newbie to this forum but I have been shooting and scoring targets since 1963 so please don't tell me I don't understand what you are trying to say because I do.
First, I assume that when you say "Crescent Wrench" you mean a scoring plug.
Hello Mr MKnarr
It was me thats used "cresent wrench" a sorta weak attempt at humor.
****
Having score a lot of high power targets, small bore targets and benchrest targets and trying to measure groups with a calipers I can say from experience that each is almost as subjective as another.
BrentD if i may, is not talking about measuring groups. With Rimfire scoring 1 shot per bull -his suggestion was about measuring distance from the bull, add the distance to get "string". His examples are an overlay of 3 targets for ease of camparison.
****
My opinion is the plug and 10X eyeloop is less subjective.
Second, How does one make a protest in your world when all the competitor sees is a number?
Third, that is not the way the benchrest game is scored. As has happened in the past, you are always welcome to start your own sport.
Fourth, what happens when the shot is so centered you have no center mark to reference from?
Brent suggested using a template aligned with the rings with a pin prick for center.
***
Fifth, how come every NRA and Benchrest shooting program I know of goes by score and not string measurement? This is a game shot for score. I can see that string measurements might have some merit IF you were measuring groups but groups are so tight today that your center reference point could be not found with as much accuracy as using a plug for score.
It looks to me like Benchrest groups are a measure of "String". Rimefire uses "score". It took me a little to figure the difference. Rimfire is "scored" by rings and distance from center of the bull. BR has no "BULL" to measure from.
****
And finally, it seems to me that measuring by string instead of using a plug might take until the middle of the next week after the match is over.
Mr MKnarr in no way am i disrespecting your words, i will never have the experience you have. Probably the word "string" should have never been mentioned in this thread. Brent was referring to a string of numbers.
****
I mean if you have ever scored a benchrest target, well more than half can be scored by eye, no plug necessary. Some targets don't even require a plug.
Did you mean RIMFIRE target?
****
As always, just my opinion.
I think a lot of confusing has been co-mingling 2 different disciplines of shooting. Rimfire and Benchrest use two totally different scoring systems and they cannot be compared.
Rimfire - the center of the bull "X" is where all measurements are taken from. Benchrest the first bullet hole is the bull, not the target. In a 5 shot group... it is really a string of bullet holes even if the string is only .095 in distance- it's stall a string.
Rimfire "score" is just that a score, not a measure of accuracy like benchrest with 5 shot groups. In Rimfire the most accurate shooter does not always win.
Brents comment started out if you guys go to all the exactness in preparing your equipment why not use accuracy to determine winner of a match instead of score. His examples showed how the least accurate shooter had the higher score but the least accurate target. joe
V
Vibe
Guest
BrentD never said that...That was jGEEs paraphrasing.
All else has been covered before.
Imho
If Brent D has anything to do with PSL, I will definitely not participate. First off, It's not his game and he has no say period. End this CRAP Wilbur, Please. It's going to be a long winter. Where is Al Gore when you need Global Warming Notices? Hey Chicken Little, how about getting in to the ACT. Se what BC started, another unless thread.
If Brent D has anything to do with PSL, I will definitely not participate. First off, It's not his game and he has no say period. End this CRAP Wilbur, Please. It's going to be a long winter. Where is Al Gore when you need Global Warming Notices? Hey Chicken Little, how about getting in to the ACT. Se what BC started, another unless thread.
B
B. Harvey
Guest
10 pages of arguing about a string....
It really could not be more simple, you hit or you don't.
It really could not be more simple, you hit or you don't.
B
Bobby T.
Guest
The Professional Shooting League to the Professional String League. Holy weeper's Batman.
Later
Later
V
Vibe
Guest
What it boils down to is this
5 shooters each score 2500-25X....who wins?
I edited the question in light of the nit pickers who refused to see the simple jist of the question.
5 shooters each score 2500-25X....who wins?
I edited the question in light of the nit pickers who refused to see the simple jist of the question.
Last edited by a moderator:
B
B. Harvey
Guest
There is then the X count, then the first miss.
Two tie breakers has always been enough to crown the winner.
Two tie breakers has always been enough to crown the winner.
- Status