jackie schmidt
New member
The NBRSA Tie Breaker is the highest number of wipeouts.............jackie
NBRSA Varmint for Score Rule Change
- Thread starter jackie schmidt
- Start date
Lord, man, do you have any idea how cold it must have been?
Seriously, group does seem to allow for a wider variance in "good" than score. R.G. can correct me if I'm wrong. But we shoot sometimes where a .275 agg is real good, and sometimes when it takes a teen. A mid-three isn't too bad if the final is a mid-2. I did notice that your example was a small two. And I'm too lazy to go & see how many shooters. I still think of 40+ shooters (3 relays) as typical. Somebody's only going to make a small mistake or two, esp. if there is a Boyer or Campbell or Euber or . . . (on & on) at the match.
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Great post Randy !
Just to update your memory bank a little, Carl Bakers 250-25x 19WO record shot with a 6-PPC was eclipsed by Al Weavers 21 wipeouts in May of 2006. The 19 WO record stood for 6 years. I am amazed it has only been broken once by a 30.
Dick
A
Andy B
Guest
I some how have a way of killing a thread, hope this doesnt because this is a good thread, but here I go.
Alot of opinions here, I must say Pete W. and Randy R. are pretty much were my thoughts are. As a shooter in VFS and would like to but never has competed in Group, I feel the only way to come back from a bad 100 score is to put it on the big sprocket and hammer out a great 200 - or - 300 match. Our ranges up here can and have Humbled some of the best. UBR sounds like a club match format. On Match day, I know I would not be satisfied with a 10x scoring method. When on any given Sunday up here it will take 20 + x's to win and at least 15 to place, those who feel they could have competed with a 249 with any number of x's is really grasping to win something. Show up on a crazy wind day with a .22 or 6ppc and you could win. We had a shooter from Canada at last weekends match with a factory .223 Browning that only lost 5 points on a day were out of 15 shooters, some very good shooters, 5 stayed clean. That was as good as a win for him. I have been as happy, And after shooting 2 249's this season a 250 16X was a win last weekend for me as well. I need something to shoot for. If its one more x next weekend or just staying clean, that is my goal. Not having a better chance of winning by changing the score of an X. I would have to shoot UBR to see how that would work out. With the high scores we compete against, I doubt the outcome would be any different. It may change the middle or lower end of the pack, but he who shoots the center will continue to win. That is how I see the game never having shot it. I wouldnt have anything to argue with myself about if I could win with a 249 and anything for x's. Maybe UBR for new shooters, you win 1 match and you graduate to the next level , IBS score ? I have read all posts and have my agreements with others and some disagreements. In both the "stay the samer's" and the "make a changer's". I see how a change in some areas might help attendance, I feel it could also have a negative effect on what IBS is / was. As I'm sure some agree or disagree with my statements. We all have our own reasons to play this game. Having options are good, but IBS score is still that, the Best Score Wins. You will, for now need a 250 to place. Sorry its the same for all of us who need to improve, myself included.
Andy B.
Alot of opinions here, I must say Pete W. and Randy R. are pretty much were my thoughts are. As a shooter in VFS and would like to but never has competed in Group, I feel the only way to come back from a bad 100 score is to put it on the big sprocket and hammer out a great 200 - or - 300 match. Our ranges up here can and have Humbled some of the best. UBR sounds like a club match format. On Match day, I know I would not be satisfied with a 10x scoring method. When on any given Sunday up here it will take 20 + x's to win and at least 15 to place, those who feel they could have competed with a 249 with any number of x's is really grasping to win something. Show up on a crazy wind day with a .22 or 6ppc and you could win. We had a shooter from Canada at last weekends match with a factory .223 Browning that only lost 5 points on a day were out of 15 shooters, some very good shooters, 5 stayed clean. That was as good as a win for him. I have been as happy, And after shooting 2 249's this season a 250 16X was a win last weekend for me as well. I need something to shoot for. If its one more x next weekend or just staying clean, that is my goal. Not having a better chance of winning by changing the score of an X. I would have to shoot UBR to see how that would work out. With the high scores we compete against, I doubt the outcome would be any different. It may change the middle or lower end of the pack, but he who shoots the center will continue to win. That is how I see the game never having shot it. I wouldnt have anything to argue with myself about if I could win with a 249 and anything for x's. Maybe UBR for new shooters, you win 1 match and you graduate to the next level , IBS score ? I have read all posts and have my agreements with others and some disagreements. In both the "stay the samer's" and the "make a changer's". I see how a change in some areas might help attendance, I feel it could also have a negative effect on what IBS is / was. As I'm sure some agree or disagree with my statements. We all have our own reasons to play this game. Having options are good, but IBS score is still that, the Best Score Wins. You will, for now need a 250 to place. Sorry its the same for all of us who need to improve, myself included.
Andy B.
This whole notion of "making a mistake" sort of bothers me. Let's run it from a different angle. If I can't get it out (& if he agrees), Boyd could probably explain the notion better.
How do you know your rifle is in tune? Because it shoots zeros? No. Because it shoots through $hit. The better the tune, the more $hit it will shoot through. (Yes, BR Central blocks a word I want to use.) What's a hummer barrel? One that shoots through even more $hit, or stays in tune longer.
How do you work up a load? Go out early in the morning when the air is clear and the wind don't blow? That's great for telling you what doesn't work. Seriously, if something won't shoot then, it probably won't shoot ever. But it won't tell you what does work, because we don't get the whole match in 20 minutes after full light.
Now group shooters know this. But for some reason, when they move to score, they seem to think things change. If you drop a point and shoot 20-plus Xs, you made a bad mistake. You'll get about what you get in a group mach if you make a bad mistake. If you're shooting 15-18 Xs, guess what? You're rifle isn't in tune. And if it isn't in tune, you can drop a point with a smaller mistake -- except, YOUR RIFLE WASN'T IN TUNE - how big a mistake is that?
How do you know your rifle is in tune? Because it shoots zeros? No. Because it shoots through $hit. The better the tune, the more $hit it will shoot through. (Yes, BR Central blocks a word I want to use.) What's a hummer barrel? One that shoots through even more $hit, or stays in tune longer.
How do you work up a load? Go out early in the morning when the air is clear and the wind don't blow? That's great for telling you what doesn't work. Seriously, if something won't shoot then, it probably won't shoot ever. But it won't tell you what does work, because we don't get the whole match in 20 minutes after full light.
Now group shooters know this. But for some reason, when they move to score, they seem to think things change. If you drop a point and shoot 20-plus Xs, you made a bad mistake. You'll get about what you get in a group mach if you make a bad mistake. If you're shooting 15-18 Xs, guess what? You're rifle isn't in tune. And if it isn't in tune, you can drop a point with a smaller mistake -- except, YOUR RIFLE WASN'T IN TUNE - how big a mistake is that?
Last edited:
M
mks
Guest
Squeaky snow cold, I imagine.
Jim's first group was 67% larger than his eventual agg. He followed that first group with four in the 0.1's. Seems like a reasonable approximation of a "come-back." Contrast that to score shooters who can do nothing to come back from dropping a point at 100 yards, and can only hope that all the other shooter also drop a point. They could hit all X's afterwards and it wouldn't bring a win without the simultaneous misfortune of the rest of the field. If that's not good enough, I'll concede the point. I'm too lazy to look further through the records for better examples.)chill(
Cheers,
Keith
LARRY FEUSSE
New member
I do not think the targets that we use now should be changed, but I am in favor of an 11 point system. Instead of the dot being hit to get the 11th point, I think if a shot is completely inside the 10 ring without touching the inside of the 10 ring at all, it should be scored as an 11. Some would say that this system of scoring will give an advantage to the smaller calibers. Yes it will give the smaller caliber an advantage on getting the 11 th point, but the smaller caliber is still at a dissadvantage when trying to hit any of the other rings, including the 10 ring, from the outside.
At a recent national event at 200 yds., I shot a 249 - 16x, missing the 10 ring only once, by a small amount. The shooter who won the yardage shot a 250 - 8x, as I recall . Who shot better? According to current rules, we all know the answer.
I agree with the person who stated that the 11 point system would give the shooter who messed up on one of their first targets an opportunity to redeem himself, and not be as likely to give up. Sensativity to a person's frustration level is certainly beneficial when trying to keep a sport active and growing. Also, it is easier to gain shooters when they can feel competative shooting their existing equipment, like a 6PPC, instead of feeling the need to invest in yet another gun (30 cal.) and all that goes with it.
I hope that this thread and some of these ideas can be beneficial for both NBRSA and IBS. Thank you Jackie for getting this started.
Respectfully submitted,
Larry Feusse
At a recent national event at 200 yds., I shot a 249 - 16x, missing the 10 ring only once, by a small amount. The shooter who won the yardage shot a 250 - 8x, as I recall . Who shot better? According to current rules, we all know the answer.
I agree with the person who stated that the 11 point system would give the shooter who messed up on one of their first targets an opportunity to redeem himself, and not be as likely to give up. Sensativity to a person's frustration level is certainly beneficial when trying to keep a sport active and growing. Also, it is easier to gain shooters when they can feel competative shooting their existing equipment, like a 6PPC, instead of feeling the need to invest in yet another gun (30 cal.) and all that goes with it.
I hope that this thread and some of these ideas can be beneficial for both NBRSA and IBS. Thank you Jackie for getting this started.
Respectfully submitted,
Larry Feusse
Last edited:
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Looks like ol' Joe got "agged to death", or at least to a tie. Isn't that the philosophy of a fellow named Boyer?
Last edited:
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
I do not agree with your analysis at all.
Looks to me like Joe is getting constantly worse while Bob is holding his position. Given one more target with same progressions Bob becomes the clear leader. BR is all about consistancy.
Bill Gammon
New member
I was not going to get involved in this discussion simply because I was the one who pushed this system onto the Eastern Canadian shooting scene, and also at WWCCA. I did not come up with the idea, that was Norm Barber and Harold Reger. I was running the Ontario Rifle Shooters Association at that time, (1985 or 86).
Fact, we were getting about 10 to 12 shooters out to matches under the 10-X system. When the 11 point system came in, our attendance doubled, slowly at first, but within 6 months we were getting 20 to 30 shooters at a match, why? Let’s hear your answers.
Fact, the majority of our matches, (under the 11point system) are won on the last target, and in actual fact, the last shot, in other words it is a fight to the end. Not lost on the first shot.
Fact, did we have people who were hard core against the idea? Without question, and there were discussions that are not even listed here. But you know that those people who were against the idea, 8 out of 10 came to me after 6 months or so and thank me for pushing it through and the other 2 don’t shoot anymore.
Fact, at WWCCA the attendance on the 10-X system was about 8 or 10 shooters, after the introduction of the 11 point system we went to 18 shooters on the average.
Fact, at the WWCCA match were it was decided to go back to the old system, 12 of the 16 shooters voted for the 11 point system, they were overruled by club members.
Fact, since then, attendance is back to the 6 to 10 shooters, why? Let’s hear your answers.
Opinion, Now before you start raising cain with me, just remember I gave you Facts not opinions. I have been involved with WWCCA since the mid 90’s and have just about all of the match reports, etc. and the first thing I ask myself are the advantages of the 11 point over the 10-X? From my experience, more shooters. And the fact that it is a tooth and claw fight to the last target. Is that not what we are all trying to do?
Have at it gentlemen
Fact, we were getting about 10 to 12 shooters out to matches under the 10-X system. When the 11 point system came in, our attendance doubled, slowly at first, but within 6 months we were getting 20 to 30 shooters at a match, why? Let’s hear your answers.
Fact, the majority of our matches, (under the 11point system) are won on the last target, and in actual fact, the last shot, in other words it is a fight to the end. Not lost on the first shot.
Fact, did we have people who were hard core against the idea? Without question, and there were discussions that are not even listed here. But you know that those people who were against the idea, 8 out of 10 came to me after 6 months or so and thank me for pushing it through and the other 2 don’t shoot anymore.
Fact, at WWCCA the attendance on the 10-X system was about 8 or 10 shooters, after the introduction of the 11 point system we went to 18 shooters on the average.
Fact, at the WWCCA match were it was decided to go back to the old system, 12 of the 16 shooters voted for the 11 point system, they were overruled by club members.
Fact, since then, attendance is back to the 6 to 10 shooters, why? Let’s hear your answers.
Opinion, Now before you start raising cain with me, just remember I gave you Facts not opinions. I have been involved with WWCCA since the mid 90’s and have just about all of the match reports, etc. and the first thing I ask myself are the advantages of the 11 point over the 10-X? From my experience, more shooters. And the fact that it is a tooth and claw fight to the last target. Is that not what we are all trying to do?
Have at it gentlemen
Dick,
Under the NBRSA rules, Joe is the winner because the tie breaker goes to the shooter who shot the smallest group. See NBRSA Rules Book (37 ed.), p. 52. para. (i).
My point is that we have differing views of who is the better shooter when one person performs consistently but not spectacularly and another performs spectacularly but not consistently.
Ryan
ray porter
Member
dont confuse me with the facts- my mind is made up.
well not me exactly but most others. i fail to see how such strong opinions get formed or how it makes that much of a difference. if i could vote i think i would cast mine for the 11 point system.
well not me exactly but most others. i fail to see how such strong opinions get formed or how it makes that much of a difference. if i could vote i think i would cast mine for the 11 point system.
M
mike in co
Guest
i do not know the answer...but my opinon is that joe shot more precisly in the first two relays. tied in the third and bob shot better in the last two relays....so bob was more consistant in the match, but he never shot as well as joe's .1 or his .15. since br is supposed to be about ultimate accuracy from a rifle joe wins....bob never shot in the ones , joe did.
mike in co
mike in co
mwezell
Mike Ezell
After shooting 3 or 4 UBR matches, I would still consider myself to be "on the fence" where the 11 pt system is concerned. I think it's a good thing if it brings more shooters. Keep in mind though, that UBR targets are smaller for the 30...both the 10 and 11, so hitting them is a bit tougher. And until the last match...I don't think I've seen tougher conditions to start a season with. That may have some bearing on my view. For me, time will tell...but hang the targets and let's shoot.--Mike
Steelhead1
G Vanlier
Randy
I have known you since the mid 90's and I shot alot of hunter back then and you ae right there never has been 20 people tied , I was trying use the analogy to say that if 2 guys have the same score at the end of a match the winner should not be given to one guy that shot equally as well as the other two but his win was attributable to 1 target where he shot the first X before the other one did! Here's the bigger point and I know you will probably concede my point. Hunter has been loosing shooters, you think about when I was at the nationals in the late 90's there were I think about 140 shooters at south Dakota likewise at Sherwood Or. Nationals how many shooters were there last year? I just talked to someone that was there and he said there were maybe 70 shooters thats half of those that used to shoot? So if something isn't changed soon it will continue to hemorage shooters, I don't know what the answer is, you know it can be a dozen things ie; fuel cost bullet prices, cost of getting a gun that is competitive on and on> But in my view the 100 yd target is way to easy and the proof in that statement is how many 250's are shot. You can argue all day long that the same guys would be in the winners circle and you'd be right, because these guys have mastered the wind and the tune, We all need to find some common ground that will bring shooters back to the benches and not pissing in each others wheaties! When I lived in Las vegas we used to pull 12-15 shooters when I left there it was down to a consistent 5-6 and 2-3 of them shot factory rifles. That was in 2003-2005 so you tell me what's wrong with Hunter!
I have known you since the mid 90's and I shot alot of hunter back then and you ae right there never has been 20 people tied , I was trying use the analogy to say that if 2 guys have the same score at the end of a match the winner should not be given to one guy that shot equally as well as the other two but his win was attributable to 1 target where he shot the first X before the other one did! Here's the bigger point and I know you will probably concede my point. Hunter has been loosing shooters, you think about when I was at the nationals in the late 90's there were I think about 140 shooters at south Dakota likewise at Sherwood Or. Nationals how many shooters were there last year? I just talked to someone that was there and he said there were maybe 70 shooters thats half of those that used to shoot? So if something isn't changed soon it will continue to hemorage shooters, I don't know what the answer is, you know it can be a dozen things ie; fuel cost bullet prices, cost of getting a gun that is competitive on and on> But in my view the 100 yd target is way to easy and the proof in that statement is how many 250's are shot. You can argue all day long that the same guys would be in the winners circle and you'd be right, because these guys have mastered the wind and the tune, We all need to find some common ground that will bring shooters back to the benches and not pissing in each others wheaties! When I lived in Las vegas we used to pull 12-15 shooters when I left there it was down to a consistent 5-6 and 2-3 of them shot factory rifles. That was in 2003-2005 so you tell me what's wrong with Hunter!
I vote to keep it the same. I also agree that if you hit a 9 ring, you just flubbed up. If someone does shoot a 249-24X, and doesn't win, what's the big deal with that? Has anyone here ever been having a really good day shooting groups, like four mid ones in a row, and then all the sudden a bad four in one? I'm talking when you have one shot go out on your last group, and you shoot a .5" group. Darn, if that one shot wouldn't have gone out of my group, I would have easily won that agg. All I can say is that I have lost many group shoots due to one bullet, and so have many of you. Why should score shooting be any different?
Michael
Michael
Mike Bryant
Active member
I've made so few matches this year, but am planning on making the July 4th weekend match at Midland and hopefully the second match at Seymour. I have a daughter-in-law graduating with her masters from Texas Tech, so can't make the match at Seymour this weekend. Normally, the second half of the annual meeting is at Midland at the Buffalo Shoot, but I don't know where or when they are having it this time since the Buffalo Shoot is being replaced this year by the nationals. I don't have a dog in it since I haven't had the opportunity to shoot varmint for score, but it looks like it would be pretty easy to score them both ways with an x count or with the 10 ring being the X and see how the shooters like it. Just a guess though, if there are two winners, the one who wins with an x count will probably like it scored that way and the guy who wins with the 10 ring being the x will probably like it scored that way. If it turns out that no places change, then one way would work about as well as the other. I won't be at Tomball for the varmint for score match. It's hard enough to drive 600 miles for a group match, much less varmint for score. However it's done, the guys who shoot it should be the ones who decide.
W
wolf gray
Guest
Hi Mike,
Just to let you know in case you are making plans, the Midland shoot this year is July 9th & 10th. Makes it a little tough on those who usually use the 4th of July weekend to get away for a shoot. Everybody is usually off for the 4th but I bet lots of people will be working the next week/weekend.
Best,
Dan Batko
"Where are we going and why am I in this basket?"
Just to let you know in case you are making plans, the Midland shoot this year is July 9th & 10th. Makes it a little tough on those who usually use the 4th of July weekend to get away for a shoot. Everybody is usually off for the 4th but I bet lots of people will be working the next week/weekend.
Best,
Dan Batko
"Where are we going and why am I in this basket?"