NBRSA Varmint for Score Rule Change

[mike in co]

well here i disagree with jackie....
you pick a caliber, it has a bullet with a given dia........we are not shooting pinpoint lasers...we are shooting rifles that have a bullet for a projectile....that bullet makes a hole...it does not make a centered dot.....the world is not fair..it is what we as a person makes of it.
so again, one picks a caliber, and live with the results....quit trying to make it "fair". it is a game....with lots of variables.....make your choices and go shoot...i personally consider ubr a joke. its like going to a basketball game and the better team has to shoot at a smaller hoop to make the game "fair".......what a joke!.

mike in co

Right now, we have best edge scoring. That does favor the larger caliber bullet. If you go to worst edge, that favors the small caliber bullet.

The solution that has come up in the past is use a method that measures to the center of the bullet hole, hense making caliber size a moot point. But the practicality of that is muted by the fact that the scorer would have to score each individule bullet hole with some type of precision instrument. I can't even amagine the logistic nightmare that would present.

As much as we hate to admitt it, the logical solutuon is the targets used by the UBR, which compensates for bullet diameter. I have no idea what the general membership of the NBRSA would think of this, but I would think now is the time to do it.

These targets will work with suggestion of making the X an actual scoring number, instead of a Tie Breaker.

I know that clubs would have to purchase three sets of targets, and their rule of going up to the next size works for someone insisting on shooting a odd caliber. ie, 17 would use a 22, 7mm a 30.

I am just putting it out here for discussion. If the object is to get more shooters interested in score, this might be the best avenue to pursue......jackie

 

[mwezell]

well here i disagree with jackie....
you pick a caliber, it has a bullet with a given dia........we are not shooting pinpoint lasers...we are shooting rifles that have a bullet for a projectile....that bullet makes a hole...it does not make a centered dot.....the world is not fair..it is what we as a person makes of it.
so again, one picks a caliber, and live with the results....quit trying to make it "fair". it is a game....with lots of variables.....make your choices and go shoot...i personally consider ubr a joke. its like going to a basketball game and the better team has to shoot at a smaller hoop to make the game "fair".......what a joke!.

mike in co

Mike, I felt that way about changing IBS targets because they aren't "broken". I think it's just another option. Options are good IMO. It does seem to be increasing attendance. It uses a 11 pt scoring system...that's what this thread is about. The caliber neutral aspect is another story. That aspect attracts more shooters because it's viewed as a level playing field....for that reason, I like it.--Mike Ezell

 

[mks]

Jackie
It seems that using three different targets would be a real pain for the target crew and scorer at a large match, placing the targets in the correct positions especially if there is more than one relay.
Kenny

Hat's off to Danny for trying something new. And for printing and distributing targets, starting a website, etc. That's a lot of work. And the new targets really do create a more caliber-neutral game.

There are 224, 243 and 308 targets now. To be perfectly fair to all calibers, there would need to be targets for 17, 204, 257, 264, 284, etc., too. Even with only three targets at each yardage, that is a lot of targets to keep in stock and keep track of at the range. Let me offer an alternative that would eliminate the need for caliber-specific targets: Produce a reticle that has rings with caliber-specific inner diameter, but uniform outer diameter.

This is how it would work: Everyone shoots the same target. Let's say the competitor is shooting a 6PPC. When the target is scored, the reticle is turned to the 243 ring. The inner diameter of the ring fits the 243-sized hole the same as the current reticle and allows for centering the bullet hole in the ring. But the outer diameter is the same size for all calibers. A logical choice for the outer diameter might be the current size of the 308 reticle ring. Same for the 224 - the inner diameter fits the bullet hole and the outer diameter scores the shot as if it were a 308. This way, all competitors could shoot the same target, be it the IBS target, one of the UBR targets, or a down-sized target. The only thing the range needs to play this alternative game is a new reticle with the revised ring sizes.

Comments?

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Charles E]

Some people have already made up their mind on this topic, most of us haven't, so we listen, not sure if there is even a problem.

I got a good re-education yesterday in what's going on. I shot two tens, back to back, that cost me the match win. Why did I shoot them? I shot them in a "situation" that most of the time I knew I could get away with. Apparently, not that time. Now I am good enough to know it was a bit of a chance, and obviously proved not good enough to know it was the wrong time to take that chance.

That's what experience, practice, whatever you want to call it, is all about. What matters, what doesn't, and how to deal with a situation.

So many time I sit at the range during a match, and listen to shooters talk. Some of the almost-never-wins will pontificate on what does and doesn't matter. They've tried it, and it either mattered or didn't. Case closed. What I hear is somebody that doesn't know what they're talking about. It's almost never a binary case of does/doens't; it is almost always a case of there is more than one thing going on, and that shooter doing all the talking wasn't good enough to recognize that. Not being able to recognize a situation has a result any of us can predict -- by chance, sometime you get it right, sometimes not. Just chance, not skill.

* * *

You don't "come back" from big mistakes, not in group, score, short-range, long range, skeet, rifle, whatever. Under normal weather, at 100 yards, you don't come back from shooting a 9.

Here is an interesting target change, courtesy of thinking on what Al Nyhus said. Suppose all we count is the X. It is either an X, or a zero. The other rings are only there for aiming aids. Change them to a grid, take them away, it doesn't matter. That, I think, would test precision shooting. Don't worry about "how bad are you", just about "how good."

 

[mks]

Suppose all we count is the X. It is either an X, or a zero.

Interesting idea, Charles. Reminds me of fun shoots, where you shoot at coins, paintballs, etc. Either you hit what you are aiming at, or you don't. Silhouette shooting, too. Either you knock it down, or you don't. Trapshooting, too. Break it, or not.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[mike in co]

about 8-9 yrs ago i shot a club 200 yd match that was x/10/zero.......
i won with a 200-17x.(20 shot match).....but there were a lot of guys that were not happy that day....
( oh and yes that was with my ar15 223 br rifle)
mike in co

* * *


Here is an interesting target change, courtesy of thinking on what Al Nyhus said. Suppose all we count is the X. It is either an X, or a zero. The other rings are only there for aiming aids. Change them to a grid, take them away, it doesn't matter. That, I think, would test precision shooting. Don't worry about "how bad are you", just about "how good."

 

[steve stanley]

Keith, the problem with what you suggested is the scorer would have to put the reticle on virtually every shot fired unless it clearly hit the dot. That would be a major pain for the scorer, and before someone asks, yes, I have scored a number of matches so I do understand what is involved. I am of the opinion that anything that makes it harder on the people working a match so we can shoot is a bad idea. Thanks, Steve

 

[steve stanley]

As far as the UBR is concerned I applaud Danny for doing the work and investing the time and money to see it thru. It appears to be a well thought out and very fair target. I don't see it favoring any caliber and the results so far appear to support that as all 3 calibers have won I believe. I would certainly not have a problem shooting them. It remains to be seen if this will grow or not but I wish him well with this endeavor. Steve

 

[mike in co]

sorry...but i see it as stupid....one match everyone shoots a differnt target...but we call it "A MATCH".....sorta like kids socker where no one wins, but everyone gets a trophy for "participating"..[
it this type of concern for "FAIR" that is killing american industry. do you know what colleges produce today ???....team players !!!!!! no individulas/ no free thinkers. corperate head hunters cannot find leaders...just "team player"....its a joke out there and now someone has done the same to benchrest......lets make it fair for all......well lets move the targets into 50 yards so the 22 rim fire guys can "compete on a level playing field with the center fire guns..." where does it stop ???

mike in co
QUOTE=steve stanley;627424]As far as the UBR is concerned I applaud Danny for doing the work and investing the time and money to see it thru. It appears to be a well thought out and very fair target. I don't see it favoring any caliber and the results so far appear to support that as all 3 calibers have won I believe. I would certainly not have a problem shooting them. It remains to be seen if this will grow or not but I wish him well with this endeavor. Steve[/QUOTE]

 

[virg]

Well, I've read all the inputs so far and...I still like the option of just counting the dot as the ten. Simple...just change the scale on the sighter to reflect this. The tie breaker would be number of wipeouts. But, even if we do nothing...I'm still in the game.

virg

 

[Greyfox]

MIke Ezell mentioned the Gallatin score match and suggested I share our experience with UBR targets and such. Danny Hensley is a friend and asked me to run some UBR matches this season. While I don't have any real problem wih the IBS VFS format, I wanted to support what Danny had worked on, so I agreed. Also, we have had some issues with dwindling shooters, so I thought this might be a way to attract new folks.

We have run three UBR matchs this season, two of them combined with IBS matches. So far the target problems have for the most part been a non-issue. Yesterday, we had nineteen competitors. Six shot IBS Varmint For Score and the rest shot UBR. We made a chart showing each relay and each bench with the target (and caliber) assigned to each one. My SIL had never even seen a match, much less been a target crew, but after the first relay of the first match, we had no mistakes. (Also, I might add that the initial mistakes were mine). So the fact that there are several different targets involved is really no big deal.

The idea that somehow "fairness" is the reason for the UBR format seems to me to be mistaken. I don't recall disussing this with Danny, but for me it had nothing to do with the decision to hold UBR matches and subsequently to combine the two. For me it has to do with attracting people to participate. If we don't make some changes here we won't be able to continue to hold regular matches. The basic expenses for matches the way we have been running them requires a minimum of ten competitors. Granted, we could eliminate trophies and run targets ourselves. But that's not really acceptable for several reasons. Many of us have quite a few pieces of fake wood, but new shooters still like to have a few. Competitors could do their own targets, but time would be a factor and there would be many mistakes.

We have chosen to try and get new shooters. With the UBR format we can encourage those who already have benchrest rifles in other calibers such as the 6PPC. This isn't being "fair", it's making the sport more accessible. Also, we can attract new shooters with a recognized "factory class". Yesterday, we had seven rookies. Only two had benchrest rifles, but they all had a great time and all assured me that they would be back and I believe them. If some folks feel that this format is silly, that's fine with me. I notice that some of the folks who are the most vocal about these issues don't shoot score and some don't even compete. I'm not really interested in their opinions. I am interested in the things that attract new participants and keeps them coming back. It appears for now that UBR will give me the tools to accomplish that.

As far as the scoring, I don't care much one way or the other. If I had to make a choice, I'd probably choose the IBS method, but that's just me. Unless something unforseen changes things, we will be running combined UBR/IBS matches for the rest of this season. It's working for us.

Rick Fox
Gallatin Gun Club

 

[MRL]

How about we just shoot a caliber specific match. That way more shooting for everybody, doesn't matter what you use 22's shoot against 22's etc... that way everything is equal and nobody can complain. Until somebody else wins; then we need skill classifications like the NRA events ( B, A, AA, AAA, Master) that way everybody is placed with a group that has the same caliber, skill level and desire to win. OR we could just go shoot and have a good time trying to beat the other guy

 

[JJ-IA]

well here i disagree with jackie....
you pick a caliber, it has a bullet with a given dia........we are not shooting pinpoint lasers...we are shooting rifles that have a bullet for a projectile....that bullet makes a hole...it does not make a centered dot.....the world is not fair..it is what we as a person makes of it.
so again, one picks a caliber, and live with the results....quit trying to make it "fair". it is a game....with lots of variables.....make your choices and go shoot...i personally consider ubr a joke. its like going to a basketball game and the better team has to shoot at a smaller hoop to make the game "fair".......what a joke!.

mike in co

Good point Mike.
How many points does a basketball player get for brushing the outside of a basket ball hoop?
Wow I was close that time…. Guess I need a bagger ball! Lol
A shooting game yes, a precision shooting sport no.

 

[Pete Wass]

gald to see people now saying UBR is a good thing ! it's a fun fair target i like the 6 bull 2 sighter bulls in the middle to ! only shoot 4 cards the 6 bull target saves time and money.

The Target inventory and preperation are my issues with UBR. It's hard enough to manage one size. We had nearly DOUBLE the shooters today we normally get. I had prepared the targets one day last week for 24 guns, I anticipated 16 because of it being Mother's Day and all, we had 28. We ended up adding another Target Frame and having to mark up some old targets to get through the match with two relays!

I was thrilled to have the shooters but I live 90 miles away from the range and there is no storage at the Range for anything right now. Perhaps for small venues where there is plenty of storage room, and one doesn't have to get the approval of a Board that has other priorities etc, etc, there isn't a problem but it looks to me like the worse it got the worse it would get.

Regarding the scoring system; this past winter I shot a few Rimfire matches and one of them used Worst Edge. Everyone knows it going in so it isn't an issue. No harm was done to anyone and everyone kept digging to do better. Another scoring system wouldn't hurt anything. Shooting Rimfire will get one use to not shooting 250's ever time and some matches don't have any. The best shooter will win, regardless of how it's done. In my view, it isn't the system that's the problem, it's the dread of perhaps not scoring a 250 and or not being good enough to shoot the best and most that keep people away. There is no Aggin back into Score. I do believe the relative ease to shoot 250's in VFS isn't a good thing for the sport. If scoring a 247-12 was considered to be a great score, perhaps more of those who don't come now would come out but I doubt it.

 

[mike in co]

lets try this .....
the stanley cup winner has to shoot at a smaller goal against every team....'cause they get more goals with the std one( my 30 scores more x's than a 6...so we made the target a different size for the 6)
pro golfers with green jackets shoot at smaller cups...cause they have proven they shoot(putt) better.
the bo'sox have to move the outfield fence in when the other team is up....cause the bo's out hit.
the denver broncos have to use a field goal that is narrower, cause thier kicker puts'em petween the uprights too often.
can anyone see how stupid this approach is ?
well that is what ubr is,,,,,,
telll me of another major shooting sport where participants in the SAME match shoot at different targets ???????

stupid....

mike in co
there was no problem...just 6ppcs getten beating too much...so this hat to be fixed. so create a problem..."the target is the wrong size for the 6ppc" (honestly for everyone but the 30....lol)

Good point Mike.
How many points does a basketball player get for brushing the outside of a basket ball hoop?
Wow I was close that time…. Guess I need a bagger ball! Lol
A shooting game yes, a precision shooting sport no.

 

[Greyfox]

Pete,
This is another non-issue. It takes fewer targets than VFS. It's just that it takes different ones. I'm sure that making up the targets before you get to the range makes a nice neat appearance. We have no idea how many people to expect or what they will be shooting. The targets are made up between relays. There are no problems and no delays. Buck Creek has been doing it this way for as long as I've been shooting (8-9 years). This isn't brain surgery folks. Oh-BTW- we don't use a storage building at the range. I keep them in my basement, one box for VFS and another for UBR.

Rick

 

[Greyfox]

lets try this .....
the stanley cup winner has to shoot at a smaller goal against every team....'cause they get more goals with the std one( my 30 scores more x's than a 6...so we made the target a different size for the 6)
pro golfers with green jackets shoot at smaller cups...cause they have proven they shoot(putt) better.
the bo'sox have to move the outfield fence in when the other team is up....cause the bo's out hit.
the denver broncos have to use a field goal that is narrower, cause thier kicker puts'em petween the uprights too often.
can anyone see how stupid this approach is ?
well that is what ubr is,,,,,,
telll me of another major shooting sport where participants in the SAME match shoot at different targets ???????

stupid....

mike in co
there was no problem...just 6ppcs getten beating too much...so this hat to be fixed. so create a problem..."the target is the wrong size for the 6ppc" (honestly for everyone but the 30....lol)

and when was it that BR became a "major sport"? I must have missed the memo....I thought we were trying to grow the sport. I guess we're trying to shrink it. BTW- pucks are one size as are footballs, baseballs, golf balls.....OTOH-bullets.......

BTW- where is it you shoot score matches????

 

[JJ-IA]

lets try this .....
the stanley cup winner has to shoot at a smaller goal against every team....'cause they get more goals with the std one( my 30 scores more x's than a 6...so we made the target a different size for the 6)
pro golfers with green jackets shoot at smaller cups...cause they have proven they shoot(putt) better.
the bo'sox have to move the outfield fence in when the other team is up....cause the bo's out hit.
the denver broncos have to use a field goal that is narrower, cause thier kicker puts'em petween the uprights too often.
can anyone see how stupid this approach is ?
well that is what ubr is,,,,,,
telll me of another major shooting sport where participants in the SAME match shoot at different targets ???????

stupid....

mike in co
there was no problem...just 6ppcs getten beating too much...so this hat to be fixed. so create a problem..."the target is the wrong size for the 6ppc" (honestly for everyone but the 30....lol)

All your examples have one thing in common.
Brushing the outside edge of what they’re trying to hit counts for nothing and the rules don’t allow them to bring their own “any-size goes” ball.

A shooting friend went to an NBRSA VFS match last year, his first one ever.
Shot a 250 @ 100 with a “22” of all things, none of the bulls were questionable they were all in, and he didn’t even use wind flags.
Yippee a 250! Lol


PS: In the poll a few months ago I voted to keep things just the way they are now, the threads are just too entertaining to loose. I have no intension of supporting the VFS mob by entering a match, I’m having enough fun shooting 22 rimfire matches. When the next more accurate for the “game” VFS caliber takes over, odds are I’ll still be shooting 22 rimfire matches.

 

[mike in co]

geo...tell me one other shooting sport where different targets are used in the SAME match based on the bullet dia used by the shooter???
everyone knows size matters.....
since you have "leveled the playing field" on bullet dia, lets go one more . everyone has to have the same recoil...ohhhh you sorta past that by YOUR version of level. so 6ppc now have to weight7 lb and 30 stay at 10.5....everyone suffers the same....
again size does mater...that includes size of the rifle.....

mike in co

mike you may not know this but size matters .

 

[glp]

PS: I’m having enough fun shooting 22 rimfire matches. When the next more accurate for the “game” VFS caliber takes over, odds are I’ll still be shooting 22 rimfire matches.

That's too bad!