NBRSA Varmint for Score Rule Change

If the UBR targets bring some shooters to the game that is a good thing. Some of you guys need to get a life, bitching about something that has no effect on you is silly in my opinion, last I heard Danny wasn't forcing anybody to play the game. :) The people who shoot will determine it's fate and that is as it should be.
 
sorry...but i see it as stupid....one match everyone shoots a differnt target...but we call it "a match".....sorta like kids socker where no one wins, but everyone gets a trophy for "participating"..[
it this type of concern for "fair" that is killing american industry. Do you know what colleges produce today ???....team players !!!!!! No individulas/ no free thinkers. Corperate head hunters cannot find leaders...just "team player"....its a joke out there and now someone has done the same to benchrest......lets make it fair for all......well lets move the targets into 50 yards so the 22 rim fire guys can "compete on a level playing field with the center fire guns..." where does it stop ???

Mike in co

Mike,
After giving it some thought I can see your point of view. But then, 95% of the people on this planet would say it's pretty stupid to spend several thousand $$ on a toy that is only good for punching holes in paper on a Saturday morning. Who knows, maybe they're right.

Rick (who never claimed to be all that bright):rolleyes:
 
Mike in Colo. your view point is noted and overlooked, the heart of the matter is this, targets be they UBR, IBS or a thousand more will never level the playing field, only a love for shooting with a little ambition, motivation and very good equipment will ever dertermine winners in this game. No one critizies you for your choice in equipment so what right do you have to call something else stupid???????
This will be my only recognition of your existence.
 
We have run three UBR matchs this season, two of them combined with IBS matches. So far the target problems have for the most part been a non-issue. Yesterday, we had nineteen competitors. Six shot IBS Varmint For Score and the rest shot UBR.

Rick Fox
Gallatin Gun Club

Rick,

I really enjoyed shooting your state IBS Score match, and wish I lived closer to be able to shoot with you guys more. This brings me to my question, do you foresee smaller IBS participation with holding combined matches? It is a long drive to find that most everyone else is shooting UBR, and there are only a few points available.

I have nothing against UBR, but I can't see myself traveling that far to shoot it.

Jim
 
The one suggestion here that is interesting is to just simply count dots. No dreaded 249's, not even any 250's. Just some number of X's with wipeouts as the tie breaker. That eliminates the 249 and out but it still favors the 30's.
Like Virg, I will be shooting no matter what the scoring method.
Joe
 
you should do some research before you claim no one critizies me for my choice of equiptment. i have been called every name in the book for what i shoot.had entire threads deleted due to the negative comments.
i agree its not a level playing field...its a game with rules and its STUPID to try to make it level. i am glad we areee on that.

i have no need for your recognition

mike in co
Mike in Colo. your view point is noted and overlooked, the heart of the matter is this, targets be they UBR, IBS or a thousand more will never level the playing field, only a love for shooting with a little ambition, motivation and very good equipment will ever dertermine winners in this game. No one critizies you for your choice in equipment so what right do you have to call something else stupid???????
This will be my only recognition of your existence.
 
First I want to say “Thanks” to all the Match Directors and volunteers who work so we can enjoy our chosen shooting sport, if it was not for these people, whom are really few in number, we would have less competitive shooting “opportunity”. It matters not if it is NBRSA, IBS or UBR, in my opinion it is all good and we, as competitive shooters, are fortunate to have these organizations to choose from and innovative people in our sport.
Jackie stated this thread started out with information about a rule change proposal that NBRSA was considering, from there it has been “all over the board” about other disciplines, their targets and their scoring procedure. I have shot IBS and UBR score matches and enjoy them both. In our area UBR and its “caliber specific” structure as well as the Factory Class it affords, has brought folks to the line that may not have competed otherwise. I have not heard a “negative” remark from anyone whom has tried the UBR target.
If there is some change or something “different” in our shooting sport, whether it be just a “tweek” in the scoring system or a completely new game we should at least try it on before deciding it does not fit us……We are so lucky to have these choices.

-H
 
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This all seems to stem from the fact that a 249-24x gets beat by a 250-0x, even though the former probably did a much better job of shooting.
Any thoughts on this? ............jackie

Jackie, to get back to the original premise of your post:

My feeling are that the competitor that fired a 49-4X committed a bigger mistake than the person that fired a 50-0X target.

Out here, we call a target like that a 'Fathead' target. Craig Nagel and the late Roy Oines from the Holmen Rod and Gun Clun in Holmen, Wi. coined the phrase...Roy even made up some award plaques for the hapless competitor that fires one of these targets. It's become a bit of a right of passage out here to get one. :D I've got one, fired with my HBR gun at the IBS Wi. State Score Championship. It was actually at 200, so I didn't feel too badly about it...though I would have traded it for a 50-0X in a New York minute. Went on to win the Hunter 200 and the Two Gun Grand that weekend, so all wasn't completely lost.

If you're down a point...you just keep digging and try not to drop any more.
 
It's first and foremost a SCORE GAME.

It's about having the best SCORE, Xes are only there to break ties. In Jackies case, the best shooter shot a clean score. Toooooo much emphesis is placed on the X thing. If people want an X game, play an X game where Xes count for most of the score. If people simply want to be able to win without actually shooting the best score, fine, develop an easier game. In my view, counting an X as a point makes the game easier.
 
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Pete, you are right. It is a score game. But at any given VFS match, including the club match that Jackie runs, there may be a dozen shooters with 250 scores. You never hear any of the shooters asking what your score is. You only hear them asking how many X's each has. The assumpution is, and it is valid, that you must shoot the 250 to be in the hunt. One of the complaints you hear from the factory shooters is that the Benchrest shooters are too exclusive a club; that they do only talk about the X's and that leaves the factory shooters standing around with nothing to add to the conversation.
Unfortunately, I have shot a number of 250's and still not had enough X's to be in the hunt. :( Course that would leave me out of the hunt no matter what the scoring system. So, I just keep digging as Al said above.

Joe
 
sorry...but i see it as stupid....one match everyone shoots a differnt target...but we call it "A MATCH".....sorta like kids socker where no one wins, but everyone gets a trophy for "participating"..[
it this type of concern for "FAIR" that is killing american industry. do you know what colleges produce today ???....team players !!!!!! no individulas/ no free thinkers. corperate head hunters cannot find leaders...just "team player"....its a joke out there and now someone has done the same to benchrest......lets make it fair for all......well lets move the targets into 50 yards so the 22 rim fire guys can "compete on a level playing field with the center fire guns..." where does it stop ???

Wow, amazingly narrow-minded thinking from Mr. Anti-ppc who thinks that everyone who shoots a standard BR rifle in 6ppc is a mindless lemming who cannot think for himself and zombie-like just follows the crowd.

What is so hard to understand about the UBR target, each of the three calibers has the same mathematical chance to hit the dot, after that it is purely up to the shooter to make it happen, isn't that what accurate shooting is supposed to be about?

As to the scoring, and I have felt the agony of a dropped point on the first target, in the true spirit of VFS, the most accurate shooter of all shots should be the winner.
 
My Region Director, Scott Hunter, called me and informed me that at the Gulf Coast Region Metting in New Braunfels, (I was not there), it was brought up to change the scoring system in NBRSA Varmint for Score. The proposal was to make the "X" a 10, the current 10 ring a nine, and so forth.

The purpose would be so if a shooter did drop a point, he would not be dead in the water, but could make up ground by excellent shooting for the remainder of the match.

This all seems to stem from the fact that a 249-24x gets beat by a 250-0x, even though the former probably did a much better job of shooting.

It was decided that this would be discussed at the big Varmint for Score Match at Tomball July 16-17, since there would be larger crowd of score shooters in attendance.

The tie breaker would still be the highest number of wipeouts.

Any thoughts on this? ............jackie

Score shooting IS about accurate shot placement, using PRECISION rifles - not being able to make-up for mistakes - it's sudden death! :eek: And I like it that way. :cool: For salvation, I'd go to church, or, to a group tournament . . .

This (above, in red) is applying group shooting mentality to score shooting. Further, proffered as a 'reason' for rule changes, it occurs so seldom as to be unworthy of merit: In over thrity years, I've yet to witness it. I find it odd, that the majority of people who want changes are the very group shooters who, when a newcomer wants change in the group format, advise him to come and shoot for a while before suggesting change.:eek::p The 'poor guy' who shoots 24X and drops a point' is rarer than the Dodo bird, and 25X scores aren't far behind.:rolleyes:

The last time I looked, the IBS record score (100 Yd.) was 25x with 19 "wipe-outs": that's a mere 76% of 'possible . . . still a LONG way from perfect. I've been attending NBRSA Hunter tournaments for over thirty years, and IBS VfS and Hunter tournaments for over a decade . . . and have witnessed a single 25X (VfS - and a 'shakey one' at that!:p). What would make people believe/think that scoring during NBRSA registered tournaments will suddenly and miraculously soar, "off the chart".:confused:;)

For group shooting, the notion, that one can "come back" from a lousy group, is just that - a notion - a notion is a poor reason to consider a rule change. At your next group event, just try shooting a 'nice .4something', followed by a 'come-Back', for the win! :p Or, for those who actually believe they can win/place/show using a .4" rig, please, take such a gem to your next registered event, a post a 25X! :)

As currently scored, the outcome of score tournaments is far more clear-cut than the outcome of a group event: in over thirty years of shooting registered score events (NBRSA/IBS), I have never attended a tournament, where, under the rules, there was any question of who won. Further, there is some history behind score shooting, which deserves a little respect, AND a number of us, who would like to see the establishment of a National Championship TWO GUN and THREE GUN, to include Hunter/VfS, and Hunter/LVfS/HVfs . . . when this happens, it would be nice to have uniform scoring.:eek:;)

Could changes be made - certainly, but NOT for the reasons at hand. :p

Many moons ago, in far away states (Missouri and New Mexico), during the membership meetings, at National Championship events, I proposed a reduction of the target size (a simple 50% reduction) - YES, for NBRSA Hunter class - and was nearly burned at the stake! :p While I could support smaller ten-rings, and more INCREMENTAL ring-spacing, for all NBRSA score shooting, the current proposals are unacceptable.

We have a well functioning method in place. WE know the rules. We play by the rules. When history supports the current method, why change to accommodate the 'concerns' over what MIGHT happen?:confused: Why not shoot for a couple of seasons and see what evloves? RG

P.S. I wouldn't feel to sorry for our shooter of the 249-24 . . . his gun works - how about his BRAIN? :p:cool:
 
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someone who actually reads some of my posts....
but still misses the problem.....
while ubr attempts to level the playing field at the target end of the game, it ignores leveling the game at the gun end.
guys that shoot 30's deal with a heavier recoil to get there. so why not level the field at both ends ?? why only on the target end...because it BENEFITS the the 6 ppc shooter, plain and simple. it is not "fair and equal". it favors the smallest caliber that shoots the best...6ppc at this point. anyone who fails to see this obvious imbalance to this new game is either shooting a 6ppc, blind or both.
mike in co
 
I can honestly say I have read all of the responses here and there are arguments pro and con for changing the scoring system and some great response's by everyone for the most part. I don't see any solutions though, but here's something to think about. How fair is it to go to a large match and lets say the top 20 guys at 100 yards shoot a
250-21X to break this tie you go back to the first target and its X or out,right? so 19 guys that shot as good as the one person that had an exceptional match 1 is declared the winner, the other 19 guys shoot as good as the winner but because of their first target they lost! If you want to level the playing field all shooters with the 250-21X have a shoot off, much like other shooting sports, they take 2 rounds to the bench, 1 sighter 1 shot for record anyone that doesn't shoot an X is out, you continue this until there is a winner, now thats fair!
Just my opinion and thats why I have not shot a score match in 5 years, I have a great shooting Hunter gun that collects dust in the safe, I shoot group because it seems to me that no matter how bad a target is I can still win in the end if get my head screwed on straight and shoot better in the remainder of the match's.
 
-- With Respect To UBR in the context of the NBRSA VFS proposed rule change --

Gosh. Evidently a lot of HateOrAde being consumed out there.

Every game has its rules. UBR is simply a different game with a different set of rules coming from a different set of ideas. It was only brought up in this thread because, minus the different sized targetrs, to be close to what was being discussed as a change for NBRSA VFS.

-- About UBR Specifically --

Someone once told me that "If it's crazy and it works, it's not crazy". My main observation is that the UBR format is succeeding in bringing shooters to the bench.

Another observation is that it is generating a lot of experimentation as people try to find that "sweet spot" that works. 30BRs, 6PPCs, 22-100s, 6BRs with mid-twist barrels, etc. Altogether a good thing, in my book.

FWIW
 
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I can honestly say I have read all of the responses here and there are arguments pro and con for changing the scoring system and some great response's by everyone for the most part. I don't see any solutions though, but here's something to think about. How fair is it to go to a large match and lets say the top 20 guys at 100 yards shoot a
250-21X to break this tie you go back to the first target and its X or out,right? so 19 guys that shot as good as the one person that had an exceptional match 1 is declared the winner, the other 19 guys shoot as good as the winner but because of their first target they lost! If you want to level the playing field all shooters with the 250-21X have a shoot off, much like other shooting sports, they take 2 rounds to the bench, 1 sighter 1 shot for record anyone that doesn't shoot an X is out, you continue this until there is a winner, now thats fair!
Just my opinion and thats why I have not shot a score match in 5 years, I have a great shooting Hunter gun that collects dust in the safe, I shoot group because it seems to me that no matter how bad a target is I can still win in the end if get my head screwed on straight and shoot better in the remainder of the match's.

Regarding the NBRSA tie-breaker: several years back, for Hunter Calss, we voted to change to the IBS tie-breaker, which reverts FIRST, to the match winner, NOT the first missed X. Should the score still be tied following elimination based on Match winner, then the tie-breaker would revert to the 'first miss-and-out'. I believe this (Match Winner progression) a much fairer method.

Now, regarding 19 competitors being tied for the win . . . I haven't observed anywhere near that yet. :eek::p Again, in thirty plus seasons of score shooting, I have yet to observe any of the 'might happen' scenarios offered in this thread.

Finally, regarding your statement (red, above) this may make you fell good, but, at a contemporary bench-rest tournament, it isn't going to happen.

How great would it be, to swipe the dust of that Hunter rig, and shoot for a National Championship TWO GUN title?!? :eek::cool: Keep 'em ON the X! RG

P.S. Not aimed at Steelhead1: Did I go on a rant regarding how SCREWED- UP 11 point scoring would render 200 yard/Grand Agg. events . . . calculate some 'possibilities on that one. :p:( Especially for those inflicted with group shooter mentality ( Who REALLY won?), that could create a real conundrum . . . :p
 
For group shooting, the notion, that one can "come back" from a lousy group, is just that - a notion - a notion is a poor reason to consider a rule change. At your next group event, just try shooting a 'nice .4something', followed by a 'come-Back', for the win! :p

Randy,
It isn't quite a 0.4, but I didn't have to look far down the IBS records to find that Jim Griffin started off with a 0.353, but finished with a 0.212 agg to win at Dunhams 30Jan11. Isn't this close enough to suggest that it's at least possible to come back in group, but practically impossible to do so in 100 yd score?:confused:

Cheers,
Keith
 
I like the target and scoreing system as we have today , the sudden death is what I like . You shoot a 9 - there will be another day!!
 
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