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fyrechaser
Guest
Don, I have the same problem too. 
Take care
Jim B.
Take care
Jim B.
The "outlaw" mentality will increase local participation but does not promote "the pursuit of ultimate accuracy". In addition, it will not increase participation at the national level. It would just be a never ending cycle. Local boys get a good match going but nobody knows anything about it outside a radius of 50 miles. Certainly nobody a 1000 miles away is interested in what happened in Hooterville. So, Sam Drucker and the boys decide to go national and get everybody involved. Hmm, you gotta have a solid set of rules first and you need to sanction the clubs. Then you get a whole new set of ideas involved and first thing you know either the rules are gonna change or another organization pops up. And on and on it goes.
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fyrechaser
Guest
F
fyrechaser
Guest
Joe H,
I just started posting scores in your factory sporter online matches. Since I have to drive 2 hours or more to shoot competetively, this is a great thing for me. I can go to my local range, put up some USBR targets, and have a ball.....all by myself! I am shooting for score against myself, and those folks online at the same time.
Recently a gentleman was watching me shoot at my local range. When I finished the target, he came over and asked what kind of target I was shooting. I explained that I was new to this disipline myself, but did the best I could to describe the match rules, the targets, and scoring. I made a new friend that day. I happened to have some extra USBR targets so I gave him some so he could try it out. We have since talked, and have decided to present this to the officers of the club as an entry level RF BR event. I don't how this will turn out, but if nothing happens from it.....I still made a new friend!
Joe, thanks for your diligence in making these online matches possible, it's greatly appreciated.
Jim B.
I just started posting scores in your factory sporter online matches. Since I have to drive 2 hours or more to shoot competetively, this is a great thing for me. I can go to my local range, put up some USBR targets, and have a ball.....all by myself! I am shooting for score against myself, and those folks online at the same time.
Recently a gentleman was watching me shoot at my local range. When I finished the target, he came over and asked what kind of target I was shooting. I explained that I was new to this disipline myself, but did the best I could to describe the match rules, the targets, and scoring. I made a new friend that day. I happened to have some extra USBR targets so I gave him some so he could try it out. We have since talked, and have decided to present this to the officers of the club as an entry level RF BR event. I don't how this will turn out, but if nothing happens from it.....I still made a new friend!
Joe, thanks for your diligence in making these online matches possible, it's greatly appreciated.
Jim B.
M
Mel Eck
Guest
Beau good post #42 we need more shooting outside in the wind reading conditions and learning what a bullet does.Knocking beer cans off a fence post with a semi auto can be fun but it dont help much on match day.Benchrest is a tough game the best gun dosnt always win every match!
J
JimDE
Guest
Beau, your right it could go that way but you now have a group of 50 enthused shooters at a club when before you had 10.
People need groups they can grow in and feel comfortable with. A newbe will not invest $2000.00 to see if they enjoy a sport. Coming in a far last with a $300.00 gun will not keep them coming back no matter how competitive they may be. The economy will stop their growth in the ARA when they chose .22's due to their low cost ammo comparitively.
I see the shooting sports organizations not just the ARA servicing the afluenent old school (yes I am a retired and a member) but in doing so they are committing suicide because as we die off there are fewer to replace us. We priced them out of participating. Look at the clay sports as a classic example of this, at one time their numbers were staggering but not any longer. Why? Initial equipment cost to enjoy the sport. Instead of forking out $1000.00 + on a semi auto shotgun they spend $500.00 on a video game system which is within their cost structure.
Some organization has got to take actions to reverse this situation. They need low cost venues for new shooters to start out in where they don't feel uncomfortable. A start for the ARA would be a 10/22 class or a $500.00 and under class. It is obvious that WE (the old school) have failed in making the shooting sports grow in participation and WE need to quickly correct the problem before shooting sports are gone. WE are the organizations governing bodies and WE are the only ones who can fix it.
The first and most difficult step is in recognizing the problem and accepting WE and our mentallity are the root cause to the problem!
People need groups they can grow in and feel comfortable with. A newbe will not invest $2000.00 to see if they enjoy a sport. Coming in a far last with a $300.00 gun will not keep them coming back no matter how competitive they may be. The economy will stop their growth in the ARA when they chose .22's due to their low cost ammo comparitively.
I see the shooting sports organizations not just the ARA servicing the afluenent old school (yes I am a retired and a member) but in doing so they are committing suicide because as we die off there are fewer to replace us. We priced them out of participating. Look at the clay sports as a classic example of this, at one time their numbers were staggering but not any longer. Why? Initial equipment cost to enjoy the sport. Instead of forking out $1000.00 + on a semi auto shotgun they spend $500.00 on a video game system which is within their cost structure.
Some organization has got to take actions to reverse this situation. They need low cost venues for new shooters to start out in where they don't feel uncomfortable. A start for the ARA would be a 10/22 class or a $500.00 and under class. It is obvious that WE (the old school) have failed in making the shooting sports grow in participation and WE need to quickly correct the problem before shooting sports are gone. WE are the organizations governing bodies and WE are the only ones who can fix it.
The first and most difficult step is in recognizing the problem and accepting WE and our mentallity are the root cause to the problem!
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I don't think coming in last with a $300 gun would stop a true shooter from coming back (it didn't stop me). That's not what drives the benchrest shooter. It is likely that they would come back with a better rifle. However, you are correct in stating that the economy will stop the growth of a lot of shooters. They will never leave the $500 and under class and never contribute to the growth of the current BR organizations. They are welcome to shoot now if they want. If the desire and dedication is there, they will come back. I would suggest inviting everyone you know with a high-end (or low-end) 10/22 to put it on the line.
J
JimDE
Guest
Your right it would not stop a "true shooter" but we are talking those entering the sport who are unsure what the sport is about and whether they want to become a shooter. Without new participants every shooting sport will disappear.
Few if any knowledgeable shooters would bring a $500 gun to a ARA match when the rests used cost more than these guns. A new shooter might enter once due to not knowing the game or rules but I assure you that only 1 in 1000 entry level shooters would return once they saw the game and understood the $$$$ out lay to be one of the boys on the line. Can't blame them either.
So here we sit knowing our numbers are shrinking, knowing the lack of new shooters is the problem, but grasping to the philosphy shoot what you bring and only place if it is a extensively customized expensive dedicated BR rifle. Yup, that will cause a sport to grow and be condusive to entry level shooters????? WE are our own worse enemy!!!
Few if any knowledgeable shooters would bring a $500 gun to a ARA match when the rests used cost more than these guns. A new shooter might enter once due to not knowing the game or rules but I assure you that only 1 in 1000 entry level shooters would return once they saw the game and understood the $$$$ out lay to be one of the boys on the line. Can't blame them either.
So here we sit knowing our numbers are shrinking, knowing the lack of new shooters is the problem, but grasping to the philosphy shoot what you bring and only place if it is a extensively customized expensive dedicated BR rifle. Yup, that will cause a sport to grow and be condusive to entry level shooters????? WE are our own worse enemy!!!
J
Joe Haller
Guest
Beau . . .
I just gota respond to your post #42;
Yup: The outlaw mentality can increase local participation. Our local matches are pulling in twice and sometime 3 & 4 times the the number of shooters at the average sanctioned match: Which is TEN. So we agree on that aspect of the outlaw mentality.
Five things we don't agree on are:
1. "The pursuit of ultimate accuracy"
Our club here in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan has a dozen members with Unlimited Class rifles. Customs by Butch Hongisto, Brian Volker, Gene Davis and a couple of others: But, no Calfees. I sold a Hongito Anschutz to a member of our club in Pennsylvania. I sent Brian two 40x's for custom work, that will be going to one of our clubs in Brazil. A LOT of our shooters all over the country started out with 10/22s and then moved up to custom rigs.
2. "Participation at the national level"
I could give you the names of many who started with us in the RFC matches who then moved up to sanctioned matches.
3. "Nobody knows anything about it outside a radius of 50 miles":
We have had 18 shooters from Australian. A bunch from Canada, two from Great Britain and a dozen are now shooting with us from Brazil. The radius is a lot larger than 50 miles. We read each others scores in Rimfire Central's "Matches" section. And, we read about the equipment and ammo others use in the matches. Some even give weather conditions they shot under and excuses for a poor score: (Some are pretty funny)
4. "A solid set of rules"
Many shooters helped shape our rules. I asked a lot of questions on RFC about rule preference, then built up multiple choice POLLS, with 4 or 5 optional choices for each rule. About 50 shooters voted on each of the rules. Our rules have been accepted by a majority of our shooters who decided to vote. That's pretty solid.
5; "First thing you know either the rules are gonna change or another organization pops up."
The second thing you know: If the National Organizations don't make some changes, they just might pop off and die.
Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)
I just gota respond to your post #42;
Yup: The outlaw mentality can increase local participation. Our local matches are pulling in twice and sometime 3 & 4 times the the number of shooters at the average sanctioned match: Which is TEN. So we agree on that aspect of the outlaw mentality.
Five things we don't agree on are:
1. "The pursuit of ultimate accuracy"
Our club here in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan has a dozen members with Unlimited Class rifles. Customs by Butch Hongisto, Brian Volker, Gene Davis and a couple of others: But, no Calfees. I sold a Hongito Anschutz to a member of our club in Pennsylvania. I sent Brian two 40x's for custom work, that will be going to one of our clubs in Brazil. A LOT of our shooters all over the country started out with 10/22s and then moved up to custom rigs.
2. "Participation at the national level"
I could give you the names of many who started with us in the RFC matches who then moved up to sanctioned matches.
3. "Nobody knows anything about it outside a radius of 50 miles":
We have had 18 shooters from Australian. A bunch from Canada, two from Great Britain and a dozen are now shooting with us from Brazil. The radius is a lot larger than 50 miles. We read each others scores in Rimfire Central's "Matches" section. And, we read about the equipment and ammo others use in the matches. Some even give weather conditions they shot under and excuses for a poor score: (Some are pretty funny)
4. "A solid set of rules"
Many shooters helped shape our rules. I asked a lot of questions on RFC about rule preference, then built up multiple choice POLLS, with 4 or 5 optional choices for each rule. About 50 shooters voted on each of the rules. Our rules have been accepted by a majority of our shooters who decided to vote. That's pretty solid.
5; "First thing you know either the rules are gonna change or another organization pops up."
The second thing you know: If the National Organizations don't make some changes, they just might pop off and die.
Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)
J
JimDE
Guest
Joe as I said before your out of the box thinking is to be commended. You are encouraging growth!
What I see even as little as 10 years from now that with a ARA current mentality not fostering growth that there will be 100 very high dollar BR rifles collected from 100 active ARA shooters (that are left after natural attrition as the old guard dies off and those the economics knock out) by the BATF and crushed when the shooting sports are voted away from us because 100 votes don't mean squat!
Change is never easy but if anything just stands still and rests on its larils in todays world it is going backwards and will not survive. Joe you have the idea .... Look at and adjust to what is happening and what is needed! The ARA needs to do the same.
What I see even as little as 10 years from now that with a ARA current mentality not fostering growth that there will be 100 very high dollar BR rifles collected from 100 active ARA shooters (that are left after natural attrition as the old guard dies off and those the economics knock out) by the BATF and crushed when the shooting sports are voted away from us because 100 votes don't mean squat!
Change is never easy but if anything just stands still and rests on its larils in todays world it is going backwards and will not survive. Joe you have the idea .... Look at and adjust to what is happening and what is needed! The ARA needs to do the same.
Outlaws
Being from Bugtussle I'm a bit miffed that Hooterville got mentioned in post #42 and we didn't! However we did send a skier and an oarsman to the last Olympics. One day a kid will show up and do pretty well at a sanctioned match and when asked where he learned to shoot he'll say, "Thompsons pit in Tuftonboro NH." Don't hold your breath though, it's childlike!
Being from Bugtussle I'm a bit miffed that Hooterville got mentioned in post #42 and we didn't! However we did send a skier and an oarsman to the last Olympics. One day a kid will show up and do pretty well at a sanctioned match and when asked where he learned to shoot he'll say, "Thompsons pit in Tuftonboro NH." Don't hold your breath though, it's childlike!
Why ARA
Why are all these doom & gloom messages being directed at ARA? I'm surprised your faces aren't Blue. Every year, this same topic comes up, a Wallah!!!!!! ARA did not dies. Joe's got a good thing going for those that want to shoot mail order. Keep up the hard work. Hopefully someone will be standing in the wings to take over the reins when you can no longer handle the strain. If they want to shot shoulder to shoulder and improve their skills, they have to get out and participate in sanction matches and prove to themselves, the have made the commitment to the sport are are ready to move up in life.
Why are all these doom & gloom messages being directed at ARA? I'm surprised your faces aren't Blue. Every year, this same topic comes up, a Wallah!!!!!! ARA did not dies. Joe's got a good thing going for those that want to shoot mail order. Keep up the hard work. Hopefully someone will be standing in the wings to take over the reins when you can no longer handle the strain. If they want to shot shoulder to shoulder and improve their skills, they have to get out and participate in sanction matches and prove to themselves, the have made the commitment to the sport are are ready to move up in life.
J
JimDE
Guest
It's not just the ARA but the ARA topic is relevant on this forum. NSCA, IPSC, and many others are not doing what they can to promote growth as well. Unfortunately if one looks around at who may be running this country the next 4 years one can see the shooting sports may be in serious trouble.
Joe,
First of all let me say this. I have read your posts over the years and I think you should be commended for the work you have done to promote shooting. I understand that you have grown the shooting community in your area and, from what I have read, I believe that it is you and your dedication that drives the growth and I respect that. With that being said, I think you are an exception and not the norm.
Generally, at least in my experience, local "outlaw" type matches do not promote the pursuit of ultimate accuracy because of the failure to have a person or persons like you running the show. They tend have a group of individuals who, for whatever reason, believe they must remain the "big dogs" even when the national scene proves they are not. They can be fun for a while but without proper organization will die a short quite death.
There are those who started out in local matches who moved on to the national level. As a matter of fact the national level probably started as a local match, and that's what I'm discussing which moves directly to your statement number 5. That's the end of the cycle and maybe the outlaw matches can start it over again. Another organization could help pull shooters but modifying a successful one will not help. It takes a great deal of energy, time, and dedication to pull it off. I will say that if we can put a Joe Haller in each club, that statement may not be true.
When I started shooting BR-50, I was around 30 years old and definitely felt like I was young by comparison. Now, I seem to be about in the right age group for those around me but I don't remember most of them from back when I started. Point being, BR is and probably will remain a middle-age to older persons game for various reasons. One is the ability to be sedentary while participating in a "sport". Another is, of course, funding as this age group tends to control most of the discretionary income. However, my equipment was not purchased in a single year and I doubt that most competitors was.
Finally, I did not intend to target postal matches which are another animal altogether.