Wouldn't this just make sense

that what i was talking about. i'll read the ara rules, but from you are saying is adults all shoot in one class and kids in another. is that how the ara rules work?( like i said i'll read them after this because we don't use the ara rules). a beginner could be 39 or 40 and just starting. not just somebody under a age set by the rules. yes agaes 7-17 are juniors. that is fine if that is what your group likes. there is nothing wrong with it. but most people like to shoot in a class were they compete against the same type rifle like a sporter, or a under 10.5 pound or 10.5 and up ect,ect,ect. by putting auto-loader into a group just for them it is more competitve in that group. it gives all shooters a chance to get more trigger time, and another reason to buy a rifle. i don't want to nit pick, but there are other ways to shoot matches and they seem to be fairer than the ara.
 
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dereck

When I started in BR it was done with a 10/22 and a 77/22. I could see from the start that I was out classed and didn't stand a chance. Did I let that stop me?? NO!! I shot matches along side the custom guns and had fun cause the BUG had already bitten me. I have since (5 years in the making)slowly but surely moved up to the bolt guns and shoot with the rest of the Custom Crowd and still love it. It takes time, money and lots of dedication and now the price of gas is killing us.. go figure!:D
 
Fiddler said:
When I started in BR it was done with a 10/22 and a 77/22. I could see from the start that I was out classed and didn't stand a chance. Did I let that stop me?? NO!! I shot matches along side the custom guns and had fun cause the BUG had already bitten me. I have since (5 years in the making)slowly but surely moved up to the bolt guns and shoot with the rest of the Custom Crowd and still love it. It takes time, money and lots of dedication and now the price of gas is killing us.. go figure!:D
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i agree the price of gas is killing us and not evolving to get new people into the sport will to. i started out with a savage markII myself. then i got a 10/22t, and last year i biult a custom m77/22. i now have my suhl. evolving has to happen for each of us and the sanctioned groups as well. with out evolving you will not get new people involved. our local matches had been evolving and then they just stopped because nobody seemed to want to do anything but shoot. nobody wanted to help they just wanted to shoot. by limiting classes to just lump everybody into one class makes it easier to get a directer and it makes it unfair to the beginners. we all as shooters have evolved and must exspect the sanctioned bodies to do so to keep our sport alive. when things stop evolving they simply drop out of existance. none of us what our sanctioned bodies to do that. we need to keep new people coming into the sport and making fair playing fields instead of lumping everybody together is the best way to do it. like i said we didn't use ara rules. they were easy to do but unfair to the mass of shooters. then when we made classes and set the rules it was much fairer and the shooters liked it much better knowing the rifle and marksmen that shot the best in that class would win, not the man in the lump of people with the best stuff.
 
Why change

If you're not using ARA rules, then why insist they change them to meet your standards. That like asking Cart and Indy to allow you to run your Go-Cart in the same race, but with rules that suite you. When I started back shooting, I was 41 years old. I started in what suite me and advanced as I improved. I didn't ask the other groups to change their rules to suite my desires. By the way, they had Adults and Juniors shooting on the same level. The only change they have made over the years, was to allow all shooters to use scopes if they wished. Now they have two Classes, and one may shoot in both. This argument has arisen every year for the past 5 years that I can remember, and still you haven't convinced the Higher ups in ARA to change their rules. They have refined them at the request of MD's, not by request from individuals that don't shoot the game. From what I've seen of the groups that have been posted here lately, some are way ahead of the average ARA competitor. Why not just bite the bullet and join us in a match and prove you worth and take home our trophies.
 
The Future is now . . .

. . . and it has changed
It just has not left Michigan's Upper Peninsula . . . yet.

Well: OK. It's started at a club in Pennsylvania and a couple of clubs in Texas, maybe one in Iowa and one in Brazil. Dick Wright is gona start it in Michigan's Mitten this summer.

Actually this "future" began in 2001 over on Rimfire Central, and it started with a little rimfire club down in Mission, Texas. About 15 of us in that club asked on Rimfire Central if anyone would like to shoot an On-Line Match with us. We had a total of 28 shooters from several States in that first match: January of 2001. Since then we have had on-line matches every month. Never missed a month in seven years. There are people all over the US shooting with us. We have a few from Canada, Australia, Great Britain and Brazil too. Some shooting in shoulder to shoulder club matches and others shooting alone on their own ranges. All reporting their scores to RFC each month.

We developed a set of rules that I felt would attract NEW shooters. It's been a well kept secret: Not mentioned much here on Benchrest Central. If you want to know about our rules: Go here:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180
And look around.

This may not have occurred to some of you guys, but I saw Rimfire Central as a GOLD MINE of potential shooters, and I mined it. Over the years we have had more than 900 shooters in the RFC On-Line Matches. I could give you the names of many shooters who started in RFC's On-Line matches who have moved up to sanctioned competition.

I brought the rules for that "On-Line" game back to Michigan, and our local club here in the Upper Peninsula is doing very well. In Chippewa County we have about 25 steady local rimfire benchrest shooters. About a dozen with Unlimited rifles and the rest using rifles that fit in our "other" classes. Factory Sporter, Vintage Smallbore and Semi-Auto. We spent a lot of time working out the rules for those special classes, keeping in mind that we wanted rules that would attract NEW shooters. Maybe you guys should look into what we have done.

I am sure that everyone here who takes responsibility for running matches will see a problem with what we are doing. It takes extra work. For 30 years we had 10 benches. Last year we had to build six more to accommodate more shooters. This year we plan to go to 24 benches. That's the down side, but the up side is we are building the sport.

Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)
 
I agree with Fiddlers comments in total. We all started somewhere and took our lumps until we gained the skill and equipment to compete. Some have deep pockets and can start out very well, but there is a learning curve for everyone.

We do not need to touch ARA rules, they are just fine. Rookies gotta pay their dues and show some dedication.

What does Fred J. say, "Commitment before Equipment" He makes a good point.
 
Choice

Thanks Joe for pointing out, there is a choice already available. I might also add, we have never turned away any shooter that shows up to our scheduled matches regardless of what they bring to shoot. The few that have quit shooting over the years, have been the Juniors. They have found other interests ( spelled Girls ), but their parents keep on coming. I've had to travel up to 5 hours just to shoot down here in Texas, without our own club. My wife will give up the MD's job in a second, if there was someone else around to take on the responsibility. We use the Democratic way of operating our, club, and that is the vote of the shooters decide what we shoot. Regardless of where these newby's want to shoot we wish them the best. From what I've seem of posted targets, I hope I get better so I can compete on their level before I die.
 
As a newbie to the game, I'll just offer my humble opinion and then shut up. :)

If there were a sporter class anywhere near me I would be shooting in it
simply because shooting with folks with comparable equipment would be desireable. Notice I didn't say "comparable experience", because I have a long way to go in that regard. :D Having a chance to do well compared to other folks shooting my class would be nice.

Having said that though, shooting my sporter against $2000 - $3000 BR guns doesn't bother me at all. In fact, it gives me something to work toward. If I shoot a better score than I did last time, it's a personal win for me regardless of the other scores posted. It means I learned something, or just got lucky, but I'm having a good time. I didn't go into this expecting to be competetive.

I'd like to thank the nice folks at the San Angelo Gun Club (TX) for allowing me to shoot with them in thier IR50/50 practice matches, giving me advice, and making me feel welcome. Great bunch of folks they are! I'll be there this Sat to enter my first IR50/50 sanctioned match.

Jim B.
Odessa TX

"Don't matter what target we shoot, we're all aiming for the X"
 
The plain and simple fact is....
1. If you want to shoot in the ARA then step up and buy the equipment to do so...
2. don't expect the game to change to suit your wants ,it has rules and if you want to shoot, then abide by the rules set forth...
3. HINT ...no matter how much you cry, the game will not change just for you...
4. You can get into ARA for about $2500.00 that was what i invested last year to get started ...Got my butt handed to me many times ,but didn't quit just said if they can do it i can too.
5. I went to matches and and competed ,watched the best in Texas and the US shoot .I asked questions and never once got a bad piece of advice from the very people that i was trying to shoot against.
6.You and only you can make the commitment to compete. The game is not easy, if it was there would be a lot more people in it ...
7.But then i am kinda HARDHEADED i don't want to beat someone shooting a 10-22....I want to BEAT the best in the country shooting the best equipment .
8.Maybe some day that will happen until then i can at least say I tried.

B.J.Hilliard
 
Jim, you have the right attitude, some in this game don't. The match director is so important, look what Joe Haller has done for the growth of the game. Dan and others are promoting the game at their range. Some folks getting started want it all right from the start, they get frustrated, and usually don't come back.

As stated in other replies those that get hooked will grow in time. Jim, I commend you for being humble and sharing. I see to many proud people in life with Ego's that get hurt so quickly. We are not our accomplishments and achievements. We are all in this together, if one succeeds we all do.

Take Care,
Joe
 
ferychaser, I got some bad news for you. If you shoot in a BR sporter class, you will be shooting against 2000$ guns, just like in ARA. Fact is, The "fair rules" that most new guys want are rules that limit the class to what they shoot and anything of lesser quality. Everybody wants to have the best equipment on the line and if you write the rules, it will always be the case. If there were a 10/22 class, the first complaint would be that the guy on the next bench doesn't have Ruger stamped on his action or we need a custom and a stock class, or since I only have a 12x scope, we need seperate classes for big scopes and hunting scopes. Fair and equal are not the same thing. Fair is run what you brung and have fun.
 
Run What You Brung!

Well Don, your line of "run what you brung and have fun" may not be original to you, but it still struck home with me! I never really gave it much thought, but it's what I do. When I first found out about Rimfire Silhouette I attended a local match. It was awesome for me to see. All the shooters had some version of an Anschutz rifle with custom barrels, and modified Leopold scopes in the 40 to 50 power range. I couldn't resist entering, so I did. I dragged my old 10-22 with 4x Weaver scope sighted in at 35 yards, and a box of Remington HighSpeeds, and ended up with an 18 out of 40 for last place. But I was only 1 point from the next shooter and I was tickled as hell. I run what I brung and I was within 1 point of a shooter with a rifle that cost thousands. What a high! For me, I wasn't concerned that I didn't have the right equipment to be competitive, but rather that I had done the best I could with what I had, and I had a blast. I don't want to shoot against other Ruger or Savage owners, I want to shoot against the best with whatever equipment I have, and learn to shoot the best I can with what I have. I could care less about awards. I enjoy the comraderie, and love having a blast.
 
Point taken Don. :) I'll just run what I brung, and have fun!

BTW, I don't nessesarily take that as bad news. I don't mind shooting next to unlimited guns,
so I wouldn't mind shooting against expensive sporters either. At this point I'm just havin' fun.

Jim B.
 
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Killough

Jim B:
Come on over to Killough Shooting Sports Range, in Winter, the next weekend. He has an ARA event on Saturday.
 
Fred J said:
Jim B:
Come on over to Killough Shooting Sports Range, in Winter, the next weekend. He has an ARA event on Saturday.
Click to expand...

Fred, I'm secretly planning to do just that. (if I can suffle some things around) I've met Dan a couple of times in San Angelo. What a nice guy! I've been so impressed with the folks I've met so far. I'm having a great time.

Jim B.
 
derek casey said:
. like i said we didn't use ara rules. they were easy to do but unfair to the mass of shooters. then when we made classes and set the rules it was much fairer and the shooters liked it much better knowing the rifle and marksmen that shot the best in that class would win, not the man in the lump of people with the best stuff.
Click to expand...

The ARA rules are not unfair because they apply to anyone who chooses to shoot ARA. This applies to the RBA, IR 50/50, etc. but the way to grow interest in shooting is to have sanctioned matches. Don't believe that? Do you think this board would exist and shooters across the country would know each other without sanctioned matches.

Derek, I don't know how you guys do it, but there used to be one group around Danvill that shot at 40 yards. They allowed any rifle in unless it happened to be a very good rifle then new "rules" started popping up. It used to be the same way in the London/Corbin area, where I and two other shooters were outlawed for having stainless barrels although other shooters had stainless barrels. Ours just happened to say "Calfee" on them and I think he must be some sort of criminal or something because those barrels just didn't set well with those guys. The problem with non-sanctioned "behind the barn" shooting is the ability to change the rules on the fly. I know I'm rambling and like I said I don't know how you guys do it, but I hope you're not making ground rules.
 
Bad News - A Typo?

The High Dollar Sporter Class

I wrote to Helen about 10 years ago asking for a copy of the IR-50/50 rules. This was before the birth of RBA. I had to quit centerfire because of a hearing lose and had decided to get into rimfire. When I saw Milt & Helen's Sporter rules, I thought: "This ain't gona work for us". The cost of building a Sporter was almost as much as the cost of an ARA unlimited rifle.

I later learned that the rules had been changed to allow custom rifles because the Anschutz and Cooper rifles were winning all the matches.

In my humble opinion that Sporter Rule closed the door on the "average" guy who might be thinking of getting into our game.

We took a different route when we set up the FACTORY SPORTER class for the RFC On-Line Matches, four years ago. We limited the blue book 100% value to $500. That cut out the Anschutz and the Cooper, and we did not allow custom barrels or custom stocks. Here at my home range we now have almost as many Factory Sporter rifles as we have Unlimited, and some of our Custom guys are now buying into the "cheap" Factory Sporter Class.

Some folks call us Outlaws, but we are pulling in new shooters with our outlaw rules, here at my local club, at a handful of other "local" clubs, and in Rimfire Central's On-Line Matches too.

Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)
 
Joe, That "outlaw" mentality is exactly what might be needed to increase participation in the shooting sports. We can surely see that the organizations currently managing the various shooting venues are failing to develop growth. Without sheer numbers we who enjoy shooting will lose our right and shooting heritage to pass down to our grandchildren. The anti's thrive on our divisions and if we make any shooting venue cost prohibitive for the average individual to participate then we are killing ourselves.

Congradulations for having the guts to think out of the box and promote growth and unity among new and established shooters Joe. "Outlaw" thinking is working ..... Keep it up! ;)
 
fyrechaser said:
Surely that is just a typo.....hope so......

:)

Jim B.
Click to expand...

Most certainly was sir, my apoligies..I don't spell or type real well and the memory is fading fast so the odds of me getting it right are getting slimmer every day.
 
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