Wouldn't this just make sense

J

JimDE

Guest
I've read all the posts about 10/22's and accuracy potentials etc... Wouldn't just make sense with as endangered as shooting sports are becoming for organizations like the ARA to have a class for semi autos to shoot in to join the ranks. These posting duels add fuel to the anti's fire.

IMHO we as shooters need to join together in these times and competitions that involve all shooters just make sense. Then if a die in the wool bolt action shooter wants to play with a semi he can. If a semi auto shooter wants to get involved with the bolt actions he can without joining another organization or shooting at a different location with different shooters.

Sure would show a unity of those who enjoy the shooting sports.
 
ARA does have a class for semi-autos to shoot in; it's the same as every other class (the only class), but they are certainly welcome.
 
Beau, I really think the sheer volume of semi auto shooters having a class in the ARA could do nothing but help benchrest shooting as a whole. Not to mention slowing down the bickering because the scores don't lie. I see it as a win/win situation.
 
I think the beauty and attraction of ARA is few rules and one class (unlimited). Personally, as a long-time ARA participant, I would not want to see it change to a class system. I don't mean to be anti-progressive, but I believe the sheer volume of 10-22's in ARA would do nothing but create disinterest in the current shooters. Just my opinion. A totally seperate BR organization limited to autos may be the best option.
 
JimDE -
I think you're correct about everyone "supporting" everyone else. Even if there are different "classes" like you mentioned, it'd be a pretty good idea, because it'd get more people interested. I'm a newcomer to the game of competitive shooting, but I'd lament seeing it die out... I'm shooting in my first competitions this year, and the indoor league I stumbled into is basically shooting whatever you want. I think it's pretty cool. Some guys have these really slick Sakos, one guy has a rather modified 10/22, and I'm shooting a bargain-bin Savage MKII. It's really pretty neat.
 
Beau -
I don't have any ARA experience like you do, but I see your point with creating disinterest. Perhaps they could simply create a semi-auto class? But then again, anyone wanting to dump a bunch of money in a 10/22 to make it shoot THAT good may as well buy a decent bolt gun, eh? My Savage cost me about 250 bones and it has out-shot a lot of other more expensive guns this spring. Seriously, it's totally stock, and shooting indoors at IBS 50 targets it is shooting in the 245 range, and I'm certain it can shoot a 250, but I can't! And that's with a cheap scope and cheap Wolf ammo. I guess my next question is why anyone would seem inclined to use a semi-auto if they can get decent bolt guns for just as little money. Is that a fair question?
 
the only thing i can see is the 10/22 can be upgraded totally by the shooter and would give a shooter another class to shoot in. it would help bring new blood into the sport and they would end up buying a better rifle to shoot with when they get into it. it could be a good thing all the way around. it would give most sanctioned bodies one more class for shooters to spend trigger time in. that is what it is really all about. the trigger time:D!!
 
Derek, I do see that happening too. Either they will compete to be top dog in the semi class or when they see the point difference at 50yrds between their best scores and ARA unlimited scores the competition blood will flow and they may jump classes and have a bolt action built.

I can see where long time ARA competitors might have issue with an additional class and the volume of new BR shooters it would initially bring to the line. But, without a doubt it would add to their ranks and their sport would grow in a time when shooting sports are dying a slow death. Overall, it sure couldn't hurt.

With one and only one class IMHO he who has the most bucks (and the steadiest form) wins. Look at the records ... all highly customized guns. What does the ARA offer a new shooter with a limited bank role to make them come back to shoot again. He isn't going to win with a out of the box 10/77 or Savage bolt action. Try and remember when we started shooting ... would we be shooting today if it cost what it does today to shoot back when we started? Yeah a new shooter with a bank role won't win (at first) either but he will be more competitive. We don't need anymore cost prohibitive outdoor activities to reduce our ranks. We need to offer a sport to every level of participant and every kind of firearm.

Just some food for thought......
 
Your idea is definitely...

the way to do it. We have run centerfire matches locally for eighteen years and have been very successful getting new shooters by always including a "Factory Class". We are starting rimfire matches this year, in addition to the the CF, and they will include Factory Class.

We thought very seriously about going with ARA matches and, eventually, rejected the idea. The ARA target is extremely difficult and the only equipment that will be competitive is very expensive. Any innocent that shows up with a 10-22 shoots one time and never comes back.

If you check the Michigan match results in the ARA newsletter, you will find that normal, average match attendence is probably about eight or ten shooters, tournaments and the state championship excepted. I have shot in these matches and I can count.

In contrast, Joe Haller runs 25 and 50 yd. rimfire matches in the Upper Pennisula that are much more heavily attended. We were there last August when he had forty competitors.

Last year our club spent a lot of money putting good concrete benches on our 25 and 50 yd. line. The line is on a big concrete slab and is covered. We need a lot of competitors in order to pay back the investment. You tell me which way was best to go...

Any Factory Class is a huge P.I.A. for the match director. I's almost impossible to define on paper what a Factory Rifle is. As soon as you write rules that do define it, some "Jail House Lawyer" will figure out how to circumvent them.

This year I bought the easiest possible official targets (IBS Rimfire) to give factory gun shooters the best chance to hit the ten ring. We shoot one target at 25 yds. and another at 50 yds. Highest aggregate score wins.

As a very-long-time match director I would much prefer to run matches where only good, experienced, well equipped shooters show up. However, that's a terrible way to grow the sport.

Any Michigan or Ontario shooters that want a schedule for our 2008 matches, contact me.

Dick Wright
 
IR50/50 offered a factory class last year. The clubs that I know of did not have a single person show up to shoot factory class. I do think it is a good idea, but am skeptical it will develop into anything.
If I remember correctly the IBS target is a dimensional copy of the IR 50/50 100 yard target. Blackcreek shot it one year and a 249 wouild be dead last so interest faded quickly.
At one time IR offered a cash prize to the first semi-auto to shoot a 250 in competition. That brought out a small spate of 10/22 shooters but they were highly customized jobs with Jewell triggers etc.
Don
 
I don't know what a custom 10/22 with barrel, trigger, etc costs, but I suspect that the high quality stuff would be around a $1,000 fully equipped, and you would get an equipment race in the 10/22 class too. For a little more, you can have a competitive bolt gun. All the accessories cost about the same regardless which venue you use. As far as ending the bickering, put the 10/22 on the line with ARA rifles (they are allowed). The scores don't and won't lie. ARA is not a rich man's game but it does require an outlay of cash. Whether it's done slowly or all at once is up to the competitor.

The other point to consider is the match director. Now you may find someone to take the 10/22 class and run with it but most of the time it's still going to add to the match director's work. I've acted as match director and generally it's a thankless job that's not a lot of fun. I don't see adding to the director's work load. I think that's where we need to concentrate efforts. Help the directors and make them a little more happy to do the job and ensure that the range is around the following year.

Also it does not have to be ARA.
 
Beau, I see your point and respect it. Also I agree even a 10/22 class would be an equipment race as well as nearly every shooting sport gets into (archery, pistol, rifle, clays, etc...). Just the nature of the sport and small holes cost.

I am surprised at the low participation in a stock class. But, I am sure it would take awhile to make shooters aware of the events and get them to come out and enjoy it. Change (even for the good) takes time in our shooting sports.

I do strongly feel that we are guilty of allowing the costs of shooting in every venue to be beyond that can be afforded by our youth or those interested in entering the shooting sports. Want to puke look are the price of entry level O/U Browning shotguns for the clay sports. This is the price for two hunks of pipe silver soldered on top of each other? Sickening because if we didn't pay the price they are asking the prices would not be that high .... Manufacturers are always increasing prices to test what the market will tolerate. But this is off topic and another issue all in itself.

There is a huge number of semi auto shooters out there looking for something enjoyable to do with their rifles that a wise shooting organization would do well in recruiting to their ranks by making a class for them to shoot in. Being as 10/22's seem to be a stepping block to serious BR shooting for some it seemed logical that the ARA would try to gather them up into their ranks.
 
heres one way of doing it. have 2 matches a month.say like the second weekend of the month have a auto-loader match. then on the fourth weekend have the bolt gun matches. i believe alot of the bolt gun owner(even though we know the auto-loaders are not as accurate) would shoot in each class just to gain more points and to spend more time behind the trigger. and while shooting with the new guys they could help to coach them into being better shooters and then when the time was right they could step up into the bolt gun classes with the big boys and continue their induction into match shooting. the auto-loader matches could be a mentoring in a way to help bring new blood into the bigger matches. by having them 2 weeks apart it would give the match diretor a chance to rest, and the new shooters could come and watch the big guys and start to learn that as well. just a ideal. and somebody was talking about the price of a custom 10/22. i have one that i have $1200 in. all the guys i was shooting with tried to tell me i was throwing monet away. i could have baught a 40x or a suhl back then for less than what i put in the 10/22. now when they talk i listen and learn.
 
It's been my experience that 10/22 guys are not competitive or they would not have built a 10/22 in the first place but in case I'm wrong, I'll sponsor a class for 10/22's at all the Bar B shoots this year. If you got em and want to shoot them, bring them.
 
JimDE said:
Manufacturers are always increasing prices to test what the market will tolerate. But this is off topic and another issue all in itself. QUOTE]

You're right there and we continue to pay (just try to buy good ammo even at the elevated price). But that is another story.

Anyway, I shot a couple of matches last year and (in both matches) sat beside a guy with a 10/22. He posted decent scores but finished close to last. He didn't attend two later matches and I don't know if he was frustrated or not. But the point is, he had a good shooting 10/22 yet he seemed to have no desire to upgrade to a bolt gun. So, let's say you gather in 100 10/22 benchresters. A few rise to the top as is always the case, a few leave because of lack of interest, and others don't want to spend the money for the equipment race. Let's say we end up with 25 who are interested so they buy bolt rifles and then get there butt handed to them after thinking they were doing good. You might, out of a hundred, end up with 2-5 that actually end up shooting full blown ARA. I think you could do just as well by promoting the 10/22's to shoot side by side with the bolt guns. The guys who get the bug will get it anyway.
Click to expand...
 
We have just started shooting at our new range, so time will tell if this works. We are having ARA matches. We also have a semi-auto class, and a box stock class. We all shoot together at the same time. The box stock and the semi-auto class get separate awards, so they are competiting against like guns. I think it will bring new shooters in, and introduce them to what we do.

We will see if it works,
Dan Killough
www.killoughshootingsports.com
 
Numbers game

Hat's off to the MD that will offer the Beginners a class of their own and take the time to administer it. The problem I see in it, is when an ARA competitor sits down on the line, he/she only sees the number of competitors on the line, or in attendance. When the final report goes in, the winner and all those that finished well, will expect the points to equal the attendance. Example: 10 shooters X 6 target will equal 60 points available per target. Any less, will not meet the rules for an ARA event. I believe when ARA set up their rules in 1998, they took all this into consideration, thus, one unlimited class period, with less rules.
 
Fred, I had not planned on the 10/22 folks not being on the match report or contributing to the entry fee or the point total. The extra awards and recognition for being the best 10/22 shooter will be local but they can brag all they want.
 
for those that shoot ara that is fine. but beginners shouldn't be lumped into one big class with people who could outshoot them any day of the week. there needs to be rules to keep everything even across the board. not just putting off the shelf guns up against a $2600 custom match rifle. how is that fair? they are more or less putting the biginners in the bottum of the list from get go. i understand why beginners wouldn't want to compete in ara matches. they don't stand a chance period. most people like having classes so they know where they and thier rifle belong, and shoot against people who have the same set up and not against people who have the best of everything. the low rules could be the down fall of ara if they don't change. new blood will stop flowing and the old blood will dry up and blow away in the wind if they don't do something.
 
Classes

ARA has always had two classes. Unlimited and Juniors. I think everyone of our Juniors were treated fairly, while still having to shoot side by side with the adults. The Juniors were rewarded for their finish as compared to the other Juniors present, regardless of what type rifle the used.
 
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