wind shooting

???????

Joe Haller said:
Carp:

When I first read your lead in post, I figured you meant the affect of wind on match attendance. Now that I know for sure that is what you were asking: I got'a get into this.

Our club started shooting rimfire BR nine years ago. I'm an old centerfire shooter who had to quit that sh#t because I was going deaf. Anyway our club decided to go with the USBR target, and we rounded up some of our old Smallbore Prone shooters.

At the end or the second year, our club treasurer said to me: "Joe, that target is too tough for a beginner. Did ya notice they are not coming back for a second match. Why don't you run some matches at 25 yards."

I didn't like that idea at first, but we tried it the next year: The shooters started to come back, and our matches grew popular. What happened?

That USBR target can be downright humiliating at 50 yards when the wind blows, and it ALWAYS blows. Wind drift is not linear. It has a squared function, which means our rimfire bullets drift FOUR times as far at 50 yards as they do at 25.

I had to admit that shooting at 25 yards was a good idea for us, because the shooters started coming back for more. They would get their feet wet at 25 yards, and when they built up a little confidence, they would try 50 yards. They would most likely be humiliated, but they were coming back.

Shooting at 25 yards, we can't sanction our matches. Turns out our "Outlaw" matches are a good thing.

Last weekend we had 34 shooters at our August match UP here on the edge of the Canadian border. Down in Lower Michigan they had an ARA State Championship with 11 shooters, and Dick Wright's club on the other side of the Lower Peninsula had 8 shooters. On the same weekend down in Alabama they reported 15 shooters. There was a match in Texas with 13 shooters. Out in Oregon they had 5 shooters. I got a report from RBA a couple of days ago. They listed 4 matches over the weekend: 5 shooters, 4 shooters 5 shooters and 6 shooters.

NOW: Is there something wrong with our sport? Probably a BUNCH of things are wrong. What I am suggesting here is that maybe one of the things is the targets are too tough for new shooters at 50 yards. Don Matzder said in one of his posts: "Some areas are more remote than others and they will never have large attendance". Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan is pretty remote, don't ya think?

I know it is easier to run a match with 8 or 10 shooters. It takes a lot of work and a lot of volunteers to run a match with more than 30 shooters. Is it worth it? Would 25 yard matches attract more shooters at other clubs? Would the sanctioning bodies be flexable enough to make some changes? What other changes would help the sport grow?

As Carp said: "Participation is critical".

Mr. Frosty
Click to expand...

Hey Joe, when you shot centerfire BR did the shooters want to make it easier by shooting 50 yards? You said you gathered up a bunch of prone shooters to shoot br. For the record prone shooters are usually not br shooters and have no interest in it. I know I have no interest in prone shooting. Benchrest by definition is the ultimate quest for accuracy. I'm glad you had 34 shooters but most of us that shoot IR 50/50, ARA or RBA are not interested in making it easier so we get more shooters. If you make it easier it is not true BR, You will lose the shooter who is striving to be the best br shooter. What would that accomplish? You can make all the changes you want but when it comes down to it very few people are interested in br shooting.
 
Carp said:
wb9uze,
I understand your plight. We talked. 4 targets at the range you enjoy now. It's been a couple of matches now that they did that. Borden. Ammo has been outrageous for a few years. I think that the real cost is not that outrageous compared to previous. It's still to much. Compared to that motorcycle it is probably pennies.

Carp
Click to expand...

Well old buddy, I hate to tell you the money I've invested in BR equipment in the last 2 years would have bought me at least 2 1/2 of those motorcycles. Wife says I can only have one however so I got the biggest one in production. She simply doesn't understand the fundamentals of a motorcycle riders mind. I'll probably get the itch to shoot a few rounds once in awhile for the fun but for now I'm laying low. Besides, it's no fun shooting against you and Mark, and James, not to mention Terry and Jimbo, because you guys beat me all the time. If you were nicer to me I might shoot again sometime.
 
wb9uze,
Can I have Jim send you flowers? Would that be nice enough?

Carp
 
No, but a Dynojet Power Commander III with a Universal Serial Bus for my bike would work.
 
Carp,
Not to change the subject, are you going to make livonia saturday? The tournament starts at 3:00 p.m. Sincerely, d.w.b.
 
Doug,
Yes. Unless I have a death in the family or something just as important. Yes, I will be there.

Carp
 
Hello Mr. Pappas:

NBRSA was started in 1951, while I was in Korea. I didn't join NBRSA until 1955. At that time I was thinking of having a sleeved bench gun made. Changed my mind after I asked myself, "Who would shoot in a match with me?" Decide instead to work up a set of rules for centerfire Sporter and Vamint rifles. It went along pretty well, with a three county league and as many as 55 shooters in our tournaments. Then in 1978 three of us went to the SuperShoot. When we got home, we decided to run NBRSA sanctioned tournaments, "in the ultimate quest for accuracy". Built moving backers and had as many as 15 shooters at some of our sanctioned matches. Then it died. No more centerfire benchrest.

My wife and I started shooting smallbore in 1958. Loved the game. We had as many as 140 shooters in our indoor leagues and 75 in our outdoor prone tournaments. I shot in tournaments in Illinois and Indiana where there were 100 to 150 shooters. When I got into my 40's the prone game got to be more pain than fun. I quit smallbore at our club. Then it died. No more smallbore.

So now, I'm into rimfire benchrest. It's an old man's sport, right? I see match reports on the internet with from THREE to 18 shooters. The average seems to be less than 10. What the h#ll is happening?

"Benchrest by definition is the ultimate quest for accuracy". When the ultimate gets to mean winning against nine other shooters, someone should be rethinking the game. By that I mean getting some "feeder" classes going that will encourage shooters to move up, so we will have some new shooters lusting after that ultimate accuracy.

One more thought on the accuracy thing: In case you think us Yoopers are backward: In our club, we have by my count more than a dozen rifles capable of that ultimate accuracy. Dick Wright has been UP here four times with his Remington Calfee and he ain't won a match yet.

How did we get that dozen shooters "into" ultimate accuracy. We started them out on Rugers, CZs, 541, and even some Savages. It only took us 9 years.

Mr. Frosty :)

After thought:
I guess it never occurred to me that someone would want to shoot centerfire at 50 yards. Just like it never occurred to me to try 25 yards with rimfire. Someone have to pound that idea into my head.

One more thought:
If rimfire match participation ever gets down to three shooters on the line with a quest for ultimate accuracy, will it be time to say: "It died: No more rimfire benchrest?"
 
Hello Mr. Haller

Joe Haller said:
NBRSA was started in 1951, while I was in Korea. I didn't join NBRSA until 1955. At that time I was thinking of having a sleeved bench gun made. Changed my mind after I asked myself, "Who would shoot in a match with me?" Decide instead to work up a set of rules for centerfire Sporter and Vamint rifles. It went along pretty well, with a three county league and as many as 55 shooters in our tournaments. Then in 1978 three of us went to the SuperShoot. When we got home, we decided to run NBRSA sanctioned tournaments, "in the ultimate quest for accuracy". Built moving backers and had as many as 15 shooters at some of our sanctioned matches. Then it died. No more centerfire benchrest.

My wife and I started shooting smallbore in 1958. Loved the game. We had as many as 140 shooters in our indoor leagues and 75 in our outdoor prone tournaments. I shot in tournaments in Illinois and Indiana where there were 100 to 150 shooters. When I got into my 40's the prone game got to be more pain than fun. I quit smallbore at our club. Then it died. No more smallbore.

So now, I'm into rimfire benchrest. It's an old man's sport, right? I see match reports on the internet with from THREE to 18 shooters. The average seems to be less than 10. What the h#ll is happening?

"Benchrest by definition is the ultimate quest for accuracy". When the ultimate gets to mean winning against nine other shooters, someone should be rethinking the game. By that I mean getting some "feeder" classes going that will encourage shooters to move up, so we will have some new shooters lusting after that ultimate accuracy.

One more thought on the accuracy thing: In case you think us Yoopers are backward: In our club, we have by my count more than a dozen rifles capable of that ultimate accuracy. Dick Wright has been UP here four times with his Remington Calfee and he ain't won a match yet.

How did we get that dozen shooters "into" ultimate accuracy. We started them out on Rugers, CZs, 541, and even some Savages. It only took us 9 years.

Mr. Frosty :)

After thought:
I guess it never occurred to me that someone would want to shoot centerfire at 50 yards. Just like it never occurred to me to try 25 yards with rimfire. Someone have to pound that idea into my head.

One more thought:
If rimfire match participation ever gets down to three shooters on the line with a quest for ultimate accuracy, will it be time to say: "It died: No more rimfire benchrest?"
Click to expand...

I started shooting centerfire benchrest i968 after I returned from Viet Nam in 1967. I shot in local matches because thats what I could afford. I started a business in 1974 and did not have the time to devote to both. I started shooting rimfire benchrest in 1993 with my son who was 11 years old. We shot together for 8 years until he went to off to school. He was good at rimfire br but he has never shot in a match since he went off to school. He has other things that are more important to him. So do most other people, br is not important or interesting to them. I have nothing against feeder classes and I said nothing about Yoopers being bacward. Rimfire BR will stand or fall on its own merits not by changing the rules to make it easier. But for the record, just because Calfees name is on Mr. Wrights rifle doesn't guarantee a victory anywhere.
 
Thread blown off course, by the wind ?

It seems that this thread on shooting in the wind has been blown off course. But it is an interesting course. If I read these posts correctly it seems that some folks are only enjoying the sport if they are winning. Unfortunately that seems to be true in much of sports generally. A contest lets you share the experience with others. Shared experiences are rewarding. But the real reward is the progress one makes in the process. In talking to my very sports competitive 15 year old grandchildren I point out that if they were to play a team of 10 year olds, they would win every time, but what fun would that be. The satisfaction is in the "becoming" and for a sport to yield long term satisfaction there must always be room to improve. Whether we shoot indoors at 50 feet, outdoors at 50 yards, benchrest or off hand, we develop our skills and hopefully enjoy the process. I have never shot a 250. It may be some years before I do. I am really enjoying my participation, the company I am in and my progress, such as it is. I guess when I start shooting 250 on a regular basis, I will quest for more x count. But it will be the sense of accomplishment that will provide the satisfaction, not just a target with a hole centered in every bullseye. One last thing. Bragging rights give satisfaction in that we get the admiration of others, and that is a real part of the motivation of many to compete. Both satisfactions can be had in benchrest. The wind makes it more interesting. See, I got back to the beginning of the thread.
 
J Pappas said:
Hey Joe, when you shot centerfire BR did the shooters want to make it easier by shooting 50 yards? You said you gathered up a bunch of prone shooters to shoot br. For the record prone shooters are usually not br shooters and have no interest in it. I know I have no interest in prone shooting. Benchrest by definition is the ultimate quest for accuracy. I'm glad you had 34 shooters but most of us that shoot IR 50/50, ARA or RBA are not interested in making it easier so we get more shooters. If you make it easier it is not true BR, You will lose the shooter who is striving to be the best br shooter. What would that accomplish? You can make all the changes you want but when it comes down to it very few people are interested in br shooting.
Click to expand...
James:

I'm sure you are familar with the targets that Joe uses. I got several of the targets from Joe a few years back and shot them. Those targets at 25 yards are just as difficult, if not more difficult, than the ARA, IR50/50 and RBA Targets at 50 yards. That 10 ring is AWFUL small.

You guys think you have it bad. I shoot my local range (40 miles) and the next closest range is Cordele, Ga, (340 miles) or Pensacola (almost 400 miles).
A few years ago, my wife and I traveled to the Georgia and Alabama matches, about twice a month, but with today's gas and ammo prices, that is out of the question, as we are both retired.. I just wish that more of the clubs down here would shoot ARA. If I could go and shoot 8 or 10 targets on a week-end, or a 6 target tournament, I might consider a little more traveling, but we don't have Sporter Class rifles and to travel that distance for two targets per match is not cost efficent.

Dave Smith
 
big target or little target.
wind or no wind.
down town or the country.
25 yards, 50 yards or 50 miles.
sorry kids I enjoyed your inheritance!
1 more than me shows up.......Let shoot some!

Sam
 
Back to the wind . . .

Our biggest problem when we started rimfire BR was, after spending a lot of time and energy getting a new shooter to a match, we never saw him again, after he shot that 50 yard USBR target.

When we set up the 25 yard match I felt we had a new idea that worked. With 4 times less wind drift, reading the flags was not as important. Besides those new guys would not look at the flags anyway. Getting them to understand wind drift, that squared function, and learning how to read the flags, would take several sessions on the range, and we had them coming back for those sessions.

Joe :)

Windagetable.jpg
 
David Valdina,
You have it right on! It doesn't matter where you are in the standings or how much you win or how much you win by. It's about keeping YOUR LOCAL CLUBS ALIVE BY BEING THERE. I'm sorry if I sound like your school teacher calling "roll call" but the symptoms are there and it needs to be addressed.
Joe Haller,
I know you have the outlaw benchrest stuff but being an outlaw of participation in sanctioned matches is equal to being anti-freaking shooting. I know you have been around but you have definately been anti-ARA all year long.I would suggest that you attend the Cadillac Tournament in September to understand why sanctioned shooters want to shoot sanctioned matches. They are not weighted to equipment or ability......you just shoot and NO OTHER QUESTIONS. Bring what you have and shoot. That's it.
The rest of you viewers,
Do you feel guilty for not showing up? You should be!

Carp
 
More from da U.P.

Ya know Carp:

I'm not anti ARA. I'm just anti stuff that don't work. NRA sanctioned Smallbore Matches worked for out club back in the 1950's & 60s. We had as many as 140 shooters in our local matches. Outlaw centerfire worked for us in the 1970's with more than 50 local shooters. Sanctioned NBRSA killed our Centerfire program in the 1990s.

Back about the time NBRSA had it's personality problems and IBS split off, I saw a bad future. I wrote NRA at that time asking if they would consider sanctioning benchrest competition. The answer was: "NRA does to interfere with or compete against the smaller shooting organizations".

When rimfire BR came along in the 1990's, seems like new organizations reproduced like rabbits. These new shooters don't remember when local club matches drew BIG crowds. Are they really happy competing with a number of shooters they can count on their fingers. I am not. but I'll try to get to one of the ARA matches down in Cadillac next year. Just might be able to bring a dozen local Yoopers with me.

Joe :)
 
Joe Haller,
As you can read from any of my posts on this thread that I started....I never, I mean never...mentioned new shooters. Period. I am asking experienced shooters about their habits on wind shooting. Whether they go...go kicking and screaming....or just hide under a rock on match day with a windy environment. You only heard the state of Michigan. Joe, I beg you...go to Cadillac's ARA club tournament Sept. 20! I call you out on this one. If you can't drive there then find a fellow shooter to take you. Ask that fellow shooter to shoot in that tournament too. Otherwise let progress take place without the BS about unsanctioned matches. That was never, never my point.

p.s. I will look for your name at Cadillac's tournament match report.

Carp
 
Joe, the reason you get lots of shooters at your matches is because everyone has a chance. When you organize and make rules, people work at competeing and get better, lots better. Soon there are a few great shooters that win pretty regularly and the guys that are not winning, lose interest. Sad, but a fact of life that our ego's won't let us preform at our best, lose and be happy with how we did. I started shooting with Mike Eshelman, Darrel Lane, Darrel Barnes, Richard Gorham, Roger Brock, Joe Beshe and others that beat the above mentioned on occation so I learned to lose early. A little humble pie never hurt anyone. I wish those that don't shoot registered matches would try it and learn to shoot better because of it. I still think the price of gas, real or psychological, is the cause of low participation this year.
 
Well Don.......

DonMatzeder said:
Joe, the reason you get lots of shooters at your matches is because everyone has a chance. When you organize and make rules, people work at competeing and get better, lots better. Soon there are a few great shooters that win pretty regularly and the guys that are not winning, lose interest. Sad, but a fact of life that our ego's won't let us preform at our best, lose and be happy with how we did. I started shooting with Mike Eshelman, Darrel Lane, Darrel Barnes, Richard Gorham, Roger Brock, Joe Beshe and others that beat the above mentioned on occation so I learned to lose early. A little humble pie never hurt anyone. I wish those that don't shoot registered matches would try it and learn to shoot better because of it. I still think the price of gas, real or psychological, is the cause of low participation this year.
Click to expand...

Hey Don, answer the question that Carp asked. Do any of these guys you mention shoot in the wind?
 
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