Wind and Hot Air…

jGEE said:
This might be a bit vague for an answer but on average running a card how many shots will be a 'hold over? Ever shot, -50%, a few. I know it depends on the wind, but you top shooters just in general -how often do you hold over?

I just now think i am starting to get a feel for the wind with 1 flag. Going back to what Mr. Wilbur just said -I'm getting a feel for where my rifle should shoot.

In the past i have always shot at the dot, maybe the last few weeks or so i'm testing hold over and i think i can see positive results. I'm going to guess you experienced shooters very seldom shoot dead at the dot.

I guess what i'm trying to establish is sorta a rule for the new shooter on how often you should be expecting to holding over. I now know shooting at the dot ever shot is wrong. Maybe if their could be a number say to a new guy, you should expect to hold over at least "X" percent of the time.

I think some kind of number would help a new guy understand how much the wind infulences the shot. Whew this is sorta rambling but i have never read an answer to this question. thanks joe:)
Click to expand...


I don't have a great wealth of experience but, when wind falls off to zero, shoot for the dot. Otherwise, with ANY wind, you are making some allowance/correction. Where I live, wind is 90+ percent of the time at a level you need to allow for.
I have heard some folk zero their scope for the prevailing wind....I can't imagine myself ever doing that.

Regis
 
i'm really just starting as well. from the three visit's i've made to the range with 2 great shooters i have found i very seldom hold on the x. the wind is never still at my home range so it is helping me out alot. i now have 5 flags. i have been just using three till i get a better handle on the wind. i'm sure i'll never get a good handle on it.

i saw the flags pointing in three different directions at my range the first day i was shooting with the gentlemen i shoot with!! talk about throwing a new guy a loop!! i'm learning by doing and by listening to the other guys. listening is good. asking them stuff helps, but for me there has been nothing better than just getting out there and doing it with them. i have found that they are willing to help and talk to me. i hope to get to shoot with them for years to come. i'm also hoping to get into my first match next month at buckcreek. it all depends on how work goes for me. big g is tired of hearing me say i'm ganna try to come down, but my job dictates to me what i can and can't do.
 
Hi Joe, your right, if you get to the range on a windy day and wring your hands and complain about how bad the conditions are you are beat before you start. A positive "can do" attitude is a must.

Wilbur is right, you have to have a gun that shoots. Trying to conquer the wind with a gun that shoots let's say half inch groups, will be tough to say the least. Quite often when I say "holding off" I am referring to what side of the scopes dot is within the ten ring.

Ya know jGEE that's a really good question and something I never thought about. When you say "hold over" I assume you mean "hold off". When I go to a match I like my gun to be sighted dead-nuts-on in a calm condition. If the conditions are moderate or better (less wind) I never touch the scope adjustments, just hold off. So I would have to guess at this but I would say I would be holding off around 90% of the time. Remember, we are talking subtlety's here. "Nuanceing" the hold-off. Rarely, if ever, letting the dot leave the outboard side of the ten ring. If conditions get stronger I will take a few clicks to compensate. Just a reminder, I shoot IR50/50.

So much of this stuff is hard to explain. Us "old-timers" go to a match and just "do it" without a lot of conscience thought about what or how we do it.

Al

PS, Regis, I no longer subscribe to PS so I haven't seen that wind shooting article but is sounds like a good one.
 
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Is it the Wind or My Equipment?
Define Equipment: - everything you take to your bench when shooting.
A great way to learn to shoot the wind and test your equipment at the same time is play “Chase”.
Define Chase: – two shooters shooting at the same target at the same time.
Start out by shooting one target holding on the X for every shot. After a while you will see a pattern emerging. An example would be a steady 09:00 wind and Shooter “A” has a 9 at 4:00 and “B” an 8 at 3:00. Neither shooter saw much wind! The key word is “Saw” that much wind. The 4:00 vs 3:00 is not that important for now it’s the wind velocity that they need to recognize.
The next example is A has an 9 at 2:00 and B has an 8 at 4:00 with the same relative wind. Or A has a 10 at 9:00 and B has an 8 at 4:00. This could be an Equipment problem and not the wind. But who’s equipment you ask – A with a 10 or B who barely made a 9?? Now the key word is “relative wind”. Both POI should be to the right so A who shot to the left might have an equipment issue.
Shoot a whole target while watching your flags and both A & B will learn a lot about the wind.
Now for your next target designate one shooter to “Call the Shot’ Based on what he learned from the first target. I.E. he sees a wind that looked like the above examples so he might say I am holding at 10:00 just touching the 9 ring. Both use the same hold and shoot. One is a ‘pinwheel and one is a solid 10 at 3:00! If this trend holds for most of the target then both shooters have learned something.
The more you play Chase under varying conditions the more you will learn about the wind and maybe more important you will learn your equipment.
After awhile (Days - Weeks – Months) you should start to see an improvement in your shooting. Through trial and error you fix some of your equipment problems along with learning to shoot the wind.

What have I learned by playing Chase? Well one thing is that after I did everything I could to fix my equipment problems I still have what is call a 248 rifle and some people have a 250 rifle. This becomes apparent when I have to hold as much as an extra ring into the wind to get a pinwheel when chasing a 250 rifle. However with this knowledge I can give the 250 rifles a run for the money because I understand My Equipment.
 
I think the 90-95% of the time a hold off to some degree is required. Sometimes the hold off is subtle, from 5 o'clock on the ten ring to say, 9 o'clock on the ten ring. I am from the sight in every day school. I try to sight in on the day's prevailing condition and hold on the ten ring. A lot of good shooters have helped me over the years, but a Harry Deneen quote has stuck. "How do you expect to hit the ten ring unless you aim at it?" That may not be exactly what he said, that's just how I remember it. However, switches and velocity changes often require a greater hold off. I really hate to hold farther than the nine ring. Seems when holding farther, I invariably hit where I'm aiming at least once on a card. Those 8's hurt.

Ken
 
Thanks for that reminder Doug, playing "Chase" will help a lot in learning the wind.

A little PS on my post #23. Penny and I just came in from our first practice session of the season. It's been about six months since we shot, it's been a long winter. I Guess I would have to say I click in a condition more than I inferred in that post. We had a nice moderate and predictable condition. I could have shot it by holding of into the nine ring but 2-3 clicks and I was right on for that breeze. Then all I had to do was have patience. :D

Al
 
i've been playing chase with the guys i'm shooting with. it truely does help alot. i'm on my way out the door to the range right now myself. gosh i love this alot!!!
 
Al

Its good to try to learn together.. There are a few things that i have learned from many rounds down range.. One thing is scopes have clicks for a reason.. Two, always listen to the weather and find out where the wind is going to be comming from that day.. Take a compass with you if need be.. Three ,, the range is diffrent every day.. The dominate and best condition might not be worth crap that day..when strange things happen stay away from that condition.. Most wind shooting is common sence.. Keep it simple.. We out think ourselves most of the time... Which flag is more important? It depends on the range and wind location on that day.. Dont get hung up with which flag iam going to watch today.. You will lose before you start. I always said most matches are won on the sighters the first five minutes of a match.. On tough days there may only be one good condition to shoot with a very small ten or twelve inch window.. These are a few things that have worked for me but who knows if they are right.. There are a few more very important tricks that maybe we can discuss later.. Good shooting... Harry..:):):)
 
hell let's talk about those other important things here and now!!! there's alot of guys trying to learn and would love to here about things we haven't had to deal with yet!!! don't hold back. speak!! we are listening!!!!
 
Doping the Wind

I've just hit my 1st year milestone, took up the sport of benchrest rimfire in 4/08. So with that said I don't have the years of experience to share but this is where I'm at with reading the wind. My current setup is 5 flags and one wind indicator. I do believe that the flags closes to the bench are very important due to basic geometry. If the flight of the bullet is off in the first 10 yards it's only going to be further off at 50 yrds. But with that said the key is watching which flags are the busiest. A recent example the first two flags nearest the bench were not showing a lot of activity, but the wind movement increased towards the target so I was watching the flags down range more than the closer ones. The next item is I watch my neighbor flags as much as I watch mine. I'm looking for a switch before it hits me. This year I've purchased extra flags to setup on the outside of my lane if I'm on the end. I've already shot in a match were this was the case and I do believe that it helped me catch switches before they got to me. Last I hold until all the flags are generally pointing in the same direction. In a lot of cases this is for a mere split second so you have to be fast. Next don't be rushed. e.g. This year on one target I had two bulls shot at the 10 minute mark, but I wasn't panicking. Then I had about a 5 minute frame of getting my condition and ran it for a decent target.

Les
 
Al

I THOUGHT YOU WERE MAKING FUN OF US REDNECKS WITH THAT TITLE.. SHOOTERS DO KNOW HOW TO SHOOT HOT AIR. :p:p LES. YOU DO HAVE A PRETTY GOOD APROACH BUT WATCHING THE FLAGS THAT ARE MOVING THE MOST IS USALLY NOT A GOOD IDEA. THE ONES THAT ARE LAZY WILL CAUSE THE TROUBLE... I USE SIX FLAGS BUT I THINK MORE ARE BETTER FOR BETTER WIND SHOOTING... THE LESS DISTANCE BETWEEN EACH FLAG WILL BE BETTER MOST OF THE TIME.. ITS ONLY COMMON SENCE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SE WHATS GOING ON MORE WITH MORE FLAGS.. THIS MIGHT CONFUSE SOME LESS EXPERIENCED SHOOTERS SO LESS WILL PROABLY BE BETTER UNTILL YOU GET A FEELING FOR SHOOTING IN HARD WIND.. HOPE THIS HELPS SOME.. HARRY.:):):)
 
Hi Les, You make some good points. I used to set a flag or two off to the side when I drew an end bench. The problem is as I get older memory fades...I forget the damn things are there!

Speaking of flags, I set them more or less evenly spaced and slightly to the left. That way I can pick them up with my left eye. I also stagger them left to right and up and down, whatever is needed so I can see them all. A flag isn't worth much if you can't see it.

Hi Harry, No, I wasn't making fun of you rednecks, New England has a few...I count myself among them. :D

Al :)
 
"The Wind is Not Your Friend"

It’s a Shame that in a quality thread on wind there are still numerous posts that support the Myth that the wind closest to the bench has the most effect on POI.
Let me make an analogy to somewhat argue the opposite is true.

Example 1..
Lets jump in an airplane in steady flight that enters a 50 mph 90 deg crosswind and does not make any correction.
After 1 hour the wind stops and he is 50 miles off course and he does nothing.
After 2 hours he will still be only 50 miles off course.

Example 2.
Same as example 1 except the50 mph wind does 180 deg switch after 1 hour.
After 2 hours he will be back on course.

Example 3.
Same as example 2 except he slows up for the 2nd hour.
Guess what since he is in the 2nd wind longer because he slowed up after 1 hours he while have flown through his course and now be off course on the opposite side after 2 hours.

What does this tell me – that since the bullet is decelerating it is in the wind longer for the last 25 yards and that could have a greater effect on POI.

Now some of the Ballistic Guru’s will pull out their books, charts and graphs and try to shoot holes in my examples but I will guarantee you they will never prove that the wind closest to the bench is SIGNIFICANTLY more important than the same wind at any other point of a 22RF's flight.

One last thought – take a look at Harry’s or DJ’s or some of the other top shooters wind flag set up – they cover the whole range – then ask them which is most important and they will tell you they all are.

Just A Dumb Pilot:D

When you have nothing else to do you might go to "The Wind is Not Your Friend" for a few more Myths. http://www.thewindisnotyourfriend.com/read/myths.html

.
 
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"It’s a Shame that in a quality thread on wind there are still numerous posts that support the Myth that the wind closest to the bench has the most effect on POI."

I agree with what your saying Doug and probably just don't word it exactly right. All the flags are important, but depending on the conditions you may need to be more attentive to some more than others. e.g. The first two flags aren't nearly as busy as the last three, they're moving of course but not to the degree the last three are. So you've got an eye on them but you've really got an eye on the last three for they are the ones you have to catch for the condition your shooting. Another e.g. from a recent match. I let myself get lazy, call it what you want, but the wind was switching between 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock and breezy. I was staying consistent with the conditions but you'd get that split second to fire and a couple of times either not being attentive enough or just not fast enough you'd get one flag do a switch from left to right or vice versus and you'd pay for it although the other 4 didn't switch.

I will say this though for the new shooters like myself. The wind is just as important as all the other factors, good equipment and ammo.. To Doug's point with the great shooters watching the whole condition, until you can play the wind you won't be winning to many matches.

Les
 
Mr. harrydeneen i'm new and learning. The guys here have helped me a "bunch".
In your first comment in this thread you mentioned:
One thing is scopes have clicks for a reason..
Click to expand...
When your running a card -are there times you reach and dial in a click, a couple of clicks?

How much "hold off" is exceptable to you -maybe a 1/2 bullet width, full bullet width? thanks guys joe:)
 
Hi All,

Just to clarify one point. Not debating theory but talking real world stuff... I believe that ALL flags are important. If you have a setup of five flags and any one of them is in reversal and you miss seeing this you have just dropped an X or worse.

One other clarification, When most of us talk "hold-off" we are referring to a tiny bit of hold-off in many cases. My so called hold-off may be what side within the ten ring I put the dot. It might be better called "nuanceing" the dot?

I'd like to thank again every one who has contributed to this thread, I hope we all learned something, I know I did. Keep those cards and letters coming. :D

Al :)
 
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Doug
That is only true if you maintain the same speed !!

In rimfire the most deflection is when the bullet is slowing down the most, and that is right out of the muzzle.
Fred K
 
OK add this one, and don't have enough experience to relate to it, other than one time and really a brief period and it did exactly what I was told it would do. Shooting in a very light consistent breeze and most on the line is knocking the center of the bull out. Then the wind totally stops, nothing, the flags aren't moving at all not even the smallest of flutter, zero. What would one expect? I've been told by a couple of very good shooters hold and don't fall for it wait for some movement for it will start again. Any thoughts on this?
 
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