Or you could sell it to me for $100 and make a $30 profit.
Probably closer to $400 by now, but my offer still stands.Michael
Why I Shoot the 30-30 in Benchrest
- Thread starter mturner
- Start date
Or you could sell it to me for $100 and make a $30 profit.
Probably closer to $400 by now, but my offer still stands.Michael
Mike Bryant
Active member
Michael, the work you've done with the .30-30 is reminscent of how benchrest started out with people experimenting and trying to find something that will work well. It seems now days, benchrest has become just a shooting competition where people are basically shooting the same thing. Same caliber, same barrels, same stock, same actions, etc. It seems like there are very few innovators anymore. My hat is off to you for doing what you did with the .30-30 and proving that it can be made to work. I have lots of reamer, but no .30-30. Never had anyone ask for one. I do have a 6 American reamer though. When I gave it a try when that brass was available, I turned the rim down to fit in a PPC bolt face. Never did do much with it as the PPC brass shortage ended and went back to the PPC. Thank goodness that the kind of guys who will turn powder measures, turn tuners or whatever they'll do to people who happen to be shooting well at a match are few and far between. Jerry Hensler is another one of the innovators and it's unfortunate that he quit shooting centerfire benchrest. There are inside the box thinkers and outside the box thinkers. It's a good thing that there are a few benchrest shooters around who do think outside the box.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Pete Wass
Well-known member
On Cartridge Cases:
I shot HBR in IBS Score for a very long time. While I don't own any records and did not make it to the Hall of Fame, I did fairly well in that I have 97 Agg patches. I tried everything there was available for brass. I have small primer American cases, still, I believe, I shot a 30 HC, a full 308, a 30-44 , a 30-284 short and 30 BR's. I never saw any relevance with brass in the accuracy equation. All my testing pointed to load and seating depth with the right bullet-powder combination for the barrel one is tuning.
I have always believed and still do that the brass is simply a vehicle to hold the things that make accuracy and as long as it has a tight primer pocket and is somewhat straight to begin with one is ok. A piece of brass simply conforms to the chamber, doesn't it? I have also found it interesting that some great groups have been shot while fire forming brass. That alone should tell it's own story. I ended up with 500 prepped 30 BR brass that gets "reconditioned = cleaned thoroughly inside and out and annealed after every 7 or so firings". A few, but very few, have been culled as I go. Mostly it was from my bumping the shoulders too hard before I found out about the o ring under die cap. All of it will deliver. When I go to a match, I load 100 per the specks I have developed for each match I intend to shoot; why I thought I needed 500 pieces.
Bullets, Powder, Load, Seating Depth and an OAL Bench mark to work from = accuracy, repeatable accuracy. Throwing stuff together works sometimes but can go away quickly too.
Now it's lot number and barrels. Simpler but not really.
Pete
I shot HBR in IBS Score for a very long time. While I don't own any records and did not make it to the Hall of Fame, I did fairly well in that I have 97 Agg patches. I tried everything there was available for brass. I have small primer American cases, still, I believe, I shot a 30 HC, a full 308, a 30-44 , a 30-284 short and 30 BR's. I never saw any relevance with brass in the accuracy equation. All my testing pointed to load and seating depth with the right bullet-powder combination for the barrel one is tuning.
I have always believed and still do that the brass is simply a vehicle to hold the things that make accuracy and as long as it has a tight primer pocket and is somewhat straight to begin with one is ok. A piece of brass simply conforms to the chamber, doesn't it? I have also found it interesting that some great groups have been shot while fire forming brass. That alone should tell it's own story. I ended up with 500 prepped 30 BR brass that gets "reconditioned = cleaned thoroughly inside and out and annealed after every 7 or so firings". A few, but very few, have been culled as I go. Mostly it was from my bumping the shoulders too hard before I found out about the o ring under die cap. All of it will deliver. When I go to a match, I load 100 per the specks I have developed for each match I intend to shoot; why I thought I needed 500 pieces.
Bullets, Powder, Load, Seating Depth and an OAL Bench mark to work from = accuracy, repeatable accuracy. Throwing stuff together works sometimes but can go away quickly too.
Now it's lot number and barrels. Simpler but not really.
Pete
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Annealing
Pete,
I will be playing with induction annealing of case necks soon. Instead of playing with the AMP system, I will build one and play with different induction coils, different current levels, and various durations. I can determine my own annealing formulas from these things. I realize that AMP has a patent on their design, but it is not infringing on a patent to build your own. They didn't actually invent induction annealing. I have not looked at their patent, but it is probably a design patent.
Michael
Pete,
I will be playing with induction annealing of case necks soon. Instead of playing with the AMP system, I will build one and play with different induction coils, different current levels, and various durations. I can determine my own annealing formulas from these things. I realize that AMP has a patent on their design, but it is not infringing on a patent to build your own. They didn't actually invent induction annealing. I have not looked at their patent, but it is probably a design patent.
Michael
Pictures
Here are the pictures that I said I would post. The rifle has not changed since it was built, other than having several barrels for it. I have one barrel in 22, two barrels in 6mm, and maybe four in 30. Compared to todays standards, I'm probably giving a little up with this stock. At the 30 caliber recoil level, I'm certain that one of the trick carbon fiber stocks would benefit this rifle even more than the 6PPC shooters have realized. I would love to hear some comments on Scoville style stocks on 30 caliber rifles. Since I've had this stock for 16 years, I am a little attached to it, but at the same time, I dream of having a carbon fiber stock. Notice my old Leupold 36X that I have posi-locked, and totally reworked the internals. I have a post from some time ago showing these modifications. I realize the scope is also somewhat dated, but it is solid as a rock.
Michael
Here are the pictures that I said I would post. The rifle has not changed since it was built, other than having several barrels for it. I have one barrel in 22, two barrels in 6mm, and maybe four in 30. Compared to todays standards, I'm probably giving a little up with this stock. At the 30 caliber recoil level, I'm certain that one of the trick carbon fiber stocks would benefit this rifle even more than the 6PPC shooters have realized. I would love to hear some comments on Scoville style stocks on 30 caliber rifles. Since I've had this stock for 16 years, I am a little attached to it, but at the same time, I dream of having a carbon fiber stock. Notice my old Leupold 36X that I have posi-locked, and totally reworked the internals. I have a post from some time ago showing these modifications. I realize the scope is also somewhat dated, but it is solid as a rock.
Michael
Lee Martin
Active member
Beautifully done rifle Michael. As we discussed by phone, my dad is going to try the .30-30 in an action we built years ago (but have yet to barrel). And we'll grind our reamer to match the spec sheet you sent. Should be an interesting project.
Thanks for taking the time to share this with us.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
Thanks for taking the time to share this with us.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
S
swd
Guest
Michael, this has to one of the most refreshing and enjoyable threads I've read in a long time. Heck I even read it all twice. It's great to see something that's out of the box. The true spirit of benchrest. Your actions are a work or art! Thank's for the great read and inspiration!
M
mks
Guest
Michael,
I have a Scoville stock on a 30BR. It is much better behaved in the bags than my first 30BR, which had one of the original McMillan stocks. That gun would rock and roll in the bags so much that fellow shooters would remark about it! Still, it shot well until the barrel gave up. That stock was tunable to near perfect compensation at 100 and 200 yards with two different front bag locations. The Scoville stock has too little compensation at both yardages, and it can't be tuned in with the front bag. I need to move some weight around to try to get more compensation, but there aren't many easy options. One hesitates to cut into that beautiful carbon fiber. As much as I like the Scoville stock, my homemade walnut stock is even better behaved. It is low-slung and has no compensation at all, i.e., the center of mass of the rifle is right on the boreline. If I ever find time, I will run more tests with shifted weights.
Keith
New Plans
I'm strongly considering making a carbon fiber stock for this rifle. I just can't see myself waiting 2 plus years, and sending my action away to have someone else do this. My idea would be to design the stock with enough internal integrity that the outer carbon fiber skin would be more about cosmetics, although it would further stiffen the stock. From what I've studied, the outer layer of carbon fiber in one layer thick. I see no need for it to be thicker at this point. Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that if the stock is similar in design to Terry Leonard's, then the exterior carbon fiber is "icing on the cake". Anyone having any ideas on stock design, please feel free to help. This is very new to me.
My LV action that is pictured has an overall length of 7.5", and a diameter of 1.35". I spent 80 hours making this action. Much of that time was design, CNC programming, and fixtures. I have always said that I should have made a 100 of these, as we had a manufacturing license at that time. After my father passed away, I never tried to renew the manufacturing license in my name.
Tonight, I took my original LV action design and modified it for a 1.45" diameter by 8.2" long HV action. Since the design is finalized, except for maybe a right ejection port, and I have many CNC programs that can still be used, I'm strongly considering a new 17-4 stainless HV action. I would use the same modular bolt design as seen in the LV pictures, but I would replace the titanium bolt body with stainless, since I'm not looking to reduce weight. I would also build a carbon fiber stock for this rifle.
Remember all ideas are welcome in stock and action design. I'm also seeking ideas from any and all 30BR shooters concerning the best stock designs for the added recoil.
Michael
I'm strongly considering making a carbon fiber stock for this rifle. I just can't see myself waiting 2 plus years, and sending my action away to have someone else do this. My idea would be to design the stock with enough internal integrity that the outer carbon fiber skin would be more about cosmetics, although it would further stiffen the stock. From what I've studied, the outer layer of carbon fiber in one layer thick. I see no need for it to be thicker at this point. Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that if the stock is similar in design to Terry Leonard's, then the exterior carbon fiber is "icing on the cake". Anyone having any ideas on stock design, please feel free to help. This is very new to me.
My LV action that is pictured has an overall length of 7.5", and a diameter of 1.35". I spent 80 hours making this action. Much of that time was design, CNC programming, and fixtures. I have always said that I should have made a 100 of these, as we had a manufacturing license at that time. After my father passed away, I never tried to renew the manufacturing license in my name.
Tonight, I took my original LV action design and modified it for a 1.45" diameter by 8.2" long HV action. Since the design is finalized, except for maybe a right ejection port, and I have many CNC programs that can still be used, I'm strongly considering a new 17-4 stainless HV action. I would use the same modular bolt design as seen in the LV pictures, but I would replace the titanium bolt body with stainless, since I'm not looking to reduce weight. I would also build a carbon fiber stock for this rifle.
Remember all ideas are welcome in stock and action design. I'm also seeking ideas from any and all 30BR shooters concerning the best stock designs for the added recoil.
Michael
M
mks
Guest
Time
When I built that action, I was in a bad marriage. Escaping to the shop to work long hours in the evening felt very refreshing. I would work my normal 40 hours a week job, and only had the nights to get the action done, and the rest of the rifle built after the normal 8 hour day was over. I would go home to eat, spend time with the kids and get them to bed around 9:00. Then back to the shop for another 8 hours each day. I continued these 16 hour days for two weeks straight. That was over 16 years ago. I don't know if it was the 16 years younger that gave me so much energy, escaping from the wife, or both, but somehow I managed to put in 80 hours on the action, and another 20 to build custom scope rings and bases, inlet the stock blank, glue-in and finish the rifle. The Mcmillan stock had zero inletting for the action or barrel. One night, I actually worked until the kids were up and getting ready for school. While this job took some really long hours, it was one of the most rewarding projects I have ever taken on in my life.
Michael
When I built that action, I was in a bad marriage. Escaping to the shop to work long hours in the evening felt very refreshing. I would work my normal 40 hours a week job, and only had the nights to get the action done, and the rest of the rifle built after the normal 8 hour day was over. I would go home to eat, spend time with the kids and get them to bed around 9:00. Then back to the shop for another 8 hours each day. I continued these 16 hour days for two weeks straight. That was over 16 years ago. I don't know if it was the 16 years younger that gave me so much energy, escaping from the wife, or both, but somehow I managed to put in 80 hours on the action, and another 20 to build custom scope rings and bases, inlet the stock blank, glue-in and finish the rifle. The Mcmillan stock had zero inletting for the action or barrel. One night, I actually worked until the kids were up and getting ready for school. While this job took some really long hours, it was one of the most rewarding projects I have ever taken on in my life.
Michael
I noticed that the action pictures show action bolts. The pictures of the completed rifle didn't include pictures of the bottom. My question is this gun bolted together or is it glued in? If bolted together did you use pillars? The work on the action is beautiful !!!!! I agree with the other posters this has been a very refreshing thread, thank you!
Another Photo
I had a rare opportunity to take a picture of the cocking cam and bolt shroud disassembled. This is where you can see in detail how the aluminum bolt handle is attached. It makes a full ring where it attaches to the back of the bolt body, and has two keys 180 degrees apart that lock it from rotation on the bolt body. The threaded cocking cam and cocking piece is made from D2 tool steel for a very hard and slick surface that results in super low cocking effort, even with a stock Remington firing pin spring. The cocking cam is like a cap screw that threads into the back of the titanium bolt body. You can see the small 1/16" diameter index mark directly in front of the bottom of the cocking surface. The cocking piece is threaded into the back of the bolt body with about 75 ft. lbs. of torque. This is done after the S7 locking lugs are torqued to around 100 ft. lbs. I made a locking lug socket for the torque wrench, and for the cocking cam, I made what looks like a miniature barrel vise with internal threads. After 16 years of wear and tear, it needs to be polished again to make it look like it did in the original action photos, but still, it's held up real well. On the next one, I'm tempted to thread the inside of the cocking cam, so that the bolt shroud can have the typical male thread for easy disassembly. I have not had the cocking piece out of this since the day it was made. The only negative is that you cannot easily remove the firing pin at the range.
Michael
I had a rare opportunity to take a picture of the cocking cam and bolt shroud disassembled. This is where you can see in detail how the aluminum bolt handle is attached. It makes a full ring where it attaches to the back of the bolt body, and has two keys 180 degrees apart that lock it from rotation on the bolt body. The threaded cocking cam and cocking piece is made from D2 tool steel for a very hard and slick surface that results in super low cocking effort, even with a stock Remington firing pin spring. The cocking cam is like a cap screw that threads into the back of the titanium bolt body. You can see the small 1/16" diameter index mark directly in front of the bottom of the cocking surface. The cocking piece is threaded into the back of the bolt body with about 75 ft. lbs. of torque. This is done after the S7 locking lugs are torqued to around 100 ft. lbs. I made a locking lug socket for the torque wrench, and for the cocking cam, I made what looks like a miniature barrel vise with internal threads. After 16 years of wear and tear, it needs to be polished again to make it look like it did in the original action photos, but still, it's held up real well. On the next one, I'm tempted to thread the inside of the cocking cam, so that the bolt shroud can have the typical male thread for easy disassembly. I have not had the cocking piece out of this since the day it was made. The only negative is that you cannot easily remove the firing pin at the range.
Michael
Bill Leeper
New member
The reason for working with the 30/30, or any other old cartridge, should be immediately obvious: because you can and because it's fun. I built my own 30/30 on a modified Ruger 77 (initially built a 30/40 Krag but I wanted to mess with the 30/30). My303 British "F" class rifle is on a modified P14 while the 30/40 prone rifle is on a PGW (Remington clone). These rifles serve no real purpose except to add some fun to my shooting. I like shooting the 30/40 alongside the 308's and 223's.
One will often hear how brass for these older cartridges is thin and weak and can't be used for high pressure loads. This is, of course, pure BS. When 30/30 brass was re-formed to 219 Wasp, it didn't suddenly get stronger. The truth is, all of the rimmed cartridges seem to be very strong and will withstand high pressures even better than many modern rimless cartridges. I can use loads in both the 30/40 and 303 which will blow the primer right out of a 308.
By the way, I agree with Jackie re. the BR brass thing. If formed BR brass had been available, the cartridge would have been much more widely accepted. Forming BR brass out of what was essentially 308 brass, was a tedious business. I provided brass for the first 6 BR's I built in 1979 and I can't say that I enjoyed doing it.
Regards, Bill
One will often hear how brass for these older cartridges is thin and weak and can't be used for high pressure loads. This is, of course, pure BS. When 30/30 brass was re-formed to 219 Wasp, it didn't suddenly get stronger. The truth is, all of the rimmed cartridges seem to be very strong and will withstand high pressures even better than many modern rimless cartridges. I can use loads in both the 30/40 and 303 which will blow the primer right out of a 308.
By the way, I agree with Jackie re. the BR brass thing. If formed BR brass had been available, the cartridge would have been much more widely accepted. Forming BR brass out of what was essentially 308 brass, was a tedious business. I provided brass for the first 6 BR's I built in 1979 and I can't say that I enjoyed doing it.
Regards, Bill
C
chuck williams
Guest
I have shot both of these rifles......
I bought a bunch of powder from michael about 15yrs ago and we met at a range in lubbock texas. I was able to shoot both of the rifles at that time and was simply AMAZED when they put 125 speers, noslers, or sierras through virtually the same hole. The wind was absolutely screaming and we were still consistently shooting in the 1's and LOW 2's. When it came time to build myself a new bench rifle i also wanted to be different and went with a 30x44. Not near as cool as the 30-30, but i already had a good .308 reamer with .050 freebore and a fitted neck. it too would shoot "cheap" bullets extremely well. Glad you are getting back into shooting michael!!!
I bought a bunch of powder from michael about 15yrs ago and we met at a range in lubbock texas. I was able to shoot both of the rifles at that time and was simply AMAZED when they put 125 speers, noslers, or sierras through virtually the same hole. The wind was absolutely screaming and we were still consistently shooting in the 1's and LOW 2's. When it came time to build myself a new bench rifle i also wanted to be different and went with a 30x44. Not near as cool as the 30-30, but i already had a good .308 reamer with .050 freebore and a fitted neck. it too would shoot "cheap" bullets extremely well. Glad you are getting back into shooting michael!!!
Chuck's Shooting
Chuck's memory serves him well, except for a couple of things. First of all this was in 2009. Earlier post show the powder transactions here on benchrest.
I will describe that day in some detail. The wind was in the 30mph range, with gust probably close to 50mph. The target frames that are used there outside of Lubbock were weighted down with brake rotors. The wind was so strong that the backstops blew over. The backing material was busted and blew out of one of the frames. Flags were not set, because we simply met to make the powder transaction and shoot a few groups. The tails would have been straight out the whole time anyway.
Chuck would put 15 to 20 staples in a 8.5" X 11" target, and it would be ripped off the backstop before he could fire the first shot. This happened about three times, and I can't even remember how we got the targets to stay.
Now Chuck says that WE were shooting in the 1's and low 2's. That is true as a combined effort, but it leads one to believe that I was also shooting 1's. I only shot one group, and it was .210", and I was extremely pleased with that group considering the conditions. However, that group came after Chuck shot a series of four 1's. I went back and looked at older post so I could see the groups sizes. His first group with the HV was a .147", then he shot a .190" group with the LV, followed by a .130" with the light gun. I did not document his other HV group, but all I know is that he never shot anything other than 1's. Together we did shoot a teen agg. in high winds without flags. These groups were shot with four different bullets. Speer 125 TNT, Sierra 135 Matchkings, Sierra 125 Pro Hunters, Berger 125. He shot one group with each of the listed bullets. I only shot one group, the .210" with the Bergers.
The funniest thing I remember was how Chuck looked at me each time the next shot went through the same hole and said "this is a good gun". This would happen through the whole group with each gun. I paid no attention to how he was holding the gun. Probably should have.
I have never in my life seen someone shoot the way he did. It was like being in a underground tunnel, despite the horrible conditions.
Michael
Chuck's memory serves him well, except for a couple of things. First of all this was in 2009. Earlier post show the powder transactions here on benchrest.
I will describe that day in some detail. The wind was in the 30mph range, with gust probably close to 50mph. The target frames that are used there outside of Lubbock were weighted down with brake rotors. The wind was so strong that the backstops blew over. The backing material was busted and blew out of one of the frames. Flags were not set, because we simply met to make the powder transaction and shoot a few groups. The tails would have been straight out the whole time anyway.
Chuck would put 15 to 20 staples in a 8.5" X 11" target, and it would be ripped off the backstop before he could fire the first shot. This happened about three times, and I can't even remember how we got the targets to stay.
Now Chuck says that WE were shooting in the 1's and low 2's. That is true as a combined effort, but it leads one to believe that I was also shooting 1's. I only shot one group, and it was .210", and I was extremely pleased with that group considering the conditions. However, that group came after Chuck shot a series of four 1's. I went back and looked at older post so I could see the groups sizes. His first group with the HV was a .147", then he shot a .190" group with the LV, followed by a .130" with the light gun. I did not document his other HV group, but all I know is that he never shot anything other than 1's. Together we did shoot a teen agg. in high winds without flags. These groups were shot with four different bullets. Speer 125 TNT, Sierra 135 Matchkings, Sierra 125 Pro Hunters, Berger 125. He shot one group with each of the listed bullets. I only shot one group, the .210" with the Bergers.
The funniest thing I remember was how Chuck looked at me each time the next shot went through the same hole and said "this is a good gun". This would happen through the whole group with each gun. I paid no attention to how he was holding the gun. Probably should have.
I have never in my life seen someone shoot the way he did. It was like being in a underground tunnel, despite the horrible conditions.
Michael