What's the highest round count on your br rig before cleaning.

P

Paul Fielder

Guest
I ran across a forum where it was stated than no discipline (including benchrest) would see any amount of accuracy decline up to 500 rounds without cleaning.


I've had 3-4 br rigs and it never even crossed my mind to disregard taking care of cleaning duties. I'm guessing 50-60 may the absolute max I ever went and that was with moly.


Would any of you care to chime in on your thoughts or tests and share how many rounds you have gone before the groups truly opened up due to a fouled br tube??

Just curious.

pf
 
My reason for posting is can I even challenge the thread francis?? I don't think any of us would even consider such a thing.

pf
 
Good question Paul

Paul Fielder said:
I ran across a forum where it was stated than no discipline (including benchrest) would see any amount of accuracy decline up to 500 rounds without cleaning.


I've had 3-4 br rigs and it never even crossed my mind to disregard taking care of cleaning duties. I'm guessing 50-60 may the absolute max I ever went and that was with moly.


Would any of you care to chime in on your thoughts or tests and share how many rounds you have gone before the groups truly opened up due to a fouled br tube??

Just curious.

pf
Click to expand...



Paul, you zeroed in on one of my pet subjects; cleaning!

When I first began shooting benchrest in 1988, I was led to believe that if I didn't clean my barrel after seven to ten rounds, it would self destruct and I would be guilty of an unpardonable sin. :eek: Now I know that's nonsense. :rolleyes:

Another myth that I bought, hook, line, and sinker was barrel break-in. :rolleyes: In my opinion (gotta' remember to say that:)) both practices are a waste of time. I make sure the barrel is clean before fireforming fifteen or twenty new cases; clean thoroughly and start tuning.

How often do I clean? I start a five match agg with a clean barrel and do not clean until that agg is finished.

How do I know this works? I have a fiberoptic borescope that has taught me a lot about barrel life, and cleaning.

Among the cleaning products I use are;

T.K. Nolan rod guide.

Hard, polished, bare stainless steel rods made by Neil Jones and Bill Meyers. I also use Dewey coated rods at times, but prefer the uncoated, polished rods.

Sweets 7.62

Shooter's Choice and Butch's. I use these two interchangeably.

Bronze bore brushes.

J-B bore compound and IOSSO.

Shooter's Choice Black Powder Gell. I use this to thicken an 8 ounce bottle of Shooter's Choice or Butch's so it will cling to the bore while brushing, making twenty round trips with the brush using plenty of bore cleaner. I push the brush all the way out the muzzle and drag it back across the crown twenty times and I have never seen any damage to my sharp crowns. Keep the rod straight, exercise common sense and a reasonable amount of care and you will not damage your barrel.

I don't use any kind of oil, graphite or other slickem before the first shot. I also do not use moly or other bullet coatings.

Last and in my opinion, most important of all, I use a plastic two liter soft drink bottle over the muzzle to catch the brush spray, patches and other goop. Keeps the area clean and besides; you shouldn't be breathing that brush spray. :mad:

FWIW :)

Gene Beggs
 
Thanks Gene!!

I have had several 'discussions' with the break-in deal and not sure I am getting anywhere. I can at least pass along first hand experience but cannot say I have a single barrel on ANY gun with the challenge and any data.


Would you be willing to go 500 rounds w/out cleaning one of your br tubes??

pf
 
So

What is magical aboutt the number 500. Is everything good at 494 to 499, just before the bottom falls out.??

I doubt the Forum you read that on is frequented by many top Benchrest Shooters.

I clean a 6PPC after every group, although I am beginning to believe that may be too often. In Unlimited, we can sometimes put 20 rounds on the paper, and have the last round go into a competitive group. But I would not dare shoot it again untill I clean it.

The 30BR is another story. I have shot complete aggs, and could not tell the difference in the accuracy of the Rifle on the last target as opposed to the first. Personally, I do not know how many rounds you can go before match winning accuracy falls off.

At last years Bluebonnet, I shot my 10.5 pound 30BR Sporter for both of the 100's, never cleaned it. The last group was a .154. The Rifle was very competitive. The majority of the shooters I know who are now shooting 30BR's in Varmint for Score do not clean during a yardage.

As more and more shooters start building 30's, I suppose we will get more input on this subject..........jackie
 
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Second thoughts, me:

I have been one of those who has cleaned at the end of the day for quite a few years. I have always shot 30 Cal rifles and have never thought I detected any degredation in accuracy.

After getting a bore scope I have realized that by not cleaning more often I was getting baked on carbon which looked like firecracking. I only discovered this because I have had some barrels that allowed one groove turn BLACK while the others would clean up. I don't know why this occurs but suspect it's because that groove is deeper than the rest.

In the process of trying to clean the Black Groove up I found I was able to make the firecracking go away. Now, I realize firecracking occurs and I have seen it whilst using my borescope but in this case, I had been deceived a bit.

I am now thinking I should perhaps clean once during the match, say right after the third target when we often break for lunch. I don't think I will see any accuracy improvement but it SHOULD be easier to keep the burnt on carbon out.
 
jackie...nothing is magical to me about any # when it comes to br and cleaning. We are a different animal. I never competed but always used the lucas and put away after a shooting session whether 15 or 50.

My arguement on the other forums in regard to cleaning correctly (following your lead) and breaking in a bbl with poor habits is bad mojo.

My point is how can I debunk the post as jibberish if none of you guys who are way beyond my shooting skills have never taken a br tube...shot it for groups / testing without cleaning until accuracy took a dump??

That's madness...it just irks me he threw br into the mix.:cool: I have nothing to prove we know better.

pf
 
Paul ...

Paul Fielder said:
I ran across a forum where it was stated than no discipline (including benchrest) would see any amount of accuracy decline up to 500 rounds without cleaning.

I've had 3-4 br rigs and it never even crossed my mind to disregard taking care of cleaning duties. I'm guessing 50-60 may the absolute max I ever went and that was with moly.

Would any of you care to chime in on your thoughts or tests and share how many rounds you have gone before the groups truly opened up due to a fouled br tube??

Just curious.

pf
Click to expand...

I'm a BR heretic ... like a few others. I preload for my 6PPC and clean only after each yardage, which for me averages between 37 to 42 rounds. Won a match today ... so I guess it works once in awhile. My rifle actually starts shooting better after 30-35 rounds. I've shot a lot of [Score] Xs with my last and next to last rounds. Gene Beggs taught me there's no need to clean as often as most seem to think they need to.

ON THE TOPIC OF BARRELS by TONY BOYER, in The Precision Shooting Benchrest Primer, on page 348, in the last paragraph of the right column, Mr. Boyer states "At a match we sometimes clean after every group, sometimes after every other group, and sometimes we have shot the entire yardage without cleaning. We cannot see any difference in group size if we do not exceed approximately 35 shots before cleaning." Food for thought. ;)
 
My thought is that all barrels have their own personality. Some will shoot right into the group on the 1st cold clean shot, others need lots of foulers. Some barrels might be super accurate, but only up to 15 shots or so. My favourite barrel at the moment takes 7-8 shots to settle down, but when it does, the accuraccy just keeps getting better and better up to 80 rounds which is the longest I have gone before guilt got the better of me. My other barrel (same reamer etc) is super accurate from cold clean shot to 12-15 rounds, then starts going wonky.
Most barrels are somewhere in between.
500 rounds though, I am sure some sort of fouling would surely be building up.
 
My Method

I shoot Hunter (30HBR) and clean only between the 100 and 200yd yardages. I usually shoot between 35-45 rounds per yardage depending on wind conditions. My latest Shilen barrel, when new, lasted 75 rounds before the group started to open up at an indoor range.

I replace barrels every 5000 rounds just for insurance. However I've never had a barrel open up on me. Inspection of each barrel I replaced showed no cracking or pitting; just slight smoothing at the beginning of the rifling.

Cleaning method:
1. two patches of Sweet's
2. Wait 30 seconds
3. 11 strokes with a Butch's Boreshine soaked bronze brush
4. dry patch
5. one patch with a Kroil soaked patch
6. one dry patch....done

I shoot 136gr BIB's, naked.

P.S. There will be all kinds of stories for this thread.;)

virg
 
I don't compete, and so havent fired thousands of rounds and dozens of rifles like some of these super experienced guys. But I will not sell myself short either; I do strive for bug-hole groups, and thus take an hour to handload 6 rounds to perfection. Then I study those shots at the range.

It seems like I notice sometimes that my barrels are getting into the rhythm (so to speak) of their best accuracy after the first 3 to 6 shots, though I only allow one bore fouler shot after patching the barrel dry of oil. It seems that I can maintain maximum accuracy well into 25-30 shots. So I normally don't clean until after about 30 shots. But, I always clean the barrel anyway before leaving the range, which sometimes isn't more then 10 or 20 rounds fired.
 
I use danzac coated bullets in my 30 Major. I don't typically clean at the range. I've gone for 200 rounds without cleaning and I can't see any dropoff in accuracy. I had several matches last year, where in the second half of a 2 yardage agg, my x count was at or near the top. My point with that is, cleaning it won't make up for missing a switch in conditions.:(--Mike Ezell
 
500 rd before cleaning?????
at that number of round fired the barrel is ready to be unscrewed off and take it apart only 4 practice.....

i clean after every match, is not time consuming and u'll had no excuse for bad groups.....:p

my classic method:
returning at the bench, hot barrel, 2 wet patch ( montana or butch)
10 strokes with brush soaked in butc or montana xtreme,
one clean patch, followed by one soaked. ( max 2 min)

realod , and wathsoever u wanna do,

prior to go to the line, two clean patch, cleaning the lug races, the chamber , lube the bolt and go shooting. ( max 2min)

my .01 euro cent
 
It seems to me....

....that a thorough cleaning after each target lets one begin the next with the same condition in his barrel. I overheard Bart Sauter and Larry Cohen discuss the benefits of cleaning after each match. Larry favored skipping one or more targets without cleaning, but Bart countered with the argument that nearly all of the HOF shooters clean after each target.

Cleaning after each target does not hurt ones accuracy. One may get away with skipping cleaning, but where does the accuracy fall off. It may depend on the load and the climatic conditions. I will elect to clean after each target. Good shooting....James
 
JD Mock said:
....that a thorough cleaning after each target lets one begin the next with the same condition in his barrel. I overheard Bart Sauter and Larry Cohen discuss the benefits of cleaning after each match. Larry favored skipping one or more targets without cleaning, but Bart countered with the argument that nearly all of the HOF shooters clean after each target.

Cleaning after each target does not hurt ones accuracy. One may get away with skipping cleaning, but where does the accuracy fall off. It may depend on the load and the climatic conditions. I will elect to clean after each target. Good shooting....James
Click to expand...

This is a very good point...that one shoots each target with the same condition in the barrel. But, that can also work with a fouled bore. There are two schools of thought even amongst the HOF shooters that you mention. Look at how Tony shoots and you'll see that he shoots few sighters, While Lester shoots a lot of sighters. They both clean after every target, yet their bores are not fouled in the same manner when each one goes to the record.
 
I think that the point that is missing in this discussion is what powder is being used and what fouling characteristics it has. For instance, in the past, there was quite a bit said and written about the advisability of using an abrasive cleaner as part of every cleaning to keep hard carbon fouling in the first 8-10 inches of the barrel in front of the chamber in check. This may have been needed with some powders, but with 133 and hot loads Jackie has been able to keep his barrel clean with patches, bronze brushes, and BBS, as have I (Friends have bore scopes.). On the other hand, a last year, I tried what turned out to be a slow lot of 8208 and what a difference. Ugh! was it ever dirty. I could see where advice recommending abrasives had come from. Different powder = different cleaning reality.
 
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I'm with rooshooter.......

Each barrel is different. Some need to be cleaned frequently and others can go for an entire agg or more. Feel it out for yourself. There will certainly be guys who tell you to clean every target and if you don't, it's a sin. But most of those same guys have never tried to go all day without cleaning and don't really know what happens if you do. I have two barrels right now that don't seem to mind how much copper is in them. But one of them is carbon buildup sensitive and needs to be physically brushed every target or it won't shoot a group to save my life. I had two Krieger barrels that I used to troubleshoot some things and experiment with and they fired some of the best groups they ever shot after 75 rounds had been fired. Go figure.......
 
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