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GordonE
Guest
Starik
If a barrel maker could figure that out. He would be the only one in business.
If a barrel maker could figure that out. He would be the only one in business.
Given two barrels that are in the same exact tune, which is unlikely, but one shoots better in the wind, it's probably velocity, which may be a function of barrel length. But there goes the "same exact tune" theory, because they were not tuned the same to begin with.
The thing I'm not understanding here is the "corkscrew" theory. If I read one post correctly, bullets may "corkscrew" and produce crappy groups out to 50 yards but, within the same flight, get on path and produce great groups out to 100 yards. It would be like a drunk driver telling a cop "I can't walk ten feet straight, but after that, I'll be right on path." Of course, he has to find the path first and the drunk has a brain, maybe not much of one, but still. I'd like to hear how that "corkscrew" works.
The thing I'm not understanding here is the "corkscrew" theory. If I read one post correctly, bullets may "corkscrew" and produce crappy groups out to 50 yards but, within the same flight, get on path and produce great groups out to 100 yards. It would be like a drunk driver telling a cop "I can't walk ten feet straight, but after that, I'll be right on path." Of course, he has to find the path first and the drunk has a brain, maybe not much of one, but still. I'd like to hear how that "corkscrew" works.
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brad541thb
Guest
If a gun shoots single hole groups at 25yds, it ought to do the same or be capable of the same at 50yds. I believe what Mr. Haller said and he is on the right path to what he is saying. I believe that a pefectly cut barrel which we all strive to get that seems to be a hummer of a barrel will stabilize a perfectly concentric bullet before the bullet leaves the barrel. Some barrels just seem to shoot more ammo better than other barrels. Why that is I believe is in the precision of just how close to perfect it was cut and lapped. Like Joe said, a hummer of a barrel is extremely hard to find. I can tell you that Joe Besche's Douglas barrel was probably the most hummerest 
barrel I have actually ever witnessed to shoot day in and day out. That barrel was what I call a true barn burner. They don't get much better than that.
Brad
barrel I have actually ever witnessed to shoot day in and day out. That barrel was what I call a true barn burner. They don't get much better than that.Brad
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Joe Friedrich
Member
How many of us folks really know our rifles, given that the barrel we are using is consistent or uniform from one end to the other ( steel, straightness, chamber, lands, grooves, twist, etc.), then there's tuner weight and setting, and selection of ammo.
Then there are those that know the art of lapping a barrel.
Joe
Then there are those that know the art of lapping a barrel.
Joe
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Fred K
Guest
Have to agree with Beau.
If it don't shoot good groups at 50 yds it will not shoot good groups at 100 yds.
Groups get larger as a fuction of distance.
Fred K
If it don't shoot good groups at 50 yds it will not shoot good groups at 100 yds.
Groups get larger as a fuction of distance.
Fred K
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pacecil
Guest
The idea a gun will shoot smaller groups at 100 yards than it will at 50 yards is simply wrong unless you are measuring the groups in minutes of angle instead of inches. Shooters (Fred J) rarely if ever are shooting through two targets, one at 50 and one at 100 yards, to confirm what they "imagine" occurs.
Bullets leaving the barrel always have some yaw in their flight. In a 22 rimfire the degree of yaw can be reduced at a point about 10 yards up to 60 yards from the muzzle (as Beau pointed out). When this angle of yaw has dropped to only a fraction of a degree the bullet has stabilized or gone to "sleep". Whether the yaw has dropped early in the flight or later has some slight effect on the wind effect on the bullet. Properties of the barrel and the effect of the barrel on the bullet will influence the amount of yaw imparted to the bullet as it leaves the muzzle and thus some barrels may show more "wind effect" than others. Considering the tuners effect is mostly in the vertical it also has practically no effect on the flight of a bullet to resist the wind force. The total "reduced wind effect" is very small in a high quality bench rest barrel, and would take many many groups in constant conditions to confirm - it is thus also "imagined" in most cases.
Then there is that question: "Can a barrel that shoots great in calm conditions, shoot bad on a windy day?.....Duh!
Bullets leaving the barrel always have some yaw in their flight. In a 22 rimfire the degree of yaw can be reduced at a point about 10 yards up to 60 yards from the muzzle (as Beau pointed out). When this angle of yaw has dropped to only a fraction of a degree the bullet has stabilized or gone to "sleep". Whether the yaw has dropped early in the flight or later has some slight effect on the wind effect on the bullet. Properties of the barrel and the effect of the barrel on the bullet will influence the amount of yaw imparted to the bullet as it leaves the muzzle and thus some barrels may show more "wind effect" than others. Considering the tuners effect is mostly in the vertical it also has practically no effect on the flight of a bullet to resist the wind force. The total "reduced wind effect" is very small in a high quality bench rest barrel, and would take many many groups in constant conditions to confirm - it is thus also "imagined" in most cases.
Then there is that question: "Can a barrel that shoots great in calm conditions, shoot bad on a windy day?.....Duh!
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GordonE
Guest
Pacecil
I am confused. (Which is normal) You say that a tuner will influence vertical but won't have much influence on the flight of the bullet. Then why can you tune a barrel to a to a lot less vertical when you have a change in wind velocity.
I am confused. (Which is normal) You say that a tuner will influence vertical but won't have much influence on the flight of the bullet. Then why can you tune a barrel to a to a lot less vertical when you have a change in wind velocity.
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pacecil
Guest
To Gordon E,
I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you saying you can make a tuner adjustment while the wind is changing and reduce the vertical group size compared to what it would have been before the wind change?
I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you saying you can make a tuner adjustment while the wind is changing and reduce the vertical group size compared to what it would have been before the wind change?
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Fred K
Guest
I have found you can tune for the best vertical or horizontal POI. In all my test I find the two don't occur at the same tuner setting. Tested on more than one rifle, barrel and tuner. Anyone else noted this ?
Fred K
Fred K
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GordonE
Guest
Pacecil
No what i am saying is if the barrel is tuned. A change in wind velocity won't move the bullet as far as a as if it isn't tuned.
Fred
I worry a lot more about vertical than Horizontal. Never had much luck with 2 tuner settings.
No what i am saying is if the barrel is tuned. A change in wind velocity won't move the bullet as far as a as if it isn't tuned.
Fred
I worry a lot more about vertical than Horizontal. Never had much luck with 2 tuner settings.
Bill Wynne
Active member
This was the hardest of your questions and the most interesting. I feel that we are getting away from it.
The way I see it is that no one knows. Gunsmithing is a craft not a science. True, there are some elements of physics that play a very large part and these should be understood but, by and large, it is a craft to be learned.
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DonMatzeder
Guest
Tuner changes seem to change POI for me. Also, smallest group setting in a tunnel is not the best setting for shooting in the wind. I'm not a theorist, just a shooter. I don't know why.
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vicvanb
Guest
Hummers
Are we certain that one barrel DOES shoot better in the wind than other barrels?
I know the legend of the "hummer" barrel is widely accepted but has it ever been proven?
Are we certain that one barrel DOES shoot better in the wind than other barrels?
I know the legend of the "hummer" barrel is widely accepted but has it ever been proven?
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pacecil
Guest
What we think we know!....
Okay, it's time to bring up something none of you want to hear!
There was an article in Precision Shooting about 15 years ago where an "expert", a scientist, an engineer, a benchrest shooter - he was all these - used some math and a computer to determine what information you could get out of groups. Basically he determined that you have about a 50% probability, or a 50/50 chance, of being right when you shoot a group and decide if some change you've made has caused the group to be larger or smaller. In other words when you think a barrel shoots better in the wind than another one and you shoot a group to decide this you only have about a 50/50 chance of being right. If you shoot a group in the wind with a tuned barrel you have a 50/50 chance the group will be smaller than it would have been with an untuned barrel.(You also have a 50/50 chance it will be LARGER!) He applied groups of 3 to 20 shots and up to 25 groups (easy to do in a computer) and probabilities change somewhat but in the group sizes and number of groups most of us use the bottom line is we only have about a 50/50 chance that what we read from the group dimension will be right!
Okay, it's time to bring up something none of you want to hear!
There was an article in Precision Shooting about 15 years ago where an "expert", a scientist, an engineer, a benchrest shooter - he was all these - used some math and a computer to determine what information you could get out of groups. Basically he determined that you have about a 50% probability, or a 50/50 chance, of being right when you shoot a group and decide if some change you've made has caused the group to be larger or smaller. In other words when you think a barrel shoots better in the wind than another one and you shoot a group to decide this you only have about a 50/50 chance of being right. If you shoot a group in the wind with a tuned barrel you have a 50/50 chance the group will be smaller than it would have been with an untuned barrel.(You also have a 50/50 chance it will be LARGER!) He applied groups of 3 to 20 shots and up to 25 groups (easy to do in a computer) and probabilities change somewhat but in the group sizes and number of groups most of us use the bottom line is we only have about a 50/50 chance that what we read from the group dimension will be right!
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Bill Myers
Guest
Starik,Sometime in mid February,you will answer your own Question. BILL
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Tom C.
Guest
tuning
does anyone have a spare wind tunnel
i need one for testing. wonder how much this
is going to cost me?
does anyone have a spare wind tunnel
i need one for testing. wonder how much this
is going to cost me?
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DonMatzeder
Guest
You can shoot for free in mine but the ammo is on you.
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Tom C.
Guest
wind tunnel
argh, another expense does it ever end?
argh, another expense does it ever end?
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Joe Haller
Guest
Just a guess . . .
I suspect that the shooters who come close to proving the Hummer Legion, are the ones who buy 6 or a dozen barrels each year, test them all, and then win matches with the one that is, or comes close to being a Hummer.
Joe Haller
I suspect that the shooters who come close to proving the Hummer Legion, are the ones who buy 6 or a dozen barrels each year, test them all, and then win matches with the one that is, or comes close to being a Hummer.
Joe Haller