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BigBlack
Guest
Would making everyone use the same factory ammo help level the field?
I do not know just a thought.
I do not know just a thought.
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What Is a "Factory" Rifle
- Thread starter jackie schmidt
- Start date
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Dave Short
Guest
It may help level the field, but the expense would defeat some of the purpose of having a factory class.
-Dave-
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Vibe
Guest
You guys hash all of this out. But something real similar to the suggestion I made worked for several years in the International RimFire Postal Matches. And also something similar works for the NRA ranking standings.
Shoot whatever you got, but if you win enough, we will acknowledge the accomplishment, BUT, we're going to graduate you up out of the "shallow end".
Shoot whatever you got, but if you win enough, we will acknowledge the accomplishment, BUT, we're going to graduate you up out of the "shallow end".
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AVanGorder
Guest
Purpose of Factory Class
Take a moment an ask what is the purpose of Factory/Production Class.
My first thoughts.
-A way to try Benchrest.
-To appeal to almost any rifle owner.
-An economical category/class of Benchrest.
It may or may not be a stepping stone for an individual. I personally enjoy shooting my factory rifles. If there was a sanctioned Production class, I would dust off my $400 Savage 223 and load some ammo for it.
Take a moment an ask what is the purpose of Factory/Production Class.
My first thoughts.
-A way to try Benchrest.
-To appeal to almost any rifle owner.
-An economical category/class of Benchrest.
It may or may not be a stepping stone for an individual. I personally enjoy shooting my factory rifles. If there was a sanctioned Production class, I would dust off my $400 Savage 223 and load some ammo for it.
C
chillippr
Guest
Class rules for Groundhog shoots at the South Fork Rifle Club, copied from their web site.
They have a very popular and successful program,
South Fork Rifle Club
Beaverdale, Pa
www.southforkrifleclub.com
FEE- $ 12.00 PER GUN
RIFLE CLASSES:
Factory Sporter – Rifle must have original barrel, stock and action. No modifications or accurizing except stock bedding or trigger work, safety must work. Any power scope is allowed.
Any handgun may shoot in this class.
Factory Varmint – Rifle must be original factory varmint. Barrel, stock and action must be original. No modifications or accurizing except stock bedding or trigger work, safety must work. Any power scope allowed.
Rifles must be common mass produced in both factory classes, certain rifles will be classed as Unlimited or Factory Single Shot. Match Director will determine questionable rifles CHECK WITH HIM BEFORE YOU DECIDE ON A RIFLE IN THE FACTORY CLASSES.
*Factory Single Shot* – Any single shot rifle in the condition it came from the factory. No accurizing,changing of stocks,or metal work allowed. Stocks may be bedded,trigger work done,factory safety must work. Any power scope allowed.This class will be reviewed after 2009 season for changes that may be needed.
Light Unlimited - any customized rifle 13 ½ lbs. or lighter. Custom barrel, custom stock, custom twist or accurizing done to rifle. Any scope and any trigger are allowed. And any rifle determined by Match Director to be in this class.
Heavy Unlimited - any customized rifle over 13 ½ lbs but max weight of 20 lbs. Custom barrel, custom stock, custom twist or any accurizing done to the rifle. Any scope and any trigger are allowed. And any rifle determined by the Match Director to be in this class.
.223 Class - All rifles must be original Factory rifles with no modifications or accurizing done except stock bedding and trigger work. Safety must work. 223 Sporter rifles may choose this class or Factory Sporter. 223 Varmint rifles may choose this class or Factory Varmint and do not have to stay in this class. Caliber must be 223 Remington. IF IN DOUBT CONTACT THE MATCH DIRECTOR.
A great place to start!
Junior Class
FEE-$ 2.00 PER GUN
Shooters10 to 15 years’ of age may compete in this class. Shooters may use any rifle that the junior can safely use. Adult may assist the junior shooter for safety reasons only. Junior shooters will shoot 100-300 yards only for score. But may elect to shoot at the 500 yard target for fun only.
They have a very popular and successful program,
South Fork Rifle Club
Beaverdale, Pa
www.southforkrifleclub.com
FEE- $ 12.00 PER GUN
RIFLE CLASSES:
Factory Sporter – Rifle must have original barrel, stock and action. No modifications or accurizing except stock bedding or trigger work, safety must work. Any power scope is allowed.
Any handgun may shoot in this class.
Factory Varmint – Rifle must be original factory varmint. Barrel, stock and action must be original. No modifications or accurizing except stock bedding or trigger work, safety must work. Any power scope allowed.
Rifles must be common mass produced in both factory classes, certain rifles will be classed as Unlimited or Factory Single Shot. Match Director will determine questionable rifles CHECK WITH HIM BEFORE YOU DECIDE ON A RIFLE IN THE FACTORY CLASSES.
*Factory Single Shot* – Any single shot rifle in the condition it came from the factory. No accurizing,changing of stocks,or metal work allowed. Stocks may be bedded,trigger work done,factory safety must work. Any power scope allowed.This class will be reviewed after 2009 season for changes that may be needed.
Light Unlimited - any customized rifle 13 ½ lbs. or lighter. Custom barrel, custom stock, custom twist or accurizing done to rifle. Any scope and any trigger are allowed. And any rifle determined by Match Director to be in this class.
Heavy Unlimited - any customized rifle over 13 ½ lbs but max weight of 20 lbs. Custom barrel, custom stock, custom twist or any accurizing done to the rifle. Any scope and any trigger are allowed. And any rifle determined by the Match Director to be in this class.
.223 Class - All rifles must be original Factory rifles with no modifications or accurizing done except stock bedding and trigger work. Safety must work. 223 Sporter rifles may choose this class or Factory Sporter. 223 Varmint rifles may choose this class or Factory Varmint and do not have to stay in this class. Caliber must be 223 Remington. IF IN DOUBT CONTACT THE MATCH DIRECTOR.
A great place to start!
Junior Class
FEE-$ 2.00 PER GUN
Shooters10 to 15 years’ of age may compete in this class. Shooters may use any rifle that the junior can safely use. Adult may assist the junior shooter for safety reasons only. Junior shooters will shoot 100-300 yards only for score. But may elect to shoot at the 500 yard target for fun only.
J
jaybic
Guest
Hey all,
Why don they just call it "Wal-mart" class or "Departments store" class. Thats where most of these Savages/Remington SPS/Tikka rifles come from anyway. That eliminates the "boutique" rifles that are pretty darn close to customs as is, arnt they?
Jamie
P.S. No offense to those guys. I would love to own one of their rifles and someday I will.
Why don they just call it "Wal-mart" class or "Departments store" class. Thats where most of these Savages/Remington SPS/Tikka rifles come from anyway. That eliminates the "boutique" rifles that are pretty darn close to customs as is, arnt they?
Jamie
P.S. No offense to those guys. I would love to own one of their rifles and someday I will.
F
Fixinit
Guest
My thought would be to have 2 classes where there are enough shooters.
either divided by weight, or gun type such as Cooper, Savage and 40X / everything else.
My first choice would be by weight.
Then the real hunting gun guys will have a chance to compete amoung their own and the more serious guys will be shooting against each other.
Getting new shooters is very hard, if someone walks in with his grand fathers rifle to try shooting and has to shoot against a new Savage LRPV you probably wont see him again.
If the match is small ask the guy with the LRPV or 40X If he would shoot with the custom class. Maybe even offer him a handycap. If the situation is explained to the shooter most will be flexible.
Kim
either divided by weight, or gun type such as Cooper, Savage and 40X / everything else.
My first choice would be by weight.
Then the real hunting gun guys will have a chance to compete amoung their own and the more serious guys will be shooting against each other.
Getting new shooters is very hard, if someone walks in with his grand fathers rifle to try shooting and has to shoot against a new Savage LRPV you probably wont see him again.
If the match is small ask the guy with the LRPV or 40X If he would shoot with the custom class. Maybe even offer him a handycap. If the situation is explained to the shooter most will be flexible.
Kim
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TBonz
Guest
The Answer
She needs her own safe!!!
You should see how pissed she gets when she wants to put Lucy or Woodstock in a safe but won't fit because they are "full of junk" as she puts it.
Adrian
She needs her own safe!!!
Jerry Reisdorff
New member
What about using a negitive handy cap based on cost of the rifle.
Cost < = 650.00 No points deducted.
Cost > 650 but < 800 Deduct 2 point from final score
Cost > 800 Deduct 4 points from final Score.
Cost must be stated at sign in and agreed on by the M.D.
Jerry
Cost < = 650.00 No points deducted.
Cost > 650 but < 800 Deduct 2 point from final score
Cost > 800 Deduct 4 points from final Score.
Cost must be stated at sign in and agreed on by the M.D.
Jerry
This is always an interesting subject that seems to rear its head a couple of times a year.
I do not have a pat answer on how to handle it but I will relate my experience with it.
First I have to give a little background on our club and our shoots. The club was started about 50 years ago, the main shoots of our club have been "meat shoots" four or five times a year, and the match was a "one-shot closest to the bullseye". The attendance has always been good for a small rural area, usually anywhere from 20 to 30 shooters. The rifles were basically sporter rifles, anything from an elk hunting rifle to a varmint rifle, they all competed in the same class. Surprisingly enough the varmint rifles did not have a lock on winning everytime using the one shot closest to the bull format.
Unfortunately I ramped up the level of competition quite a bit a few years ago when I started using a Tikka varminter that was uncannily accurate, that started the arms race. It was not long before full-blown bench guns started showing up complete with Leupold 45's and Nightforce scopes and we started group shooting. Within a short time it became a contest between a half-dozen or so people and within a few matches I noticed that the base of our shooters, the guys with true sporter rifles, were no longer shooting, they would show up and watch or maybe shoot someones bench gun for a match or two but we were losing the core of our matches.
To hopefully counter this downward trend I started a "sporter class" - basically it is a class for the average shooter that doesn't want to spend the money, time, or even have the inclination to go beyond that level. The rules, while judgmental, are quite simple - if it looks like a sporter, it is a sporter - if it looks like a bench-gun, then it is a bench gun. As an example - I have a Cooper Varminter (varmint stock, medium heavy barrel) in 223, it competes against the bench guns. I have a Cooper Classic (sporter stock, sporter barrel) in 222 and it competes in the sporter class. Both rifles are equally accurate, both are single shot but the sporter is more difficult to shoot given the stock style. Using this classification system puts some of the "off-the-shelf" Savages, Remington's, Winchester's, etc. into the bench gun class but having to shoot in that class more truly reflects their design and use intent more than the sporter classification.
So far this has worked great for us, we are regaining our core of sporter shooters and we still have some serious competition in the bench gun class. So far no one has complained about the way we are doing it - mostly, I think, because a person shooting a rifle with a heavier barrel, and a stock style that is better at riding the bags realizes that they have an advantage.
So in the end it comes down to what we think a sporter looks like, and that is "if it looks like a sporter - then it is".
Good luck on working this, we were lucky in our area that everyone has gone along with it - from all of the replies on this subject it is obviously a hot-button issue.
I do not have a pat answer on how to handle it but I will relate my experience with it.
First I have to give a little background on our club and our shoots. The club was started about 50 years ago, the main shoots of our club have been "meat shoots" four or five times a year, and the match was a "one-shot closest to the bullseye". The attendance has always been good for a small rural area, usually anywhere from 20 to 30 shooters. The rifles were basically sporter rifles, anything from an elk hunting rifle to a varmint rifle, they all competed in the same class. Surprisingly enough the varmint rifles did not have a lock on winning everytime using the one shot closest to the bull format.
Unfortunately I ramped up the level of competition quite a bit a few years ago when I started using a Tikka varminter that was uncannily accurate, that started the arms race. It was not long before full-blown bench guns started showing up complete with Leupold 45's and Nightforce scopes and we started group shooting. Within a short time it became a contest between a half-dozen or so people and within a few matches I noticed that the base of our shooters, the guys with true sporter rifles, were no longer shooting, they would show up and watch or maybe shoot someones bench gun for a match or two but we were losing the core of our matches.
To hopefully counter this downward trend I started a "sporter class" - basically it is a class for the average shooter that doesn't want to spend the money, time, or even have the inclination to go beyond that level. The rules, while judgmental, are quite simple - if it looks like a sporter, it is a sporter - if it looks like a bench-gun, then it is a bench gun. As an example - I have a Cooper Varminter (varmint stock, medium heavy barrel) in 223, it competes against the bench guns. I have a Cooper Classic (sporter stock, sporter barrel) in 222 and it competes in the sporter class. Both rifles are equally accurate, both are single shot but the sporter is more difficult to shoot given the stock style. Using this classification system puts some of the "off-the-shelf" Savages, Remington's, Winchester's, etc. into the bench gun class but having to shoot in that class more truly reflects their design and use intent more than the sporter classification.
So far this has worked great for us, we are regaining our core of sporter shooters and we still have some serious competition in the bench gun class. So far no one has complained about the way we are doing it - mostly, I think, because a person shooting a rifle with a heavier barrel, and a stock style that is better at riding the bags realizes that they have an advantage.
So in the end it comes down to what we think a sporter looks like, and that is "if it looks like a sporter - then it is".
Good luck on working this, we were lucky in our area that everyone has gone along with it - from all of the replies on this subject it is obviously a hot-button issue.
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david dumas
Guest
Chillippr, jr's should beable to win too!!!!! shawn harris(danny hensley's boy) smoked everybody a couple years ago @ a egg shoot (I think he was 13-14 years old) he shoots IBS score against the big boys and holds his own too!!!
have a jr class for the kids but let the score also count against the big guys too!! that'll give'em something to brag about!!!!!!!!, shooting bow turney's I've had jr shooters whippass more than once and only a few buttheads complained, everbody else was glade to see the kids excell.
the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,
DD
Perhaps, I should add some more info.
At my club. Tues. 9am and 6pm Benchrest 200 yd score. Everyone shoots together. But, most are in different classes. And shoot different targets. The classes are: Factory scope, Factory Irons, Unlimited scope, Unlimited Irons,... There is another class. Can't remember. Scope uses IBS Hunter 200 yd.(1" 10 ring). Irons use some big thing(4" 10 ring. I think). I shoot scope.
The older guys shoot Irons. Those peep sight things. And some have space guns( 2 older guys shoot space guns and peeps. And don't reload). So you are still shooting against people in the same class. Maybe, not at the same time. Real nice for second shift.
Varmint league. New last year. Lotta fun. Everyone shoots together. 4 classes. Don't know what you are shooting at. Or the range. Till you get there. No wind flags. 1pm 3rd Sunday of month. Lots of mirage.
At my club. Tues. 9am and 6pm Benchrest 200 yd score. Everyone shoots together. But, most are in different classes. And shoot different targets. The classes are: Factory scope, Factory Irons, Unlimited scope, Unlimited Irons,... There is another class. Can't remember. Scope uses IBS Hunter 200 yd.(1" 10 ring). Irons use some big thing(4" 10 ring. I think). I shoot scope.
The older guys shoot Irons. Those peep sight things. And some have space guns( 2 older guys shoot space guns and peeps. And don't reload)
. So you are still shooting against people in the same class. Maybe, not at the same time. Real nice for second shift.Varmint league. New last year. Lotta fun. Everyone shoots together. 4 classes. Don't know what you are shooting at. Or the range. Till you get there. No wind flags. 1pm 3rd Sunday of month. Lots of mirage.
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Sitting Duck
Guest
"The rules are you can bed it, and adjust the trigger, but that is it." I like your rules.
To me, a factory rifle is anything that is mass produced for distribution. If you start allowing additional modifications then you should create another class called factory modified or something. IMHO.
The playing field should be kept as level as possible. Your intent in creating the class shouldn't be bogged down by micro equipment management. The people you're trying to attract shouldn't be saddled with this either.
Good luck, with trying to keep it clean.
To me, a factory rifle is anything that is mass produced for distribution. If you start allowing additional modifications then you should create another class called factory modified or something. IMHO.
The playing field should be kept as level as possible. Your intent in creating the class shouldn't be bogged down by micro equipment management. The people you're trying to attract shouldn't be saddled with this either.
Good luck, with trying to keep it clean.
T
Twud
Guest
Savage Class
Why not have a Savage class? It would be even more of an incentive for the big boys to get it together.
Why not have a Savage class? It would be even more of an incentive for the big boys to get it together.
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Bill Ohio
Guest
Sounds like drug testing, but should be more successful if...
... you require shooters in the 'Factory' class to sign an affadavit swearing that their rifles meet the stipulated requirements.
There's not enough money in shooting matches to provide incentive for competitors to take steroids, HGH, EPO, and other "supplements" to give themselves an edge. Meaning, the money in sports provides incentive to cheat, even at the cost of long-term health hazards.
In shooting, which is a relatively small community and a person's word of honor still has some value, I'm betting that the few weasels who would be inclined to re-chamber, re-crown, re-whatever outside of the rules would be less inclined to do so if they signed their name to their reputation.
On the other hand, if Clinton or his/her ilk are among the competitors, then swearing an oath means nothing.
I like the idea that a certain amount of cumulative success would require the Factory class competitors to move into the other classes (like in Highpower shooting). Or, that competitor can use a different factory rifle.
First, figure out what you're trying to do with Factory class. Then, design the rules to yield the greatest success. It won't be perfect, it just needs to be good enough.
Sounds like this could lead to opportunities for polygraphing at the bigger matches. And Notary Publics to witness the registration signatures. And x-ray machines to check a rifle's innards. Maybe the TSA can provide some staffing, ha ha.
... you require shooters in the 'Factory' class to sign an affadavit swearing that their rifles meet the stipulated requirements.
There's not enough money in shooting matches to provide incentive for competitors to take steroids, HGH, EPO, and other "supplements" to give themselves an edge. Meaning, the money in sports provides incentive to cheat, even at the cost of long-term health hazards.
In shooting, which is a relatively small community and a person's word of honor still has some value, I'm betting that the few weasels who would be inclined to re-chamber, re-crown, re-whatever outside of the rules would be less inclined to do so if they signed their name to their reputation.
On the other hand, if Clinton or his/her ilk are among the competitors, then swearing an oath means nothing.
I like the idea that a certain amount of cumulative success would require the Factory class competitors to move into the other classes (like in Highpower shooting). Or, that competitor can use a different factory rifle.
First, figure out what you're trying to do with Factory class. Then, design the rules to yield the greatest success. It won't be perfect, it just needs to be good enough.
Sounds like this could lead to opportunities for polygraphing at the bigger matches. And Notary Publics to witness the registration signatures. And x-ray machines to check a rifle's innards. Maybe the TSA can provide some staffing, ha ha.
