What Is a "Factory" Rifle

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
It had to come up, and with just cause.

A shooter came to our final Club match at Tomball last Sunday with a Factory Savage. Now, I will be the first to admitt that I am not up on the latest offerrings in Factory Rifles. I did not think twice about letting the shooter, (a darned good one), enter our Factory Class with what to me was an out of the box Savage.

Well, that thing might be a out of the box Savage, but it shoots like a "out of the shop" custom. Heck, he scored higher than all of the custom barrel Modified Rifles. In fact, he beat quite a few of the Benchrest Class Shooters

I have a decision to make in between now and next years first match. Lets face it, I instituted a Factory class with the idea of attracting shooters with common Rifles, who just wanted to come out and shoot. The rules are you can bed it, and adjust the trigger, but that is it.

By definition, this Savage is a "Factory Rifle". Looking at the ad on their web site, it is classed as their "target rifle". But all you have to do to aquiter one is oder it.

I guess the Remington 40x, and perhaps the Cooper, fall into this same category. The Remington is certainly a product of a mass production Factory. Should a "out of the box" 40x be allowed in Factory Class??.

I am open to suggestions. I do not want to drive away the other Factory Shooters, but I also do not want to penalize a good shooter, who has done his home work, aquired a really good shooting factory rifle, carefully worked up his loads, and knows how to shoot it.

We have all Winter to think about it........jackie
 
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Factory rifle??

Jackie:
I realize you are shooting NBRSA matches at Tomball. I shoot in a 500 meter groundhog match with both factory and custom rifles. Here are our restrictions for a factory rifle. This is just might be thought provoking for you.

"Factory class – Any factory rifle chambered for ammo produced by Winchester, Remington, Federal, Norma or other major manufacturer. Stock, barrel, and trigger must be original factory. Bedding can be changed. Original factory trigger may be tuned. No custom work on action. Re-crowning is not allowed and muzzle-brakes and/or porting must be factory original. Rechambering is not allowed; must be original factory chamber. No bolt-on additions or changes to factory stocks."

Other clubs have similar restrictions regarding factory rifles. Consider designing rules to suit your participants. The basic problem is that - as you succinctly state - so many out of the box rifles today are, in fact, on a par accuracy wise with the best custom pieces. Its tough to keep a level playing field.
 
Factory / Production

I am a firm believer of a class for the store bought guns. First change the name to Production and the mind set will/may change with it.

Gun must be mass produced (see the similarity with Production).
Gun must have all original parts.
Gun must be shooting cartridge stamped on barrel.
Improvement of original parts is allowed as long as it doesn't change any dimension.
Gun must be loaded and fired one round at a time.

Any bolt on accessory is allowed that doesn't conflict with IBS/NBRSA BR rules

Don't use the word rifle, invite those T/C owners.

Don't limit scopes, don't limit age of shooter, don't prohibit anyone, open the doors to everyone.
 
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Hmmm

That Savage meets every category listed so far.

The rules for this year were, "readilly available mass produced rifles, no modifications other than bedding, and adjusting the factory trigger".......jackie
 
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Jackie....

Francis is right...a factory rifle is what the club says it is. I shot an F-class Savage at a recent 600 yard match. There were two classes...factory and custom. I had to shoot in the custom class. The reason given was that the forearm was too wide. The Savages are truly great shooters, but I finished third behind a custom Panda and a BAT custom. Good shooting...James
 
Admittedly, I am a savage guy....but when I walk into a cabela's, Dick's sporting goods, Gander mountain, etc... The rifles that are on the wall are, to me, factory offerings. When I made my choice to buy my .223 I picked it based on 1)accuracy 2) accuracy 3) price, and then modifying ability.
I looked at Coopers, Remingtons, Rugers, Browning and so on, but none of them could touch the savage in what were my top three criteria.
Now, of course, the target models are getting up there in price at equal or above what the remingtons and close to coopers, but they are still mass produced with no "extra" work put into them (i.e. truing, bedding, custom chamber job).
What's amazing is that there are bone stock, non-target style savages that will shoot like that, too. Not every one mind you, but they're out there.
Not that I'm biased or anything :)
If you put a limit on the factory guns you will limit those neophyte Benchresters from coming to the match. If the savages are ruling the show, someone who has a small budget and a remington that isn't shooting well may pick up a savage for the next match, or vice versa. I would look at it as anything that gets someone to a match is a good thing. If they get beat and don't come back, they weren't going to contribute to the sport in the future.

My 2 cents.
Mike
 
jackie, in dublin ga @ mggoa twin oaks range we have a strong "factory class" rules are simple, off the shelf rifles production, no bedding jobs, no action work, trigger jobs allowed but only on factory trigger, forearm adapters allowed, 24 power scope limit(I hate that part because when a shooter moves up in class he's got to repower). we allow savage, coopers, sako(6ppc's where ruling until some of us savaged up) remington production (VSSF) & 700 tach/police models, sorry no 40X's. we have 8-16 factory shooters the second saturday jan-oct, we usually have more shooters in factory than VFS,Modified,hunter and custom combined. I started there in factory with a remington VSSF in 22-250 and moved to IBS score (30BR) after 3-4 shoots but I still shoot club factory match's every month, hell I won a IBS 100 yard, 200 yard & grand agg before I won a club factory match! some of the guys shoot IBS, some just shoot club match's. I think we've had 5 or 6 different winners this year and I know of 4-5 shooters that have moved on to IBS or NBRSA in the two years I've been shooting there.

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,

DD
 
Your shooter had a great day and beat some others who didn't shoot so well. Somebody has to win, and some others have to be also rans. If his gun meets the "factory class" description, good for him and congrats on a great shooting day. How many times has it been written on this forum that its not the equipment that beats the others, its the shooter?

In my opinion, you start "re-qualifying" your factory class, you are driving away those shooters that you are trying to attract.

Remember the mega-page thread a few pages back about how to attract new shooters?

Savage is listening to what shooters want and are building what they are asking for. Good for them.
 
Our 1000 yard club's best ever light gun group was shot with a factory Savage first trip out - 3½" or thereabouts.
 
I have a Fac Remington PSS in 308 that shoots with any 308 that I have ever shot......I emphize "I". All that I have done was tweak with the trigger. Lapped and trued the scope rings....with a 6.5 x 20 Leupold EFR scope ..clean reg and with proper methods and tuned handloads.......Laupa brass of coruse...........it shoots uncanny
 
Savage

Jackie, I say let him shoot it. Yes it shoots well and he did score higher than our modifieds. I don't know that that would happen all the time but that is not a knock on his rifle or his abilities. He obviously is a very good shooter.

Joe
 
Savage has an enviable reputation of producing a truley factory gun
that shoots. They have found unique ways of assembling them that
keep them affordable. Remington makes a 710 to compete in that
market, but it competes in price only. With that said, there is much
about a savage that makes it difficult to verify that it is truely factory.
Change nearly anything with a remchester and it can be seen.
I for one would like to see a common set of rules that allow
shooters to attend more matches in there area. More attendance
is never bad. So many of us began in a factory setting or in
informal matches. I have been in Jackies position of decission many
times, and there is no way to please everyone. Locally what is good
for the club is what must prevail.
Its clear that Some savage barrels are the equal of 40x and coopers.
So who is to say that some factory rifles can't shoot the way they do.
I have seen great discontent among shooters, where its believed
that Ralph's 327 wood getter is not stock. All the rules, require
inspection, that takes time. I believe that given a weight limit,
a round bottom or at least convex stock and a weight limit
regarding triggers. ( restrictor plate logic) Beyond that allow
innovation, let them do whatever makes them happy. Make a lot of people
happy and you'll have good turn-outs.
 
Jackie
This reminds me of the early days of IHSMA with Elgin Gates and Freedom Arms. It bugs me that people are still lying about what happened and why, but in a nut shell Freedom arms bragged about there gun being "hand fitted" which took it out of "stock or factory " class. When they found that out they quite claiming it to be anything but stock factory. The whole national club voted to use a dollar value limit. None of us liked it but we did not know what else to do. To this day there are hard feelings among many. All I can say from my limited experience is that "stock or factory" usually ends up being a can of worms. Some have used a "claiming" provision but I have never liked the idea
 
Jackie ...

Here's the new look of Savage "FACTORY or PRODUCTION rifles: http://www.savagearms.com/12f_class.htm. Savage has been listening to shooters (in some cases competitive shooters) and giving them what they want. Look at the specs. These guns are getting better and better and becoming competitive. I believe you saw this on Sunday. Also, factory / production shooters ... with the help, assistance, and coaching by Benchrest veterans like you and your colleagues ... are improving their shooting skills. It's a WONDERFUL NEW WORLD !!! Personally, THANKS for YOUR help and assistance here and at the range. Art
 
Jackie,

I have no answers for you. I don't believe there are hard & fast answers, just some observations.

I shot a Savage in the Factory class at Rockingham last year. It was put together from pieces from two, both pre-1995 models, so none of the new stuff. But I had the other one rebarreled by Savage in .25/06 to shoot at 1,000 yards, and it turns out, such work is done by their equivalent of the custom shop. It came back with dykem blue all over it. Also, when it came back, there were a few spare parts from the factory, an extra & better recoil lug & an extra pretty good nut, so I put these on the .223.

It was bedded, and re-crowned. The chamber was pure factory, but the scope used was pure BR, a 36x B&L. It also had a replacement trigger. All this was legal at Rockingham. (I prefer allowing a replacement trigger, so people will not lighten a factory trigger to an unsafe level, then decide they like it & leave the rifle set up that way. Roy Darnell agreed. I can shoot a heavy trigger if it comes to it.)

Last match of the season, at a reduced target at 200 yards, I also managed to beat a number of the BR guns, and some of the custom. Well, it is a good rifle, and I had a rare day.

Match 2, I had to compete against a couple of 6PPC's, a Sako and a Ruger. They shot well & one of them beat me -- I forget which. No Coopers, thank God.

There is no answer. Even the under-$300 Savages of the pre 1995 era, with enough parts & a good barrel, can be made to beat about half the bench guns on the line.

And the numbers sack up, one in what, 1,000 or so Remington or Savage box-stock, no-extra-parts rifles will beat most custom BR rifles. All the Coopers etc. do is to take that number down a bit.

I've said all along, and still believe, if you want a new-to-benchrest class, limit it to those who are new to benchrest & don't worry so much about equipment. Anything else will just repeat what the IHMSA people found.

Charles
 
So its OK to win with a 700 but not something else? :rolleyes:

Where I grew up, those that quit and took their football home, never made it home with the football.
 
Jackie,
I ran into this problem. This Year. But, It really happened last year(I didn't know this. Last year I didn't care about rankings).
I joined a local. Happened to be at the range, before a Benchrest 200 yd for score league. Club Sec. talks me into shooting. Got a 133/200.:D
I shoot a couple more. Then, there is a Varmint League. I shoot that. In the middle I asked the Club Sec. about this.
http://savagearms.com/12PrecVarm.htm
In .223 rem. 1 in 7". Nice gun. Bushnell 6-24X scope. :D :D
He says shouldn't be a problem. I find out this year. That last year, I was classed Factory for Benchrest and Unlimited for the Varmint.
This year. After some discussion. Factory class for both leagues.
Someone else had said it was not a Factory gun. Because the stock indicates HS Precision.
In my area. Most my guns have been ordered. But, are still Factory guns.
By the way. I had a 188/200 avg.(I just bought some wind flags). And took second place. The Club Sec. has a Sako 22 PPC. He got first.
 
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Savages are here to stay..

Jackie:

I have great respect for you but the ugly duckling Savage Factory rifle has made a name for itself for about 10 years now. And the management at Savage is listening to their customers. Their rifles are only getting better than their competition. I have customized many that will shoot in the low teens and even single digits. They are not a high-end custom but they can get the job done. The aftermarket market for the Savage is growing much like the Remington market did in the 1960s and 70s. I beleive by penalizing them or excluding them you will do more harm that just living with them.

Have a great day.

Rustystud
 
jackie,
my club shoots three factory classes, we shoot them in score only.

factory hunter: 6 x scope, 30-30 case capacity or more, bedding, rework factory trigger.think that is it.( must be a med/lite weight field bbl)

factory varmit: any scope, 25 cal or less, same mods allowed.

factory sniper: any scope, any cal, heavy bbl allowed, same mods.

just more data for you to play wiith.

mike in co
 
Factory is Factory...

Here at the Austin Rifle Club score matches "Factory is Factory". If it comes off the sporting goods store rack and is not "hardware" modified, it's Factory.

Since the Sniper, Police, Tactical, and Varmint rifles have come on the market from all the manufacturer's, the accuracy has improved greatly in mass produced rifles. At my match, they are still "Factory" rifles. In my experience, it's the poor shooter who complains the most. Most of these folks will shoot in a few matches and then quit, not matter what equipment they use.

I've had three shooters move up to Benchrest rifles when they reached their factory rifle accuracy limit at about consistant mid 240 scores and bought used benchrest class rifles.

Most factory shooters experience their most improvement when they start reloading and develop the load their rifle likes. They are amazed at the improvement and at the same time start realizing the benefits of wind flags.

The other factory shooters that still complain, just quit in frustration still convinced one can buy their way into the winner's circle, but they just can't afford it.

In your own words Jackie..."keep it simple".

The ten ring rules...I'll worry about the "X's" later.

Virg
 
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