Weikert 100/200 Yd IBS Nationals
- Thread starter Eddie Harren
- Start date
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Weikurt has always been this way, from my experience
I shot there twice or three times and refused to return after the second or third fiasco. They were banned from holding more Score Nationals for some years after that but someone relented. My experience was very negative and the folks running things either didn't have a clue, were lazy or didn't give a damn. There was no prep work done, in terms or organization and there were problems with the Rangemaster who was clueless but I don't recall the details.I have no dog in this but If I were running things, they would never have been allowed to host another Score Nationals. Allow someone who actually cares about something other than the income from host it.
Pete
I shot there twice or three times and refused to return after the second or third fiasco. They were banned from holding more Score Nationals for some years after that but someone relented. My experience was very negative and the folks running things either didn't have a clue, were lazy or didn't give a damn. There was no prep work done, in terms or organization and there were problems with the Rangemaster who was clueless but I don't recall the details.I have no dog in this but If I were running things, they would never have been allowed to host another Score Nationals. Allow someone who actually cares about something other than the income from host it.
Pete
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I've shot many matches at Weikert, mostly group, but also score. You won't find a better equipped facility in the east for holding BR matches of any kind. Of course, to have matches at any range, there has to be people willing to run them. Some ranges have retired members that can dedicate a lot of time to this endeavor. Weikert's volunteers all have full time jobs to contend with, making it difficult to put in as much time. The IBS group nationals will be at Weikert in 2018, and with the help of volunteers (shooters), it will be a success. Since you seem to have so much time on your hands, perhaps you could spearhead the prize giveaway each year at the score nationals? I doubt any range would turn down the help.
You're obviously not familiar with group matches. The Boop Memorial is a "money match", like the Super Shoot, where much of the proceeds for the match are given back to the shooters. There is also a "cash option" available. It's easy to determine the winners as there are rarely any ties. At the typical score match, there are many 50-5x's shot each match, so it's a bit more difficult. I'm not saying it can't be done, perhaps you could come up with such a program at the range where you run matches? It's been a while since I last shot a score nationals, but I've never seen a range offer a cash payout in addition to the trophies. Have you? If not, why single out Weikert?
Hal
Wayne Shaw
Active member
I agree with Hal, Weikert is the top range for matches. You are hard pressed to find a better range and better people to put it on a match.
J
Jim Pag
Guest
Hal & Wayne, If you read my post right, I wasn't bitchin about the way it was run. If you read my post I thought Mark and crew did a terrific job. I was bitching about the prizes. At all the Nationals that I have attended, the match director made calls for prize donations. Randy Jarvais, Jim Cline, and Ken Benton were the 3 match directors at Augusta, ME, Orangeburg, SC and Johnstown, NY. They made phone calls way before each of their Nationals that they hosted. They called looking for sponsors, barrel makers, scope companies, people who make custom match bullets, ect. Each of those match directors made sure that every single competitor had some sort of a prize for showing up and shooting. What did we get at Weikert, SQUAT!
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Wayne Shaw
Active member
Perhaps the Score COMMITTEE should take care of that regardless of which range is used.
Jeff Stover
Member
The rest of the story...
I agree that Weikert is one of the best ranges in the U. S. and it has the team to run a top flight match. It is not up to them to produce a prize table. Randy, Jim and others have gone above and beyond for icing on the cake for the shooters. In the past, it seems, their efforts have kept the perennial whiners away from the keyboard in the winter months.
If you were lucky to get a ‘prize’, how many of you have sent a handwritten note of thanks to the donating vendor? Or an email? Or when you see them at the range say ‘thanks for donating’? I go to shoots to compete, with the prize being winning the match. It now sounds like one goes to a match to scoop up donated goods.
Nevertheless, we have not been sitting still. 1K shooter Stanley Taylor, in just the last two weeks, has secured substantial donations that ostensibly will go to ALL SOY programs but will also extend to Nationals. He and I in early December discussed the problem of a lack of appreciation. Our solution is to attach a tag or label to each prize showing the vendor name and contact info to make it as easy as possible for the recipient to follow through. Stanley works for Douglas Barrels and has an excellent relationship with many in the benchest cottage industry.
Also, in the last month Boyd Allen (IBS Editor and Exec VP) and I discussed ways for us to use our partnership with accurateshooter.com to showcase donating vendors. The companies that donate do not donate valuable merchandise or services to please the hungry wolves. They do it purely as part of their advertising and PR budget.
So we are not sitting on our asses.
By the way, yes, I live about an hour from Weikert. I am not sure what I was doing that weekend (I would glad to be impeached. Please). As some may recall, when the 2017 Score Nationals were held we did not yet have an IBS Editor hired. When Boyd came on board I was able to get him to assemble-after the shoot-a credible Nationals report for the IBS website. That alone, however, was not enough to make it work. Webmaster Jane Dewees had hours in getting it properly posted at that time. Related, we just signed a major contract with a web development company which will give us a back office structure to make it much easier to maintain and update our website.
I will be glad to discuss the issues in this thread with any IBS member. I am at jstover33@comcast.net or a call on my cell 570-660-6102.
I will not engage further on this thread. That is a fool’s errand.
Jeff Stover
IBS President
I agree that Weikert is one of the best ranges in the U. S. and it has the team to run a top flight match. It is not up to them to produce a prize table. Randy, Jim and others have gone above and beyond for icing on the cake for the shooters. In the past, it seems, their efforts have kept the perennial whiners away from the keyboard in the winter months.
If you were lucky to get a ‘prize’, how many of you have sent a handwritten note of thanks to the donating vendor? Or an email? Or when you see them at the range say ‘thanks for donating’? I go to shoots to compete, with the prize being winning the match. It now sounds like one goes to a match to scoop up donated goods.
Nevertheless, we have not been sitting still. 1K shooter Stanley Taylor, in just the last two weeks, has secured substantial donations that ostensibly will go to ALL SOY programs but will also extend to Nationals. He and I in early December discussed the problem of a lack of appreciation. Our solution is to attach a tag or label to each prize showing the vendor name and contact info to make it as easy as possible for the recipient to follow through. Stanley works for Douglas Barrels and has an excellent relationship with many in the benchest cottage industry.
Also, in the last month Boyd Allen (IBS Editor and Exec VP) and I discussed ways for us to use our partnership with accurateshooter.com to showcase donating vendors. The companies that donate do not donate valuable merchandise or services to please the hungry wolves. They do it purely as part of their advertising and PR budget.
So we are not sitting on our asses.
By the way, yes, I live about an hour from Weikert. I am not sure what I was doing that weekend (I would glad to be impeached. Please). As some may recall, when the 2017 Score Nationals were held we did not yet have an IBS Editor hired. When Boyd came on board I was able to get him to assemble-after the shoot-a credible Nationals report for the IBS website. That alone, however, was not enough to make it work. Webmaster Jane Dewees had hours in getting it properly posted at that time. Related, we just signed a major contract with a web development company which will give us a back office structure to make it much easier to maintain and update our website.
I will be glad to discuss the issues in this thread with any IBS member. I am at jstover33@comcast.net or a call on my cell 570-660-6102.
I will not engage further on this thread. That is a fool’s errand.
Jeff Stover
IBS President
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J
Jim Pag
Guest
What you don't realize Mr. Stover is that quite a few shooters show up for a match like this for the prizes. It gives them an incentive for traveling hundreds of miles to win what, A 5 dollar piece of wood and recognition for a weekend. There are people in this sport that compete for different reasons. Some are fierce competitors and all they focus on is winning while others don't feel that they are good enough to win, but just like to shoot. You don't realize how many people say to me that one of the reasons I'm going is there giving out prizes. Is that a bad thing? Are you going to chastise them for thinking like that? Hell you have to attract as many shooters as you can, anyway you can or else this whole thing is going in the direction that it's on. I honestly don't see this sport growing. It takes a lot of time and money. How is a guy in his 20's, 30's or 40's with a wife, kids, car payments, mortgage payments and up to his teeth in debt, going to find the time and money to compete?
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Wayne Shaw
Active member
And here all this time I thought the reason to go to a shoot, was to shoot.
J
Jim Pag
Guest
Well nowadays what it costs to shoot, a little incentive goes a long way for some people.
National match
There are a lot of good points in this thread about what one can or cant do. I personally took the time and asked the people we (the shooters) support to give back and promote some of their new products or proven products as either an advertisement or token of appreciation. Jeff hit the nail on the head, HOW MANY PEOPLE TOOK THE TIME TO THANK THE PEOPLE THEY RECIEVED SOMETHING FROM? It does take time other than the day before a match to ask for donations and plan out exactly what is needed for a prize table and that extra work every match director might not have the time to put in to get this accomplished. Some vendors are willing and able to give freely and some you have to SELL them on why it is a good idea to give something for FREE and use the word of mouth form of advertisement. I CAN TELL YOU FROM EXPERIENCE, IF YOU THANK THEM , IT IS MUCH EASIER THE NEXT TIME I ASK FOR A DONATION! If anyone wants to see just what you can achieve by asking and creating new ideas and or excitement in both the vendor and shooters eyes, pay close attention to what Ronnie Milford and myself have in store this year for the IBS Southeast region. We will be giving away a complete 30 BR ready to shoot off 100% donations! There will be an enormous prize table as well at the awards banquet in Ashe County in October. I hope EVERYONE that wants to be a part of this will come shoot with us and enjoy OUR shooting sport!
There are a lot of good points in this thread about what one can or cant do. I personally took the time and asked the people we (the shooters) support to give back and promote some of their new products or proven products as either an advertisement or token of appreciation. Jeff hit the nail on the head, HOW MANY PEOPLE TOOK THE TIME TO THANK THE PEOPLE THEY RECIEVED SOMETHING FROM? It does take time other than the day before a match to ask for donations and plan out exactly what is needed for a prize table and that extra work every match director might not have the time to put in to get this accomplished. Some vendors are willing and able to give freely and some you have to SELL them on why it is a good idea to give something for FREE and use the word of mouth form of advertisement. I CAN TELL YOU FROM EXPERIENCE, IF YOU THANK THEM , IT IS MUCH EASIER THE NEXT TIME I ASK FOR A DONATION! If anyone wants to see just what you can achieve by asking and creating new ideas and or excitement in both the vendor and shooters eyes, pay close attention to what Ronnie Milford and myself have in store this year for the IBS Southeast region. We will be giving away a complete 30 BR ready to shoot off 100% donations! There will be an enormous prize table as well at the awards banquet in Ashe County in October. I hope EVERYONE that wants to be a part of this will come shoot with us and enjoy OUR shooting sport!
I don't think you understood my post, Jim. I'm calling you out personally, as you give SQUAT back to this sport. You roam the countryside shooting matches, that wouldn't be possible without the generosity of the Trutt's, and Boop's of the world. You then have the audacity to come onto a public forum and complain that you didn't receive any presents when you showed up. You sound like a toddler at Christmas, pounding the floor in a temper tantrum because Santa didn't bring you the right color truck.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for prize tables and drawings, but again, it takes a volunteer (or multiple volunteers) to make this happen. Like you, Jim Cline is certainly not known to bite his tongue, but unlike you, he's willing to step up to the plate, and take action, when he sees something he feels could be done better. I respect him for that. Thank you Jim, and the others that have donated their time and money to making a great prize drawing at the 2018 Score Nationals a reality.
J
Jim Pag
Guest
You know something Hal, I traveled 1200 miles to shoot at Weikert, spent all that money on gas, tolls, and food. Spent money on camping fees at the range, spent money for registration for shooting 2 days, spent money on eats next door, but I don't give nothing back to this sport? I spend money just about every weekend just to shoot. I guess all the ranges let me shoot for free. I guess I send an invisible check to Joan for my membership in the IBS every year since 2012. Call up Kenny Benton over at Pine Tree in NY or Reed Garfield or Doc Sargent in VT and ask all 3 of those guys the things that I've done for them. Last time at the States in VT, I spent hours in the middle of the night no less, labeling targets for both days so when Doc got there they were done. He never asked me I just did it. Ask Randy Jarvais or Rich Suhie if I pitch in when I'm over in Augusta or Southington, CT when those guy's are running a match. I play security guard at every range that I go to so that each competitor feels safe to leave their stuff there because I stay in my dinky motorhome at each range that lets me. So if you think that I don't contribute anything to the sport, then you have your head up your ass. Then you said that I complained that I didn't get a prize. I was complaining that there weren't prizes as a whole for everyone, NOT JUST ME. I could give a rat's rear end about prizes. I have more sht at my house than ten shooters combined. At the 100-200 Nationals in Johnstown last year, I gave my prize that I won,( a set of Harrell's rings) away to Wayne France. Do you know how many shooters weren't happy over at Weikert, ALOT! Bottom line that range caters to groupers, not score shooters. Score shooters will always be second rate over at that range. I was told that by many old time score shooters. Hell they even had the wrong scoring program in the computer over there. It was so screwed up that 4 of our shooters, not their staff, our shooters had to manually figure out the Grand Agg totals and who came in where by adding it up with paper and pencils. If that strikes a nerve with you too bad, because some people have a hard time handling the truth. One more thing Hal. You were only half right when you said that if it wasn't for the Boops and Trutt's of the world we wouldn't have matches, IF IT WASN'T FOR THE SHOOTERS WHO TRAVEL TO THE MATCHES THERE WOULDN'T BE A MATCH EITHER! This thing of ours as us wop's say isn't a one way street.
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You're right Jim. You are under no obligation to do anything but pay your dues and match fees, just like everyone else. What I take issue with, is when you publicly trash the people that give their time to hold a match. I've talked to some shooters that were disappointed with the lack of a prize table as well. They did not however, air their grievances publicly on benchrest central. I've also talked to a couple match directors that read your comments. One responded by saying it makes him not want to run matches. The other responded with, "so, this it the thanks we get?" What purpose do you think it serves to do such?
Everyone that shoots BR for long enough will attend matches where things could have been run better, smoother, etc. The IBS is set up with discipline committee's to address any issues that may come up, whether range related, protests, etc. Did you consider taking up these issues with the Score Committee, instead of taking this route?
Everyone that shoots BR for long enough will attend matches where things could have been run better, smoother, etc. The IBS is set up with discipline committee's to address any issues that may come up, whether range related, protests, etc. Did you consider taking up these issues with the Score Committee, instead of taking this route?
J
Jim Pag
Guest
Hal if I offended anybody who is a match director I sincerely apologize. That was not my intension. Like I said before I thought Mark & crew did a splendid job of running the line and the target crew. To me Weikert is the perfect place to hold a Nationals. There are more than enough good benches, plenty of room to move around when rotating benches, oodles of parking, and eats right next door, what more can you ask for? I know what it takes to run a regular one yardage match, I see Jarvais, Bunk, and Greg Palman go thru it all the time. It takes a lot of work and thank God we have people up here to pitch in and give a hand no matter how small or big it is. Putting on a Nationals is without a doubt and even bigger chore. I guess what I was doing was to speak for all the shooters that I heard complaining about the lack of prizes. They all complain but none of them would say boo if they had a mouthful of sht. As you have figured by now that I have no problem speaking my mind. I figured that this is a forum so why not air what nobody has the balls to say. Is that a sin? From what some of the older shooters who have attended the winter meetings in the past, some tell me the same issues arise from time to time and they never get resolved. It's the same old song and dance so to speak. Maybe by me speaking up and hitting a nerve in some people maybe some of these issues will be talked about and get changed for a change. One well known shooter told me the other day on the phone, you know what's the matter with the IBS, he said the problem is it's run like a good ole' boys club instead of a business.
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Years ago, when I was president of a large local rifle and pistol club, and working very hard at that volunteer position, from time to time someone would speak to me as if I was being paid, virtually demanding something be done. This never came from one of the men or women who were or had given their time to run, and or build the club, but from someone who had not. One example was an older fellow who wanted to shoot bullseye pistol. I told him that I would be glad to tell him how to go through the necessary steps to make that happen, but that my time was already fully committed. When he understood that I was talking about him actually doing some organizing and work, he promptly turned on his heel and walked away. Clubs do not generally "need" sanctioned benchrest matches, and reliable match directors are hard to come by. Shooters might want to take this into consideration. If you want something to be done better than it is, I suggest that you volunteer to help make it that way. Phone calls soliciting prizes can be made from any location. One does not have to be where the match is being held.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Yeah but,
The person who takes up the mantle of being Match Director becomes the responsible person to serve the participants. The duty is clearly there, paid to do the job or not. Perhaps shooting fees should be increased to the point where shooters understand they are paying someone to run matches.
I say this after recently retiring as a Match Director of many years. I took on the job knowing it was like any other volunteer job, thankless. I suppose shooters think when they pay their match fee they are paying for the services necessary for running matches. Perhaps the fees aren't stout enough to cover everything. Perhaps an additional ten or fifteen dollars per shooter,per match, to pay the crew might be warranted?
I was fortunate with the last position of match director in that I got plenty of help at the matches from the competitors. That wasn't always true with the position I held prior to that.. Shooters don't see all the prep or back work that must be done to run matches, in particular, large matches. I guess I'm thinking a higher match fee or a "Crew Fee" might be a wake up call. Wouldn't be any more expensive than a round of golf or a day's ride in a motor boat, would it? Not like wearing out a grand worth of tires on the track or the gas to run the race, eh? A hundred bucks a day might have kept me interested a while longer.
That said, I still wouldn't be itnerested if it meant I had to do all of the work for a hundred bucks. I quit only because to the petty politics that arose among folks. I am now and forever more one of the competitors.
Pete
The person who takes up the mantle of being Match Director becomes the responsible person to serve the participants. The duty is clearly there, paid to do the job or not. Perhaps shooting fees should be increased to the point where shooters understand they are paying someone to run matches.
I say this after recently retiring as a Match Director of many years. I took on the job knowing it was like any other volunteer job, thankless. I suppose shooters think when they pay their match fee they are paying for the services necessary for running matches. Perhaps the fees aren't stout enough to cover everything. Perhaps an additional ten or fifteen dollars per shooter,per match, to pay the crew might be warranted?
I was fortunate with the last position of match director in that I got plenty of help at the matches from the competitors. That wasn't always true with the position I held prior to that.. Shooters don't see all the prep or back work that must be done to run matches, in particular, large matches. I guess I'm thinking a higher match fee or a "Crew Fee" might be a wake up call. Wouldn't be any more expensive than a round of golf or a day's ride in a motor boat, would it? Not like wearing out a grand worth of tires on the track or the gas to run the race, eh? A hundred bucks a day might have kept me interested a while longer.
That said, I still wouldn't be itnerested if it meant I had to do all of the work for a hundred bucks. I quit only because to the petty politics that arose among folks. I am now and forever more one of the competitors.
Pete
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Boyd Allen
Active member
My point was not that match directors or club officials are above criticism, but rather to the issue of how that might best be done, and perhaps the tone.IMO there are a lot of things that are better handled away from public forums, and with some attention to diplomacy. When I held the position that I wrote about I would always go out of my way to be helpful, with the exception of when I found myself dealing with an unnecessarily abrasive, or confrontational sort. It has been my observation that, as the saying goes, that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Back when I ran meetings, if someone came to intentionally upset people and "blow up" the meeting with a bombastic approach I made my personal mission that he would leave upset, utterly frustrated, and having gotten nothing for his effort. If you reward bad behavior it will proliferate.