USA Scoreline Rules

C

cris

Guest
As we move into a new indoor season for some of our shooters and following up to 2013, a discussion of USA Scoreline rules and format are in order.

For 2012, we had a best 9 of 15 scores format broken down to 2 half year time frames. The resulting best scores gave an aggregate score which was easy to understand.

Some have expressed a desire to be able to shoot more, a best 15 of 21 scores format with an aggregate score. Another suggestion was for unlimited scores with the lowest 3 scores thrown out and an averaged result.

Some like the half year time frames to maintain interest, change equipment, etc. Others favor a full year venue making averaging as fair as possible, like some rimfire organizations.

Sanctioned match directors and shooters, please respond.
 
Obviously, it will be an unlimited number of scores with a specified number of throw outs with averaging or a best out of format with an aggregate score.

Going for a full year or splitting it up by year half or quarters is another issue on the table.
 
Steve,
IR50/50 Unlimited(rimfire org) uses a format that works well and is the simplest to calculate- Unlimited number of targets, keep the top 12 for the agg, top score 3000-300X. I found it a great incentive back when I was shooting RF to shoot as many targets as possible to knock those bad targets off the bottom of the list. We could lower the number of targets if too few people have the opportunity to shoot 12 targets and could always increase it as the sport gains in popularity and places to shoot.

As far as the full year vs. splitting it up, I think we should make it the full year for now. My reasoning is that with so few ranges and matches available, shooters will have a better opportunity to increase their aggs over the full year.

I'd like to throw another idea out there. I've talked to some of the guys I shoot with about shooting some 3-gun matches, one target each with LV, HV and Open class rifles for a 3-gun agg. LV could shoot all three, HV could shoot Open, allowing folks with just one or two of the rifles to compete. We could incorporate these scores into the respective Scorelines for each class, or have a separate 3-gun Scoreline. Hmmm, sounds like IR50/50 rules there, too....but they seem to work!
My .02 worth,
Todd
 
Steve,

As I said when you and I had talked, I'm in favor of doing everything Todd said above with nothing more to add. And I do support Todd's argument for only considering the best 9 targets (for now) rather than 12, which would result in a top score of 2250-225X, for the exact same reason.

Enough said,

Dave Shattuck
 
Todd and Dave,

The unlimited number of targets is a good idea and provides maximum flexibility to those who shoot frequently. Using the best 9 or 12 scores, allows those that do not shoot as frequently a way to join in as well.

A 3 gun agg is another good idea. I hope those rimfire guys don't mind us borrowing their ideas. Could be any 3 rifle classes.

The full year time frame can be done but some break at some point might be good. This would allow shooters to re-group, change equipment, fix things and anything else. It would also allow new shooters a place to jump in. Might also be a time to give out a prize or 2 from some of our new sponsors.
 
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cris said:
Todd and Dave,


The full year time frame can be done but some break at some point might be good. This would allow shooters to re-group, change equipment, fix things and anything else. It would also allow new shooters a place to jump in. Might also be a time to give out a prize or 2 from some of our new sponsors.
Click to expand...

Steve,
I don't see any need for a break. If you make a change or fix something hopefully it is for the better, your scores go up, and the bad targets fall off the bottom faster. New shooters could jump in anytime, and they do in Rimfire. You could award those prizes from the "new sponsers" at some midpoint, but keep the agg going. You need to leave the chance of a perfect agg within reach, and lets face it...it's going to be very hard to shoot 9 or 12 250's in half a season, if at all!!
Todd
 
The reason for splitting the USA Scoreline into 2 seasons has to do with weather and the need to accommodate those shooting indoors during the November through April time frame and moving outdoors from May through the end of October.

Those in warmer locales will simply have 2 outdoor seasons.

A best 9 aggregate seems to have the most approval but making it a best 9 of some number of targets limits those that have and take the opportunity to shoot more often. Once they reach their maximum, they feel that things have ended for them. This format is not perfect, much easier to submit a best 9 aggregate when you shoot a larger number of targets than just the mandatory 9, however it is always a compromise. This will also reduce the motivation to "cherry pick" those scores that are submitted.

Having 9 scores of 250 over a 6 month indoor season has already been done but to do that during an outdoor season should present a challenge.

Hopefully, we will continue this discussion so that everyone has some input.
 
This is tough one if one wants to shoot 3 classes in 6 months. Example: if we hold one match per month one could not do it in 6 months. If we hold a double match that same day it can be done. Then finding those that share your same interest or willing to stay and share equipment. A 3 gun would be a better option for those intending to shoot 3 classes, possible taking your best 3 gun match score out of 3 attempts, that takes care of 3 months and you would still be able to get 9 cards in a single class the remaining 3 months left for the 6 month split shooting one match a month. I'm out of breath.

Regards,
Joe
 
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The scoreline format works with the best 9 of 15 and is the best format in the game. The simplest solution, one that easy to do, is to have a scoreline 2 and or scoreline 3. It would take a one line sentence in the rules saying that a shooter after completing Scoreline one in each half of the year may then turn in a second group of 15 targets for a second scoreline match. Drop the aggregate. and just have as many matches as any competitor wants to shoot. simple short matches, where a shooter can choose to compete in a match win or loose and try again. This is the concept of shoulder to shoulder matches. A long and drawn out competition where conditions or shooter errors or equipment failures have made for a poor first 15 the shooter can start fresh. In a long drawn out competition he has little chance to recover and may not continue with no chance at the end. An example a bad round of golf is played and forgotten as the golfer shrugs and says I'll do better next time. If a new shooter joins the game he can have the shoulder to shoulder match he really came for and fire his first scoreline while others are on their second. The scores will go into a different pile but he can compare his scores under the same wind conditions and range and he is still competing with others still on their first scoreline.

If ain't broken don't fix it...... just do it more of it.

Bob Zimmerman
 
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Bob,

Having a scoreline 1, then 2, then 3 .......... is akin to having an endless round of "do overs". How would anyone compare what shooters were doing when one person is on scoreline 5 and someone else is still on scoreline 1? And, yes, shooters do compare their scores to others across the country.

Having a best 9 target aggregate without a maximum allows you to do "more of it". This is not perfect. Most likely, someone shooting 90 targets is going to have a better aggregate than someone only shooting the minimum of 9 but isn't that the way it usually is? Practice, practice, practice and having a good time.

Having it split into 2 seasons allows those that have an indoor season to continue shooting. In Houston, you don't need to shoot indoors, so you will have 2 outdoor seasons. Same way in beautiful California.

I agree with you that a simple aggregate is a better format than an average with 4 decimal places.

Thank you for your input.
 
Chris,

Two types of shooters need to be considered. The new shooter and a current shooter who has completed his score line in say HV. They are both in the same situation if the other members of the local club have completed the HV score line match. ( THERE IS LIKELY TO BE NO MORE SHOULDER TO SHOULDER COMPETITION IN THE HV CLASS ). The shooters that have finished the scoreline will have little interest in continuing with HV as the scores in the postal side will be meaningless. (Some like myself would abandon the new shooter and compete in LV or Production or some new class in the planning stage). The second group of 15 targets has nothing to do with the first set of 15 targets (if you can grasp that an aggregate has already taken place with Five 3 target matches) and that competitions at clubs shoulder to shoulder matches are often not drawn out over a whole season.

When a new shooter joins during the year he begins shooting in the Scoreline in progress The one in the first half or the one in the second half. Nothing has changed from the current rules.(EXCEPT THAT HE HAS MOST LIKELY MISSED OUT ON THE KEY ELEMENT THE SHOULDER TO SHOULDER MATCH. THE shoulder to shoulder matches at most clubs have nothing to do with the Postal 15 target aggregate as each 3 target match has a winner at the club level. The club later looks at the best of 9 in the postal aggregate of 15 targets which is secondary to growing the sport at the local level. Winning or placing in the 3 target match for many, has more value than the 15 target aggregate because the wind conditions and the range orientation are exactly same for all competitors.

The competitor who has completed the scoreline having done well or poorly, who decides to see if it is skills or his equipment that needs improvement purchases a new rifle. He is now in the worse situation , If the HV shooters have moved on to another class. He is left with no shoulder to shoulder and no way to even shoot his new rifle in a postal match until the next years scoreline. So he can plink or spend a half of a year testing pellets.

A 15 target aggregate is long enough for a postal match and when it is over, a one new can be entered if the shooters prefers to stay in the HV class and not move to LV, Open or Production. The new shooter and those wanting more HV and the guy with the new rifle all get what they want ....... shoulder to shoulder and postal competition. The fact that one or more shooter are competing in 3 target shoulder to shoulder matches at the club level has nothing to do with the fact that those on the firing line are competing in different scoreline matches. Where one 15 target aggregate has nothing to do with any other.

Win Win and one sentence gets it started now. If it does not work after this second half then we can fine tune and move forward next year. Those that are not competing in the existing first and second half aggregate will continue and those starting a second Scoreline will only have one 15 target aggregate which will have nothing to do with the ongoing 30 target aggregate. In fact all of that can stay the same and any additional 15 target aggregate scores forever can be what they are a separate competition for those who can not get enough trigger time

In my opinion the focus should be on more competition not combining groups of 15 target aggregates for a year long competition that leaves those shooters out of the year long aggregate who did not shoot the first half or for some reason did not shoot the second half or changed classes in the second half.
I

Crazy old man
 
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Bob,

The current USA Scoreline second half/season will most likely end on October 31. November 1 begins the time frame when some move their matches indoors. That is when this new format may or may not go into effect.

A best 9 aggregate allows your HV shooter to continue submitting scores during the 6 month season until he has accumulated 9 250s. Then, he can still continue while seeking to improve X count. It allows your new shooter to jump in at any time and shoot with those at your club shooting HV and not miss anything.

The USA Scoreline is not a postal match, it is a way for those shooting at different clubs across the country to compare results.

Naturally, match directors are free to do what they think is best to attract and maintain shooters in their local area. We recognize that there is no way to please everyone at a national level.

I hope you will share this "one sentence" you are looking for. We will put it into place through October 31 and see how it turns out.
 
What about the existing HV shooters who have finished the year with no place to go. We cannot compete on the score line and the new shooter has no way to compete HV shoulder to shoulder because our HV guys have finished all possible score line matches. As for me I have no way to shoot my new rifle except at local competition. I thought I did very well in explaining that it is over for our HV shooters. It is over for me with a new rifle and since the those who have completed HV will move to other classes the new guy can shoot his scoreline match but not have any shoulder to shoulder. Not good in my book. None of the 5 or 6 production class rifles can shoot due to trigger jobs or modifications or rest that they already own. None of those low cost commercial rifles can shoot in the new class either. Basically we are all done except for Lv for one shooter and the possibility of turning in scores in Open. We cam shoot local matches under club rules but not under your game. I will look at the open class rules and hope for the best.

Bob
 
Bob,

Your existing HV shooters can continue to shoot since a best 9 aggregate allows for unlimited scores during the season.

"None of the 5 or 6 production class rifles can shoot due to trigger jobs or modifications or rest that they already own." They can certainly shoot in LV, HV or Open, according to power levels.

"None of those low cost commercial rifles can shoot in the new class either."
Why not? The Hunter/Sporter class has no price limit, no restrictions on modifications, wide variety of scopes, wide variety of stocks, no weight limit and no power limit. Shooter simply needs a front bag.

"but not under your game". Not my game. We do not make rules in a vacuum but we will never make everyone happy.

Tell us, specifically, what we should do to make this better for you.
 
Steve,

I was not aware that the Current rules for HV allowed a shooter to turn in more than 15 targets in the Scoreline in progress. If that is the case I apologize for my bitching and we will keep turning in targets over the 15 we have submitted.

I have not seen the final rules on the new class and that may be a solution. My only problem with combining regulated and unregulated rifles in one class is that they will have a very slim chance of winning against the more expensive rifles. Coming against a NJR or the Air Arms 400 500 with a Hammerli Pnuema or a Maruader is not a contest. Owning and shooting the latter on the world target I can almost guarantee the results. The cost of a front leather bag and attaching some sort of block to get proper height is within a few dolloars of a cheap hoppes rest and this is a bench rest competition. If cost is the objective cost then allow the shooter to fill a sock or shot bag in a stack or on a wood base. If one looks at the most common form of front rest at any shooting range it is shot bags or cloth bags filled with sand. Many shooters choose some of the commercial cloth bags and a matching rear bag. One rarely sees a leather bag on the front. Do not force new shooters to buy anything. As to the scopes the winner of the first half production class is shooting the least expensive and lowest power scope on the line. For my shooters who do not want to purchase any thing more than what they have I will buy some cloth bags and furnish them at the matches.

The Production class at the very low end should in my opinion have the fewest rules. Unregulated factory rifle in a conventional factory stock. Factory Barrel. No internal mods, No professional trigger jobs. If a shooter owns a rest and uses no mechanical features it would be allowed. All of our rifles would meet these rules. Likely any other low end unregulated rifle would also. The Houston group had the most competitors shooting what they owned with your verbal exceptions in the First half. A Hammerli Pnuema or Maruader can also shoot in the Open class ....Good luck there. With the exception of a very fine rifle made by Tim McMurry for the most part in a 25 shot competition an unregulated gun can not compete with a regulated rifle. That is the reason people ad regulators or buy regulated rifles.

Thank you for listening and you also know how much all of us appreciate what you have done to promote Air Rifle Bench Rest Shooting. Thanks for allowing input to your tough decision on getting these entry level classes to do what they should....... bring in new shooters hook and move em up.

Bob Zimmerman
 
Bob,

With all due respect, you contradict yourself in one paragraph.

"The Production class at the very low end should in my opinion have the fewest rules. Unregulated factory rifle in a conventional factory stock. Factory Barrel. No internal mods, No professional trigger jobs. If a shooter owns a rest and uses no mechanical features it would be allowed."

Then you imply that the USFT cannot compete in the Production class when it meets all of your rules.

Rules should ALWAYS be simple and easy to understand. Exceptions lead to loopholes and it is downhill from there. Your rules have loopholes already.

What does conventional factory stock mean? If a custom stock with a 3 inch wide fore end looks kinda like the factory stock, is that legal?

What does professional trigger job mean? If it is NOT a professional trigger job, is that legal? How is a non-professional trigger job different from an internal mod? Are non-professional internal mods, like valving, porting, hammer springs and the like legal?

Must I adjust my mechanical rest before I get to the bench, can I adjust it on the bench before the start, what if my threads slip during shooting, can I adjust to get back to where I was in the beginning?

I fully understand that most air rifle shooters are NOT competitors and given that the target does not bleed, they have little interest. However, those that are competitors usually want rules that do NOT have gray areas.

We are trying to attract and recruit new shooters but to enact rules that the established base of shooters must question is counterproductive.

Give me a set of rules that is simple, easy enough for Frank Tirrell to understand and without all the loopholes and we can discuss the merits.
 
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To get this thread back on track, here is where we think things are going.

There will be 2 seasons of the USA Scoreline.

An indoor season for the northern locales. This same time frame will be for an outdoor season for others or if winter is absent again this year. September through February.

A second outdoor season for everyone. March through August.

A best 9 target format. A minimum of 9 targets are required. No maximum. The best 9 targets will result in an aggregate score. All sanctioned rifle classes will be scored separately.

Your input is needed and appreciated.
 
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Must I adjust my mechanical rest before I get to the bench, can I adjust it on the bench before the start, what if my threads slip during shooting, can I adjust to get back to where I was in the beginning?

I'm getting confused, this is a benchrest organization isn't it. I don't know of any benchrest sport that can't use an adjustable front rest.
 
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