Turning Brass During Its Life

This is what makes America a great country Al

Al Nyhus said:
Pete Wass said:
Unlike most folks, I don't place much relevence on or in brass in general. I simply consider it a container to place the things that truly matter into.
Respectfully Pete..... I couldn't disagree more. :) -Al
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Probably my experience and results are way more crude than most people. I only know what I have observed over the years. I have never been able to see where those who practically worship their brass have much better results than those who never so much as clean their necks. While I will agree that brass has to fit the chamber one is using it in, I don't see how an item that is so pliable can be considered super criticle. I have seen folks who would cull a case if they missed an x. I'll be willing to bet they culled the lot over time :p. When I first started shooting one of the better shooters among us use to tell the tale of a shooter who shot very well with cases that he had split the necks on with a hack saw to eliminate anything but priming. :eek:
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Brass Quality...

...Pete...if your experience goes back 9 or 10 years with the .30BR, then I'm guessing that you've never used anything other than Lapua brass...???
 
Pete's cases are stretching in the body. -When he squishes things back down- some of the shoulder ends up forming a longer neck. So he has to trim, ream, and turn to counter.
He might check for a ring of thinning low on the body of his cases(the point of stretch). That's eventual case failure, and one day(if reloaded enough times) he'd extract just the case head with the rest stuck in his chamber.
But it sounds like he's doin just what he needs to do.
Brass is disposable.

Now, IT AINT FLOW, it's basic reloading.
Cases that aren't stretching, that don't come out of the chamber bulging or longer than they went in, and don't have to be squished from the neck down to get the bolt closed on em(beyond normal bumping) will not naturally end up with new thickness. Brass only goes where you put it, and there is always a direct action on your part to put it there.
 
So, tell me this

mikecr said:
Pete's cases are stretching in the body. -When he squishes things back down- some of the shoulder ends up forming a longer neck. So he has to trim, ream, and turn to counter.
He might check for a ring of thinning low on the body of his cases(the point of stretch). That's eventual case failure, and one day(if reloaded enough times) he'd extract just the case head with the rest stuck in his chamber.
But it sounds like he's doin just what he needs to do.
Brass is disposable.

Now, IT AINT FLOW, it's basic reloading.
Cases that aren't stretching, that don't come out of the chamber bulging or longer than they went in, and don't have to be squished from the neck down to get the bolt closed on em(beyond normal bumping) will not naturally end up with new thickness. Brass only goes where you put it, and there is always a direct action on your part to put it there.
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Some years ago it became a normal course of events to full length size cases every time most of us re-load. We do it because if we didn't we couldn't easily close our bolts. Where are we all going wrong? I know some of the older guys only load up to where the brass starts to get tight but most of us have been way beyond that for a very long time. If the brass ain't flowing up off the web then what do you call that process? I know cases fail at the web sometimes also at the neck-shoulder junction. Is there a difference in stretch from flow? It would seem to me that the brass would have to flow forward to thin out, no?
 
Actually Kent

Kent Harshman said:
...Pete...if your experience goes back 9 or 10 years with the .30BR, then I'm guessing that you've never used anything other than Lapua brass...???
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I use Winchester, Remington and Lapua cases. I have been a pre-loader for a long time. I went to Thurmont this past week with pre-loads for three rifles for three yardages. One of the rifles I shot, a 30-284-1.650" uses Winchester cases. I now have 350 of them prepared to use. Of the origionals I made, I have only lost one to a seperated neck and it seperated because the cutter went too deep into the shoulder before I saw it happen. I used that case for three years though.

I recently made a bunch of 30-44 cases up from 308 Remington and Winchester to try to deminish internal case capscity to as near minimum as possible. It seems to be working and the brass is robust because, like the 30-284, what is left when it has been cut off is thicker than what folks have usually put to use.

This is why I am blasphemous of the Lapua religion often. I have used other stuff that works as well. Also part of the reason I think the entire subject of brass is way over blown. In my opinion, if a person uses good practices when they make their cases up, the cases will last a very long time IF they aren't abused. I have never been able to see any difference in the accuracy of the rifles I have shot over the years with the brand of case that the bullet came out of and I have shot a number of different brands from Federal American to Lake City.
 
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Pete, I wasn't suggesting anything was wrong with your process or results.
I'm trying, but not doing a good job, to steer the discussion and solutions toward the root causes of thickening necks. Al has described how he avoids it, I've described how it happens.
The whole 'flow' part throws an undefined wildcard into it, that I believe is detrimental for for any solution.

If not flow, what is it?
I would call it DISPLACEMENT
A given amount of brass occupying a certain space. With a hammer and vice you can make an airplane out of it. But it wasn't flow, and it won't fly.

If you measure brass before and after firing, with no sizing, you will see the brass is thinner after firing. The same amount of brass has expanded to cover a larger area.
When you squish it back into a smaller area it gets thicker because it's still the same amount of brass.
But the thing is, you aren't squishing it in the same ways it expanded.
You are forming new neck area, from the shoulder brass, because your FL die has too shorten stretched cases.. Or, as mentioned, if the case diameter has to be sized alot, the act of doing so will lengthen the case to the point of needing shortened at the same time. Either way this shortening happens at the shoulder and NOT the neck.
Some of this shoulder pushed back can end up new neck real estate.
So you find your necks longer, needing trimmed, and thicker at the neck shoulder junction.

But it doesn't have to be that way. Measures can be taken to avert it.
Which proves brass doesn't flow, because if it did we couldn't stop it -no matter what we did.
 
I thought I might add a photo to this interesting discussion. This piece of brass was from a batch that I just turned after finding them thicker than when I originally turned them.

I actually used an end mill to section the case, and did not get all the flashing off, particularly on the right side, plus the neck/shoulder area was distorted a bit by the mill, but I found it pretty interesting.

There was no thinning in the area where head separations normally occur, and the neck and shoulder are pretty uniform. The inside of the neck area is brighter from the turning process.

Jim

SectionedCase011copy3.jpg
 
Jim ...

That's a great photo. To my eye everything looks pretty much in sync with other photos that I've seen of cases that have been cut in half. What's your assessment of the skeletal structure ??? What did you find interesting ??? :)
 
mikecr ...

mikecr said:
Pete, I wasn't suggesting anything was wrong with your process or results.
I'm trying, but not doing a good job, to steer the discussion and solutions toward the root causes of thickening necks. Al has described how he avoids it, I've described how it happens.
The whole 'flow' part throws an undefined wildcard into it, that I believe is detrimental for for any solution.

If not flow, what is it?
I would call it DISPLACEMENT
A given amount of brass occupying a certain space. With a hammer and vice you can make an airplane out of it. But it wasn't flow, and it won't fly.

If you measure brass before and after firing, with no sizing, you will see the brass is thinner after firing. The same amount of brass has expanded to cover a larger area.
When you squish it back into a smaller area it gets thicker because it's still the same amount of brass.
But the thing is, you aren't squishing it in the same ways it expanded.
You are forming new neck area, from the shoulder brass, because your FL die has too shorten stretched cases.. Or, as mentioned, if the case diameter has to be sized alot, the act of doing so will lengthen the case to the point of needing shortened at the same time. Either way this shortening happens at the shoulder and NOT the neck.
Some of this shoulder pushed back can end up new neck real estate.
So you find your necks longer, needing trimmed, and thicker at the neck shoulder junction.

But it doesn't have to be that way. Measures can be taken to avert it.
Which proves brass doesn't flow, because if it did we couldn't stop it -no matter what we did.
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Gene Beggs seem to have slowed DISPLACEMENT on the 6mm Beggs by placing a radius on the neck of the 220 Russian at the neck/shoulder junction through reamer design. I don't know how many times I've fired my Beggs cases but I cannot remember ever having to trim them. There's growth, but it's been minute. :)
 
What does this radius look like?

abintx said:
Gene Beggs seem to have slowed DISPLACEMENT on the 6mm Beggs by placing a radius on the neck of the 220 Russian at the neck/shoulder junction through reamer design. I don't know how many times I've fired my Beggs cases but I cannot remember ever having to trim them. There's growth, but it's been minute. :)
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it's tough to visualize it. Does someone have a picture?
 
Pete ...

I don't have a picture but I do have this description probably from an article that was written on the 6mm Beggs:

"Gene Beggs of Odessa, TX decided to make things very simple for the shooter who wants optimum accuracy with the 220 Russian case.

His case design is basically the 220 Russian cartridge with the shoulder radius changed to mimic the PPC case design. Standard 220 Russian case has a .125 shoulder radius. The 20/22/6 Beggs case has a .060 radius, same as the 6PPC.

According to Mr. Beggs, the change in shoulder radius promotes ease of bolt lift, and zero case growth even with excessive pressures.

Dave Kiff at PTG and JGS have reamers available for a neck turned version, or the "no neck turn" in 20, 22, and 6mm. Lonnie Hummel at the Hornady Custom Shop has manufactured close to 250 custom sizing dies for the Beggs cases. The die utilizes bushings so you can decide on which caliber (20, 22, 6, etc.). Gene Beggs has the dies available for purchase at $106.00 delivered to your door."

I'm sorry but I didn't document the source on this one. :) Art
 
Pete ...

He had talked at one time of developing a 30 Beggs but after repeated attempts of asking him when he might do it I gave up. Seems he's plenty busy with the 220 Beggs, 6mm Beggs, his new stock, attending matches, and the tunnel that there's no time left for 30 development. :( Art
 
Pete Wass said:
Gene tackle the 30 BR someday. Perhaps his view on it might change things some.
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30BR works just fine with no growth nor thickening. I could tell you how to eliminate growth, thickening AND 'the click' but you wouldn't like it! :)

Also 30X47L, 308Win, .308-.200, 30-06AI, 300WSM, 6X47L, 6BR, 6PPC, 22BR and 22PPC short. That's all I KNOW work because I shoot 'em.

.243AI doesn't work IME. I tried hard. Another problem child is the 22-250, AI'd or not. The 22-250 doesn't work well because of excess body taper and the AI'd version doesn't work because of shoulder bounce.

There's no mysticism just FIT and SET coupled with a well designed case. :)

A properly fitted full length die couple with proper setup and maintenance gives similar results in all variations.

I'm getting ready (hopefully) to resurrect the thread "Al's 6X47L" wherein I document a bunch of my ideas. I talked to Neil yesterday, he's finally back from vacation and starting my 6X47L dies......


Yayyyyy



al
 
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