Tuning Problems,When It Just Won't Work.

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
One thing that was evident out of this week ends Match at New Braunfels was many shooters, who normally can keep a Rifle shooting, just had things "blow up" Sunday.
It was a really weird weather pattern.It was a little cool,with the humidity in the 50 and 60 percent range. The wind started quatering in, and then came in straight,and just about everything I tried didn't seem to work. Stuck with a bullet hole+ worth of verticle the entire afternoon.
This is one of the few times where I could not get the Rifle shooting with my Tuner. Every time I went to the line, I tried something a little different, playing a little with the load and the tuner. I was just lucky in the Two Gun that other shooters were having a equally tough time.
Many of the "experts" who come on this Forum promising a cure all for tuning problems, need to understand that sometimes, the combination just goes South, and you are just out of luck. You just do the best you can and try to avoid any lethal mistakes. It doesn't mean you need to toss everything away and start over, and it doesn't mean you have suddenly forgot how to make bullets touch.
It simply means that Benchrest is, and always will be, a tough game. That is why you hear shooters say, "if you can't take loosing,then you might consider doing something else". You are going to loose one heck of alot more than you are going to win.......jackie
 
Jackie, I'll be the first to admit, staying in tune is a B****. But IMO there are times that tuning windows are out somewhere in left field. We had that happen one time at Fairchance at a Nationals.

One thing I found about tuners is that they must have sufficient weight to work in all conditions. Again, IMO, that would be a tuner of 10 oz or more for starters. A light weight tuner will just not give a wide enough "window" sometimes. A symptom of this problem is when a tuner equipped barrel will go in and out of tune at environmental conditions that a few days before worked fine.

One of your fellow Texicans had that happen to him at this years Cactus.
 
Funny thing Jackie,

When I started tuning my rifle I listened to your comments, filed them away for reference and then worked through the tuning in a logical progression changing one variable at a time. As it worked out I ended up pretty much right where you said ought to shoot with a Kreiger/68 Ultra/N133 combination.

My point is, even across in this corner of the world the same basic principles apply and similar loads work and yet a subtle change in the local conditions can make that same load go off tune. The loads will be similar half a world away but might not work one weekend later !!!

Bryce
 
I guess my question is - -

jackie schmidt said:
One thing that was evident out of this week ends Match at New Braunfels was many shooters, who normally can keep a Rifle shooting, just had things "blow up" Sunday.
It was a really weird weather pattern.It was a little cool,with the humidity in the 50 and 60 percent range. The wind started quatering in, and then came in straight,and just about everything I tried didn't seem to work. Stuck with a bullet hole+ worth of verticle the entire afternoon.
This is one of the few times where I could not get the Rifle shooting with my Tuner. Every time I went to the line, I tried something a little different, playing a little with the load and the tuner. I was just lucky in the Two Gun that other shooters were having a equally tough time.
Many of the "experts" who come on this Forum promising a cure all for tuning problems, need to understand that sometimes, the combination just goes South, and you are just out of luck. You just do the best you can and try to avoid any lethal mistakes. It doesn't mean you need to toss everything away and start over, and it doesn't mean you have suddenly forgot how to make bullets touch.
It simply means that Benchrest is, and always will be, a tough game. That is why you hear shooters say, "if you can't take loosing,then you might consider doing something else". You are going to loose one heck of alot more than you are going to win.......jackie
Click to expand...

Why do use guys Keep fooling with N-133??? I would be-a-looking somewhere else for more stability. Considering what has been reported here about H-4198, Why on earth do you keep foolin with Viht?
 
Pete evidently you...

haven't played around with "Blasto 98" or 748 on a really hot day! You'd give your left xxx for some 133 then.

Jim
 
Personally, I have found that 133 in certain conditions is hard to beat, it will shoot better than almost anything I have tried. At other times there are better powders like 8208 which seems to be friendler all the way around, although not always the best all the time. The only way to know is to try several powders and get to know how they react in different conditions. I have never used a tuner but I suspect you can fine tune what ever works best as far as load is concerned from there. I have been playing with 322 lately and it seems to do well with tune and is less sensitve to temp swings but when it goes out of tune it goes out big time. There is no free lunch in this game, you have to do your homework and be willing to experiment and learn. Some times a big change in seating depth makes all the difference even though the day before it wouldn't shoot at that depth. I have a lot of respect for the guys who have this knowledge from experience and will change the load after things go south and continue to finish in the top five, they know when it is time to stop tuning and when it is time to change the whole program.
 
My efforts are to

Not have to worry about the ambient. When one is concerned about Aggs, Averages, why do small holes in optimum conditions become such an attraction? Forget the sometimes best, go for the overall. It seems to me that there are some powders that are like that woman one can never realy ever win the heart of. Better to move on the one that one can win the heart of.

I should never comment here but I must say I don't see much effort to try to find powders that are more predictable and less finicky. It seems like fooling with arrel that "Wants to shoot" all the time. Some days it works the very best and some days it just won't shoot, no matter what one does. Better to move on.
 
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Excellent discussion...maybe the T322 tha Lou M. is trying to get manufactured will be the "truth serum" for the 6ppc..:D
 
Pete, and Others

Why do I insist on using 133.???
Because on a daily basis, it is the most consistant powder I have ever found when it comes to shooting winning aggs.. Just because I loose the tune on one Sunday Afternoon does not mean I will forget about the multitudes of times that 133 has helped me stay competitive.
Most of the shooters who complain about 133 simply do not know how to make it work.
Everybody is all goo-goo over the possibility of getting some real "T". But do remember, while many shooters shot quite well with "T", a large number also shot rather poorly with it. Probably about the same percentage can be said for 133.
I can remember one of the last Crawfish Matches that was held in Louisianna. Quite a few shooters came down, with "T" in hand. By the end of the first day, most were trying to haggle some 133 out of their friends.
In the Gulf Coast Region, we have ranges that vary from the wet humidity of Houston, to the dry arid air of Midland, and everything in between. (Texas is a big State).
Many of us make 133 work in all of those locations.
The point of my post was an attempt to inform novice shooters that this game is tough, and keeping a competitive tune is paramount in achieving your goals. But sometimes, it just doesn't happen, and you have to learn from the situations, while not driving yourself to insanity........jackie.
.
 
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Sorry I butted in here

I shouldn't have said anything but the one thing that frustrates me more than anything else is when I repeatedly keep trying to get different results from trying the same thing (The definition of Insanity). When I see it anywhere it frustrates me the same way. I suppose those who are trying to make things happen feel the same as I do but, I must say, I would feel less frustrated if someone reported that because they couldn't make 133 work they tried Rice Crispies or almost anything else.

Perhaps the not being able to find the tune one match out of 8 is an acceptable set of circumstances. It becomes like one bad group in any agg I guess.

At any rate, I am not going to have any more to say about the subject.
 
Pete, I don't think anyone is wrong here, we just have different expectations and different ways of dealing with it. I would like to stick to one powder and probably could, but I have had it that I struggled to stay mid pack and wondered why I couldn't shoot better and then changed to a different powder and instantly started printing readable groups that were half the size. If I had done it earlier I would have done better. For all the the people who might want to go and compete internationally, remember that you have to buy your powder and primers when you get there and you will have to learn what combo will compete quickly and its peculiar traits to the climate you are now in. Spending lots of money on a big trip to learn the game over isn't for everybody but if you practice at home it might help. If all you plan on doing is regional matches than one powder may be the way to go. If I recall correctly didn't someone at one of the big matches in the sw change his load to 4895 powder that he bought at a local store and then proceeded to win while most struggled. Lester Bruno did this a few years ago at Kelbly's and proceeded to win there also if i recall correctly he went to t32.
 
Jackie

Another option is that the rifle was perfectly tuned, but the conditions on the range had a vertical component--I have experienced that before.

You are 100% correct in tuners will not cure all ails--I have been told recently that I will be amazed once I have a rifle tuned with a tuner--on a left to right blow--I will no longer have to hold left and up.

Nope--the physical characteristics of flight are still involved--left to right blow on RH twist rifle will go right and down and vice versa for right to left blow.

The straight .9 rim fire barrel has not worked out well with tuner on it. the more violent vibration of the center fire rifle makes the tuner super sensitive.

The Shade tree tuner on a conventional taper barrel is working well--more on this when I have statistical results.

Jim
 
And oh by-the-way...

Even through his frustration on Sunday, Jackie won the Blue Bonnet overall.:)
 
virg said:
Even through his frustration on Sunday, Jackie won the Blue Bonnet overall.:)
Click to expand...

If you listened to Jackie talking about how bad the tune was on his rifle you would have thought that he was shooting .3s and .4s and crawled out of New Braunfels in last place.
But he pretty well came back from a slow start on saturday morning and wiped us.
Ted
 
You guys should take up flying small lightweight R/C airplanes for a few years. You’ll quickly find that that there’s nothing unexplained out there.
 
Jackie's first group at 200 yards on Sunday morning was 1.4xx". Being Jackie, he didn't whine or give up or start blasting away at his targets in a fit of anger. He just settled down and won the two gun. There's a lot to be learned from his performance, and not just on the target.
 
Try burying the offending rifle muzzle down in a convenient trash container. It must remain there for at least one photo opportunity.
 
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