Tuners....To anyone who is interested...

I think you just want to B**** really.

Call a sweet spot what you will. Call it the place a tennis racket where you can really whack the ball if you want. I don't care. What I call a sweet spot is the spot where I get the best accuracy (groups, so it's really precision, I mean let's get really technical)

As I have said before, I'm not an engineer. I never wanted to be an I'm glad I'm not. As matter of fact I don't even know if you are. I guess you can't go back to another post, so we have to explain the 3/8" rod to you again. Put it in a vise, make it vibrate and get an X pattern. You can translate that to a rifle barrel now. The idea is to move the center of the X to the muzzle. Can that be done? Is it done? I don't know. You would have to have sensitive equipment to determine that. But something happens, and you're discussing this with the former biggest critic of tuners in the game. Is it a miracle? No, but it will gain you a few points which may be all you need.

What deflects if you don't do this (assuming we can)? It's the barrel, but guess where the bullet is riding. So, if you deflect your car into a ditch, you end up in the ditch by default.

If we're going to play kindergarten games, let's just not play, or go play with someone else. If everything has to be explained to you in detail before your will admit to recognizing it, it's really not worth. You play your game, I'll play mine. By the way, the only time we played together your agg was 1444 and mine 2079, and I was busy running the match.

By the way, don't assume that you're attacking Calfee's beliefs by attacking mine. They are not exactly parallel (no pun intended).
 
Beau..

I probably deserved that but, what do you think about the number of sweet spots verses the number of shots necessary to find those spots?
 
Pacecil
There are a large number of sweetspots but only one place that is truly the best.
Bill gave some of us some tests and when using those tests you can see if your at the right point or not.
When Bill said bouncing off of the parallel node and the rifle won't wait for me he said that for a reason.
If you would have remained curious instead of furious you would have those tests.
Waterboy
 
I said the otherday that the node thing went over my head. today I think it's right. I think what I was doing is a differnt way to get somewhere. and Beau heres how I found out you did not need to test ammo. I had been buying team from whoever had it in stock. I didn't care the lot or speed, if you didn't order it that way whoever had it in stock was out in 2 days. well I had all this team here some shot great some shot ok after one trip to the range. the ammo was seperated into saved ammo and practice ammo. wether I adjusted as a shooter to the ammo or my rifles did I have no idea, but once I shot the not so good ammo daily the scores went up. either the barrel seasoned to the ammo or I adjusted to how it shot. and even with the ok ammo I rarely got flyers. that's not to say one didn't go into the 8 ring when I miss read the wind, but the flyers were nonexitant.
 
pacecil said:
I probably deserved that but, what do you think about the number of sweet spots verses the number of shots necessary to find those spots?
Click to expand...

Pacecil,

Let me define sweet spot as I see it; consider it a qualifier. Remember I am not an engineer, this is my opinion, that has been influenced by my own experience, as well as the opinions and writings of others including Bill Calfee and yourself.

The sweet spot is the spot that, when everything is adjusted correctly, the tuner will allow the the rifle system to achieve maximum potential accuracy. One assumption made: The tuner works. Under that assumption, that point should be the center of the X in the vibration pattern. If I recall correctly an X shaped pattern indicates a sine wave. I think Varmint Al's depictions also indicate a sine wave. If this is unclear at all, then what I am saying there is only one true sweet spot (in my opinion) and that is the point the wave stops closest to the muzzle.

If you put a tuner (weight) on flush with the muzzle or behind the muzzle, the mass itself will slow the barrel and most likely produce a stabilizing effect that will increase accuracy; however, there is no or very little "tuning" effect. If you add weight to a tuner mounted in front of the muzzle, even though it does not need the weight, you can emulate a sweet spot in the same manner as putting a tuner flush with or behind the muzzle. However, you have not found THE sweet spot (again in reference to my definition).

The number of sweet spots versus the number of shots to find those spots. As I said, I believe there is only one. However, the number of shots is dependent upon the shooter's experience and what he/she is willing to accept. If you have found a pseudo sweet spot, you will find that your rifle is a little unpredictable in a match.

To find the one true sweet spot, you have to know first which way to go. That again will depend on the shooter's experience and also his/her experience with a particular rifle system. To truly find the center, if you ever can without very sensitive equipment, would take more ammo than I would care to shoot. Obviously, to find every pseudo sweet spot as well would take a fortune in ammo. However, I can get close enough to what I want with about 100 shots which includes those that I shoot second guessing. Bill Calfee can get close enough with about 10-15 shots. I don't think he second guesses.

Some things to consider. My rifle has no extra weight; it doesn't need it. It will shoot tiny, almost bullet hole size, ten shot groups with several different ammo lots; if it does not produce high scores in matches, it is not the fault of the rifle or the ammo. I have never noticed a flipper with good ammo, but you can't tune bad ammo to be good. The tuner only allows you to get the potential from the ammo; nothing more.
 
Beau said:
, but you can't tune bad ammo to be good. The tuner only allows you to get the potential from the ammo; nothing more.
Click to expand...
That depends upon the reason the ammo was considered as "not good". Off ballance or out of true bullets? You are correct, tuning won't help. Excess velocity variation? It's quite possible that a correctly tuned barrel WILL make it shoot much better.
 
Vibe said:
That depends upon the reason the ammo was considered as "not good". Off ballance or out of true bullets? You are correct, tuning won't help. Excess velocity variation? It's quite possible that a correctly tuned barrel WILL make it shoot much better.
Click to expand...

Vibe
I have used my tuners to correct for huge velocity variations and when you switch back to normal loads you end up with two distinct groups.
Waterboy
 
Lynn said:
Vibe
I have used my tuners to correct for huge velocity variations and when you switch back to normal loads you end up with two distinct groups.
Waterboy
Click to expand...

Since one would think that "Normal loads" would fall under a subset within the range of "huge velocity variations" that is a very interesting statement.
 
Vibe said:
Since one would think that "Normal loads" would fall under a subset within the range of "huge velocity variations" that is a very interesting statement.
Click to expand...

Vibe
You are correct.You can create convergence but only on two narrow velocity windows.If those two windows are large in velocity spread you get nothing but vertical.
If you remember back to the post about 42 yard testing I said you would get two extremely good groups at 50 yards if you were to tune for convergance at 42 yards.The groups wouldn't be inches apart just fractions of an inch apart but nonetheless seperated.
To my way of looking at this your gun will now shoot all velocities of ammo well provided those subsets of ammo are very uniform.It is also my opinion they will group at different points on the target but they will group very well.
In centerfire if you switch back and forth between fitted neck brass and brass with plenty of clearance you get the same results.
If you pace your firing of rounds then every once in awhile wait a long period of time you also see two distinct groups at the target.

As a side question if we look at the wave shape and take away the troughs and peaks we get what looks like three lines with two parallel and one out of phase.Do you see what I am talking about on this?
Waterboy
 
Simple Trajectory Charts.

22lr-trajectory-50yd-zero.png

FLIGHT PATH.... This chart shows the slower bullet actually travels a higher path than the faster bullet for them both to hit the same 50 yard zero. It is clear that the flexible barrel's muzzle must launch the two bullets of different velocity at slightly different elevations for there to be no vertical spread at the 50 yard target.

rigid-muzzle-trajectory.png

RIGIDLY FIX MUZZLE.... If the same two velocity shots were fired from a rigidly fixed muzzle with the exact same launch angle then there would be a vertical spread with the slower bullet striking low by 0.24 inches.

BUILT IN FLEXIBILITY.... The reverse taper barrel design is more flexible than a straight cylindrical barrel. The advantage of the flexible design is that it allows the barrels muzzle to be pointing at increasing elevations for slower bullets.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al
coyotel.gif
 
Varmint Al said:
22lr-trajectory-50yd-zero.png

FLIGHT PATH.... This chart shows the slower bullet actually travels a higher path than the faster bullet for them both to hit the same 50 yard zero. It is clear that the flexible barrel's muzzle must launch the two bullets of different velocity at slightly different elevations for there to be no vertical spread at the 50 yard target.

rigid-muzzle-trajectory.png

RIGIDLY FIX MUZZLE.... If the same two velocity shots were fired from a rigidly fixed muzzle with the exact same launch angle then there would be a vertical spread with the slower bullet striking low by 0.24 inches.

BUILT IN FLEXIBILITY.... The reverse taper barrel design is more flexible than a straight cylindrical barrel. The advantage of the flexible design is that it allows the barrels muzzle to be pointing at increasing elevations for slower bullets.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al
coyotel.gif
Click to expand...

Right on Al, Thanks for posting.
Fred K
 
Fred,

You say the paths don't intersect. You never really said if you accept that the slower bullets will shoot lower. However, if you accept that, then look at picture #1. For the slower bullet to hit lower, it must cross the path of the faster bullet. That's obvious. That's what I said earlier.

The second picture is from rigidly fixed barrel. Barrel time does not come into play. It is depicted as expected.
 
could this be the reason for the 42 yrd test distance..is that the point where the two speeds intersect.:confused:
 
They only intersect because of....

gambler said:
could this be the reason for the 42 yrd test distance..is that the point where the two speeds intersect.:confused:
Click to expand...

The upper plot.... They only look the same, after 42 yards, because the ballistic tables use 2 place accuracy and the round-off of the numbers look like the values are the same. If more accuracy was available with the ballistic calculations they would only intersect at 50 yards. Close, but no cigar!
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al
coyotel.gif
 
Beau said:
Fred,

You say the paths don't intersect. You never really said if you accept that the slower bullets will shoot lower. However, if you accept that, then look at picture #1. For the slower bullet to hit lower, it must cross the path of the faster bullet. That's obvious. That's what I said earlier.

The second picture is from rigidly fixed barrel. Barrel time does not come into play. It is depicted as expected.
Click to expand...
The first illustration REQUIRES that the node have an X shape , the 2nd llustration is what happens when the launch angles are truely parallel.
It's the point I've been trying to make for YEARS, to no avail.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you have a rimfire tuner and it has 6 sweet spots... and you add weight so it has 10 sweet spots.... could you possibly add enough weight so it has 100 sweet spots.... If that is the case could more weight be added to have 1000 sweet spots? When doing this... are the not so sweet spots between the 1000 sweet spots really not sweet or sorta not sweet? Can you "Smooth" out that transition from one sweet to another sweet so it just all looks sweet? I have to ask because I have only used centerfire tuners on cut rifled barrels and I need to build one for rimfire.

Just thinking really loud.

Paul
 
Beau said:
Pacecil,

Let me define sweet spot as I see it; consider it a qualifier. Remember I am not an engineer, this is my opinion, that has been influenced by my own experience, as well as the opinions and writings of others including Bill Calfee and yourself.

The sweet spot is the spot that, when everything is adjusted correctly, the tuner will allow the the rifle system to achieve maximum potential accuracy. One assumption made: The tuner works. Under that assumption, that point should be the center of the X in the vibration pattern. If I recall correctly an X shaped pattern indicates a sine wave. I think Varmint Al's depictions also indicate a sine wave. If this is unclear at all, then what I am saying there is only one true sweet spot (in my opinion) and that is the point the wave stops closest to the muzzle.


If you put a tuner (weight) on flush with the muzzle or behind the muzzle, the mass itself will slow the barrel and most likely produce a stabilizing effect that will increase accuracy; however, there is no or very little "tuning" effect. If you add weight to a tuner mounted in front of the muzzle, even though it does not need the weight, you can emulate a sweet spot in the same manner as putting a tuner flush with or behind the muzzle. However, you have not found THE sweet spot (again in reference to my definition).

The number of sweet spots versus the number of shots to find those spots. As I said, I believe there is only one. However, the number of shots is dependent upon the shooter's experience and what he/she is willing to accept. If you have found a pseudo sweet spot, you will find that your rifle is a little unpredictable in a match.

To find the one true sweet spot, you have to know first which way to go. That again will depend on the shooter's experience and also his/her experience with a particular rifle system. To truly find the center, if you ever can without very sensitive equipment, would take more ammo than I would care to shoot. Obviously, to find every pseudo sweet spot as well would take a fortune in ammo. However, I can get close enough to what I want with about 100 shots which includes those that I shoot second guessing. Bill Calfee can get close enough with about 10-15 shots. I don't think he second guesses.

Some things to consider. My rifle has no extra weight; it doesn't need it. It will shoot tiny, almost bullet hole size, ten shot groups with several different ammo lots; if it does not produce high scores in matches, it is not the fault of the rifle or the ammo. I have never noticed a flipper with good ammo, but you can't tune bad ammo to be good. The tuner only allows you to get the potential from the ammo; nothing more.
Click to expand...

Thats the best advice I have seen yet Beau. But can you build a tuner that has a HUGE sweet spot?

Paul
 
I've been reading this thread along with the other on tuners, nodes, and x's as it applies to barrel vibrations, etc. and I'm not sure what the end result should be, i.e., no barrel vibration or no barrel movement due to vibration.
I have only been shooting BR (I/R 50/50) since April of this year so I'm in a learning mode and by no means an expert on any of this but would like to ask a question which may not even be related to what is being discussed on this subject, so here goes.

Would it be possible to use an oscilloscope and a vibration transducer to watch the vibration (ringing) in the barrel and then use your tuner to tune out the harmonics (vibration) in real time, i.e., fire one shot and check o'scope then fire another shot and tune the tuner until you null out vibration????
I don't know if this is useful or not.
 
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