Tuners....To anyone who is interested...

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pacecil

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I could have put this on the nodes thread but I really think that one is over and it was heading in this direction anyway. I'm kinda taking off from Beau's last post.

It's been mentioned that a tuner had several sweet spots. I take this to mean on a tuner you might move the weight and find a sweet spot at several different positions. I'll just set up an arbitrary example. Let's say you have 1/4" total adjustment and there is a sweet spot every 1/16 inch then you could have five sweet spots. Then let's say you have the option of adding a weight to the tuner. This could produce another series of spots and I would guess they may or may not be at the same points as before we added the weight. But lets just assume we finally arrive at a tuner that has 10 spots at which the gun seems to have a little better accuracy. My question is this: Have you found the sweet spots to all be essentially the same or do you find there is only one, or maybe a few that are "super" sweet spots?

Now I've sorta got the idea from what I've read in this forum that the definition of a sweet spot is when the vertical is minimized. This indicates a sweet spot. I've never been clear though if some sweet spots minimize more than others. Are some sweet spots better than others? Are they evenly spaced? After you've found one is that all you can do?
 
pacecil said:
I could have put this on the nodes thread but I really think that one is over and it was heading in this direction anyway. I'm kinda taking off from Beau's last post.

It's been mentioned that a tuner had several sweet spots. I take this to mean on a tuner you might move the weight and find a sweet spot at several different positions. I'll just set up an arbitrary example. Let's say you have 1/4" total adjustment and there is a sweet spot every 1/16 inch then you could have five sweet spots. Then let's say you have the option of adding a weight to the tuner. This could produce another series of spots and I would guess they may or may not be at the same points as before we added the weight. But lets just assume we finally arrive at a tuner that has 10 spots at which the gun seems to have a little better accuracy. My question is this: Have you found the sweet spots to all be essentially the same or do you find there is only one, or maybe a few that are "super" sweet spots?

Now I've sorta got the idea from what I've read in this forum that the definition of a sweet spot is when the vertical is minimized. This indicates a sweet spot. I've never been clear though if some sweet spots minimize more than others. Are some sweet spots better than others? Are they evenly spaced? After you've found one is that all you can do?
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Pacecil,

Let's assume you have your ten sweet spots, but first let's visit something else which is the RvA tuner. From what I understand that tuner was made with weights of different material simply to induce differing effects on vibration. I've heard people discuss this tuner and say that the manner in which the weight is arranged will change the effect. At first I thought 6! or 720 possibilities, so if only one sweet spot is induced, it will take a while to find it. Matter of fact, I think it would get so frustrating that most people would give up on it. So, I don't think the differing effects have anything to do with the number of weights, which would seem to indicate the joint is a major contributor, but it does have something to do with the material. I don't know how many possibilities that provides but it's still a bunch and may be more than 720. So, with that being said, and what I've seen, I think there may be a few sweet spots but only one that really counts, which I am going to call the primary node or the intersection of the X. Now, if a rifle barrel vibrates in that same X pattern, and Calfee and Varmint Al have shown that it does although they use different methods, then unless you can move intersection of the X by artificially lengthening the barrel or ensure that your bullet leaves at the exact same point on the X each time, then you will have deflection. Obviously, a rifle barrel will not deflect to the degree a 3/8" inch rod will, but the concept is the same.

So, here is my uneducated opinion of a tuner and sweet spots. In general, there is only one sweet spot. However, depending upon where the tuner is and maybe the material, the sweet spot will be lengthened or shortened based on the vibration in the same manner the node lengthens and shortens based on vibration (same as can easily be demonstrated by the node). So, using a tuner, you may be able to come across that sweet spot several times, but there will be only one point that it is at maximum efficiency. That won't matter much if you get it at the best point on that particular sweet spot, but if you find "the one" you'll never have to move or adjust the tuner because the spot will be long enough to compensate for different velocities. There may be several spots at which it would be long enough to compensate for the velocity range of a .22.

Again, my comments are solely representative of rimfire and my own experience.
 
pacecil, I think there are multiple sweet spots that appear to be equal. however I think there is only one where the rifle is really tuned. also it's pretty hard to just go out and tune a rifle when time is limited. you need to tune in conditions that are favorable to a shooter. and when you are tuning use a target with as small an x ring such as a psl target or usbr target. and don't let the tuner get too dirty clean it often while testing.
 
sweet spots

My rifle has at least two,I shot it for three years on about 173 tuner setting with no weight and it shot well,won three state matches that way last summer.Then was playing around with it went out 51 clicks and it shot through the wind way better, both settings had small groups,but the last one you could get by with more.and a side note,ammo that shoots smallest group may not shoot the best score,I proved this to my self this past weekend,2450 with bigger group ammo but that ammo would not blow as far,just my opinion,Bob :):)
 
I beleive a well tuned rifle with a great lot of aamo will shoot better in the wind. I think timing a rifle with multiple lots and speeds of ammo will if properly done result in the smallest group. it cannot be disputed if you look at varmit Al's graph what launching different speeds of ammo will do with a properly timed tuner. varmit Al stated that the spread of ammo is excessive, however if you think about it to a shooter if you can order any lots of ammo blindly and know that ammo will shoot well that sure beats testing ammo. if there are 100 lots of black box ammo and you are buying one speed what are the chances of finding that once in a lifetime lot. if your rifle is tuned to shoot a wide range of ammo statisticly your odds go up. I think no matter how many shoots someone wins if they changed their tuner and it shot better it was never timed right in the first place. unless you test you cannot know for sure.
 
There are more than one sweet spot however the one that is the broadest is the best one. Broadest, the one that you can adjust the tuner 4 or 5 clicks either way and still be tuned. The broad one will not require adjustment for different conditions or ammo.
All my rifles have at least two good sweet spots however some are narrow.

Fred K
 
martin hammond said:
I beleive a well tuned rifle with a great lot of aamo will shoot better in the wind. I think timing a rifle with multiple lots and speeds of ammo will if properly done result in the smallest group. it cannot be disputed if you look at varmit Al's graph what launching different speeds of ammo will do with a properly timed tuner. varmit Al stated that the spread of ammo is excessive, however if you think about it to a shooter if you can order any lots of ammo blindly and know that ammo will shoot well that sure beats testing ammo. if there are 100 lots of black box ammo and you are buying one speed what are the chances of finding that once in a lifetime lot. if your rifle is tuned to shoot a wide range of ammo statisticly your odds go up. I think no matter how many shoots someone wins if they changed their tuner and it shot better it was never timed right in the first place. unless you test you cannot know for sure.
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Yeah, if you can order lots blindly and know they will shoot, that beats testing. As of this time, you can't do it. And you can't tune bad ammo to win.
 
I am so confident in the multiple speed ammo tuning that I have not ordered one test lot of ammo. by the end of the year in the 40x, 52b, 82g and m12 I will have shot around 25 lots of multiple speeds of team and black box. the bulk of my ammo comes from Killough, Davis and champion shooters. not once have I asked for test lots, I may ask Gene whats shooting good or look what tenex lot# are and ask other shooters. last evening Gene sent emails on ammo left he mentioned he has 37 boxes of 1058 speed match usa, for $8 a box. I emailed him back I will take it and I know it will shoot. Tom c , old sidewinder and myself split a case of black box 1077 speed tom took the most out of the three of us Tom said he may have had a flyer, I had none old sidewinder had one or two from every box. I think that is a common occurance with shooters. I'm not saying eley cannot have a production problem and put out a bad lot of ammo, but what I think is eley is making for the most part really good ammo and then occasionally great ammo. I am willing to bet by the end of the year after shooting 20,000 rounds of team and black box the number of flyers you could count on two hands. I beleive if you randomly move your tuner 51 clicks and do hit the correct tuning spot that is the equivelent to plopping money on the lottery and winning. in other words luck.
 
Martin

martin hammond said:
I am so confident in the multiple speed ammo tuning that I have not ordered one test lot of ammo. by the end of the year in the 40x, 52b, 82g and m12 I will have shot around 25 lots of multiple speeds of team and black box. the bulk of my ammo comes from Killough, Davis and champion shooters. not once have I asked for test lots, I may ask Gene whats shooting good or look what tenex lot# are and ask other shooters. last evening Gene sent emails on ammo left he mentioned he has 37 boxes of 1058 speed match usa, for $8 a box. I emailed him back I will take it and I know it will shoot. Tom c , old sidewinder and myself split a case of black box 1077 speed tom took the most out of the three of us Tom said he may have had a flyer, I had none old sidewinder had one or two from every box. I think that is a common occurance with shooters. I'm not saying eley cannot have a production problem and put out a bad lot of ammo, but what I think is eley is making for the most part really good ammo and then occasionally great ammo. I am willing to bet by the end of the year after shooting 20,000 rounds of team and black box the number of flyers you could count on two hands. I beleive if you randomly move your tuner 51 clicks and do hit the correct tuning spot that is the equivelent to plopping money on the lottery and winning. in other words luck.
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I don't think you understood the post from RLB 40X. The next thing you probably should know is Bob won the ARA Nationals last year, came in 4 th this year in the ARA Nationals and is considered one of the top shooters in rimfire br. In the last 4 years you would be hard pressed to find anyone in ARA who has won as many matches as Bob. He is also known for winning quite a few money matches. He was giving some real word experience on tuners and ammo. When he shoots there isn't much luck involved.
 
martin hammond said:
I am so confident in the multiple speed ammo tuning that I have not ordered one test lot of ammo. by the end of the year in the 40x, 52b, 82g and m12 I will have shot around 25 lots of multiple speeds of team and black box. the bulk of my ammo comes from Killough, Davis and champion shooters. not once have I asked for test lots, I may ask Gene whats shooting good or look what tenex lot# are and ask other shooters. last evening Gene sent emails on ammo left he mentioned he has 37 boxes of 1058 speed match usa, for $8 a box. I emailed him back I will take it and I know it will shoot. Tom c , old sidewinder and myself split a case of black box 1077 speed tom took the most out of the three of us Tom said he may have had a flyer, I had none old sidewinder had one or two from every box. I think that is a common occurance with shooters. I'm not saying eley cannot have a production problem and put out a bad lot of ammo, but what I think is eley is making for the most part really good ammo and then occasionally great ammo. I am willing to bet by the end of the year after shooting 20,000 rounds of team and black box the number of flyers you could count on two hands. I beleive if you randomly move your tuner 51 clicks and do hit the correct tuning spot that is the equivelent to plopping money on the lottery and winning. in other words luck.
Click to expand...

The ammo you mention that Gene Davis has will shoot. As matter of fact I shot a 2400 with it in my first match last year. It's turned some big numbers but you can consider that ammo tested.

I'm glad you're confident in tuning your ammo. I would like to see an accurate depiction of your results.
 
James you are right I miread his post on having 2 sweet spots. and was not questioning anyones marksmanship. Beau, I'm glad you tested that lot of ammo, however I had no doubt it would shoot well. I have said before, I think a rifle can be tuned for a narrow range of speed variation and have 2 or 3 sweet spots. but tuning a rifle for a wide range of ammo will yeild and will shake out the differences between those 2 or 3 sweet spots and yeild 1 and that 1 spot is where the rifle is timed. I do not beleive there are mutiple places a rifle is tuned some may mimic it but there is only one spot. and I also agree with what Fred says when you find that spot 2 clicks either way mean nothing. also on knowing if you have found the tuned spot you can shoot a target, stop at #10 target go take a break, come back and shoot a good shot on #11 target without shooting any fouling shots. you know where your tuner is set now, it would take less than a box each of 3 different speeds to check your tuner. that's not much ammo for someone who practices and competes on a regular basis.
 
Beau, here is an accurate description of the results. Tomc came here in august I went thru the timing system of 3 lots with tom's 40x. prior to this he had been shooting the bottle cap matches at fairchance you can ask how he was doing prior. the next day he shot in the matches and won something like 16 of 18 matches, he has been doing great since. sunday I was on the phone going thru the set-up with old sidewinder while he was at the range. he called back 2 hours later and said the rifle was shooting so well he was going to use this one instead of his 40x in the next match. he gave the same report to tomc, all I can say is try it.
 
What's the premise of the bottle cap match. I mean I know to some extent it's self explanatory but there's got to more to it than that.
 
it's the equivelant of placing your shots in the x ring on a ir 50/50 target. Beau reading your post on terminology I beleive Bill is saying nearly what I'm saying. only saying a wider fps lots could be used and 2 instead of 3 would do the same thing. the reason I use 3 are my 1056 speed is the most accurate and consistant, with the 1077 and 1044 also good lots.
 
I was thinking the same thing. Only I guess I missed your actual procedure. But it sounded familiar.
 
if you look back on the node thread and see the esteen's rifle where adding more weight opens the spread. the reason if I have this right is the node is being moved to the crown and shortening the window. and one of the 2 speeds is now outside the window. if one round was tested it may put everyone in the x ring while the other would be throwing flyers. and that might be why the new Von-Ahrens tuner would give a shooter a better chance of hitting the center of the node. you still have the option of 12oz of weights with a 4 oz tuner.
 
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I'm telling you, it sounded way off base to me,but try it! I was amazed how much better the rifle scored, and I thought I had it tuned before.
 
#1 Yesterday, 03:28 AM
pacecil
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 608

Tuners....To anyone who is interested...

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I could have put this on the nodes thread but I really think that one is over and it was heading in this direction anyway.

Pacecil
Weren't you one of the guys criticising Bill Calfee for exactly the same thing?
Waterboy
 
Beau said...

So, with that being said, and what I've seen, I think there may be a few sweet spots but only one that really counts, which I am going to call the primary node or the intersection of the X. Now, if a rifle barrel vibrates in that same X pattern, and Calfee and Varmint Al have shown that it does although they use different methods, then unless you can move intersection of the X by artificially lengthening the barrel or ensure that your bullet leaves at the exact same point on the X each time, then you will have deflection. Obviously, a rifle barrel will not deflect to the degree a 3/8" inch rod will, but the concept is the same.
I've been reading and rereading this and I'm trying hard..........I thought a sweet spot referred to a position of the tuner weight. But you say you are going to call it a node - that is a node which is an X on the barrel........ Then, sweet spots are position on the barrel??? Then if we artificially lengthen the barrel to insure the bullet comes out of some point on the X.....the bullet is coming out of the X? Is the X at the end of the barrel, that is the muzzle, or is it some point back from the muzzle? .......Then you will have deflection. Oh, I take this to mean the bullet will be deflected...... No, you meant the barrel will be deflected not the bullet. Then you say the barrel would not deflect as much as a 3/8 rod. Where did the 3/8 rod come from?
Now, I'm really going to try hard. Let me see if I can put this all together....A sweet spot is a point on the barrel called a node which has the shape of an X. If we can sort of lengthen the barrel we can get the bullet to come out the x and it will not cause the barrel to deflect as much as a 3/8 rod will......

No! No! No, Pacecil, you are going to have to get your sh** together! .....Let's start all over again and make some assumptions. The node is just a little ways back from the muzzle and we still have a little X as well as the node there. Then where we have a sweet spot in the tuner adjustment, this means at this point the bullet is leaving the barrel when one leg of the x is least deflected.
Now, have I got it right?

Now to get to the real problem - It seems, from reading the posts here, we have three likely ways a tuner will display it's sweet spots. 1) We may have only one, or maybe two, spots. 2) we may have several spots but only one that is the best. or 3) we have a lot of spots that are all equally good.

Now if we have a tuner 3) I can understand how we might find the spot, or a spot, very quickly, maybe by luck or possibly with a little knowledge, we could in a few shots hit on a spot. This could be the Calfee/Beau adjustment done in seconds.

If we have a tuner 1) or 2) this is going to take several more shots! Like maybe, several thousand!

Anyone disagree?
 
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