Butch Lambert
Active member
Fred, maybe that would be a better use for Vegemite.
Butch
Butch
R
Rock63
Guest
Really? Please explain the finer points for us new guys, because we cannot get an explanation that:
-is Fact Based
-covers selection criteria for commercial tuners
-includes prices of tuners
-actually compares the various commercial tuners that are on the market
DA? What is DA?
Butch.......
That might be the ONLY good use for Vegemite!!! A friend brought me some and i honestly thought it was thick axel grease,this thought was re enforced after trying some on a cracker!
Beau.......you have got to stop now! This much laughter can't be good for me[and "poor ole bill" won't know you eye poked him anyway.]
Cecil....awwwwww never mind.
That might be the ONLY good use for Vegemite!!! A friend brought me some and i honestly thought it was thick axel grease,this thought was re enforced after trying some on a cracker!
Beau.......you have got to stop now! This much laughter can't be good for me[and "poor ole bill" won't know you eye poked him anyway.]
Cecil....awwwwww never mind.
Best Bet
You need to contact a mentor on the west coast so you can learn from first hand. If you haven't been able to grasp the information that has been posted on this board for the past 10 years at least, then I don't think any thing more we say on the subject will be of much help. Check out the club schedules of the varoius disaplines and select one close to you. Go to one of their shoots, and talk with the people that compete. Please wait until they a through shooting before you interupt them. Make sure you select a disapline that uses tuners.
You need to contact a mentor on the west coast so you can learn from first hand. If you haven't been able to grasp the information that has been posted on this board for the past 10 years at least, then I don't think any thing more we say on the subject will be of much help. Check out the club schedules of the varoius disaplines and select one close to you. Go to one of their shoots, and talk with the people that compete. Please wait until they a through shooting before you interupt them. Make sure you select a disapline that uses tuners.
R
Rock63
Guest
Got one, thanks. But I also see this forum as a virtual mentor, thus I read your postings with great interest and work hard to run the content thru a mental filter to remove the possum grease.
Ability to grasp is not the problem.
Interfearance from people being funny is a problem.
Review the last few threads started by newcomers who are beginners. You will see little fact, much diversion, limited useful information.
I confess to being a new guy, and I cannot say that I have read every posting here for the past 10 years, although I have performed searches and spent many many hours reading here.
Done. However I seek the knowledge and guidance that should be available from the much larger club, the benchrest.com club. Cumulatively you own more bench rifles, tuners, and have competed in more matches than all of my local club members combined.
C
cadman1275
Guest
My answers come from this thread and others, plus ones you have either asked in or started.
Bill
Okay, I'll give you my take on your questions/thoughts
First, the theory is that tuners work on distribution of weight/mass. By distributing the mass correctly, you, in theory, can increase precision by decreasing/controlling vibration. You want an answer that's fact based, you're probably not going to get it. It's pretty much all theory. I've seen a few posts that attemp to put it into fact but really don't.
I know there are more tuners, but the two (muzzle mount) I'm familiar with are the Harrel/Hoehn and the Fudd. Basically, they work the same. There's an adjustable feature to distribute the weight. One is flush with the barrel (Fudd), the other is not (Harrel/Hoehn). There are also mid-barrel tuners that attempt to control/minimize vibration with varying results. These are out there, but not as popular although they did catch on for a time. The ones I'm familiar with are the Henrich, JJ, and Limbsaver.
I saw the Harrel priced for $150 a few days ago (new). There are weight kits that you can get that vary from $20 to around $100. You can also get a bloop tube for around $20. The last price I saw on the Fudd was around $120. I don't think there are weight kits for the Fudd. There is a bloop tube model.
Comparison: They work on the same theory. Either will do the same thing.
I can give you my experience if you want. Bottom line is I set it with the Hopewell method (do a search). I found a spot I liked, but that does not mean the testing is statistically sound and I doubt that it is. I've added weight to the tuner, taken weight from the tuner with various results. Finally, I use no additional weight. The tuner is locked at a certain setting and has not been changed in over a year even with different ammo. I don't intend to change the setting. Other people will change the settings during a match. Again with various results.
Seriously, you could write a book on tuners just from the information here. Would it be worth anything. Probably the same level of confusion but it would be in book form.
DA is density altitude. Something airplane pilots need to know, but maybe you do or don't. Depends on how many seasons you shoot through.
D
Doug
Guest
Ok I have printed out the Hopewell Method for adjusting Tuners.
I have Calffe's Water In The Barrel method as a back up.
My tuner is not threaded so I made some weights that will slip over a std Hoen tuner. 1/2 oz, 1 1/2oz, 2 1/2 oz & 3 1/2 oz.
I have a brick of pretty good eley black box to test with.
Now I am looking for any Ideas that I should use in my testing?
Any Tweaks to The Hopewell or Water Method that I should consider in my testing.
Equip is a 40X with a Lilja barrel. It shoots in the 245 to 248 range with 12 to 15 x's. The occasional flipper (not wind related) most of the time kills my 250.
ANY Thoughts before I spen a day at the range?
I have Calffe's Water In The Barrel method as a back up.
My tuner is not threaded so I made some weights that will slip over a std Hoen tuner. 1/2 oz, 1 1/2oz, 2 1/2 oz & 3 1/2 oz.
I have a brick of pretty good eley black box to test with.
Now I am looking for any Ideas that I should use in my testing?
Any Tweaks to The Hopewell or Water Method that I should consider in my testing.
Equip is a 40X with a Lilja barrel. It shoots in the 245 to 248 range with 12 to 15 x's. The occasional flipper (not wind related) most of the time kills my 250.
ANY Thoughts before I spen a day at the range?
Butch Lambert
Active member
Beau, The Shadetree Eng. tuner is also available and it is $85. We advertise on this forum.
Go to Varmint Al's website and you will find a lot of scientific stuff if that is what you are looking for. I am a centerfire person and can tell you that when you put on a tuner and shoot 3 shot groups and move the tuner you will see very quickly what a tuner will do. We do not have the tuner knowledge that the rimfire guys possess. We are learning.
A lot of work has been done in Gene Begg's tunnel trying to correlate DA with tuner settings. I don't think what was learned in the tunnel has proven out in the real world. Not saying it won't be, but not at this time.
Butch
Go to Varmint Al's website and you will find a lot of scientific stuff if that is what you are looking for. I am a centerfire person and can tell you that when you put on a tuner and shoot 3 shot groups and move the tuner you will see very quickly what a tuner will do. We do not have the tuner knowledge that the rimfire guys possess. We are learning.
A lot of work has been done in Gene Begg's tunnel trying to correlate DA with tuner settings. I don't think what was learned in the tunnel has proven out in the real world. Not saying it won't be, but not at this time.
Butch
Butch Lambert
Active member
No problem at all Beau as I knew that you probably weren't aware of ours. I can see where they are an asset. Varmint Al did some FEA on ours with a centerfire rifle and Esten Spears another engineer did some testing and did the original work on ours. You just have to get out and shoot them and work with them. I hope to have a little feedback on ours from a couple rimfire shooters in the near future.
Butch
www.shadetreeea.com
Butch
www.shadetreeea.com
D
Doug
Guest
Butch in looking at your tuner I have a couple of questions:
How is it attached to the barrel? Glue, Solder or?
Also the weight at 6.4 oz seems awful light according to Rimfire standards.
How is it attached to the barrel? Glue, Solder or?
Also the weight at 6.4 oz seems awful light according to Rimfire standards.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Doug,
Ours is threaded .900X32. I guess that it won't work on rimfire as the threads will ruin the barrel. I have sleeved and clamped a couple. It would be easy to sandwich a heavier weight between the 2 adjusting rings or add an additional ring. As I said, our work has been on centerfire and I do not have any rimfire feedback at this time.
OOOPs, the DA changed, I need to change my tuner.
Butch
Ours is threaded .900X32. I guess that it won't work on rimfire as the threads will ruin the barrel. I have sleeved and clamped a couple. It would be easy to sandwich a heavier weight between the 2 adjusting rings or add an additional ring. As I said, our work has been on centerfire and I do not have any rimfire feedback at this time.
OOOPs, the DA changed, I need to change my tuner.
Butch
A revelation!....
It has come to me one of the very important aspects of tuner worship. Shooters love how their guns LOOK. Nothing wrong with this, I do and I realize many others do too. Remember how, when you first got into guns, you loved the look of a ramped, hooded front sight on a rifle. It just made for a rakish, cool looking rifle. Along came scopes and the straight smooth naked barrel. And with benchrest rifles, it was an ugly SHORT naked barrel! I kinda like this look but I can see where a lot of shooters might not. You know - hey, what happened to the rest of your barrel? So when tuners came out they added something to the barrel that had been lost. When more and more shooters begin adding them to their guns, they just began to look, well, normal. Now if you don't have a short round sleeve added to the front of the barrel, it's like you are missing something - if you go to a benchrest shoot, you are going to be laughed at! Hey doofus, where's the rest of your gun?
The function and value of adding weight to the barrel is so well recognized now that it's amazing that some shooters still have questions about what they gain by adding a tuner to their rifle. The improvement in accuracy may be small and hard to prove but this is compensated for by the confidence the shooter gets by having a nice looking rifle with that little weight on the end of his barrel.
TUNERS WORK!!!.....THEY IMPROVE ACCURACY, THEY DAMPEN VIBRATION, THEY STOP MUZZLES, THEY COMPENSATE FOR VELOCITY VARIATIONS, THEY OVERCOME EFFECTS OF WATER, THEY ELIMINATE FLIERS, THEY MAKE GOOD AMMO BETTER, THEY REDUCE BULLET YAW, THEY OVERCOME CONDITIONS, THEY CHOKE THE BORE, THEY REDUCE EFFECTS OF WIND, THEY IMPROVE BULLET RELEASE, THEY ELIMINATE VERTICAL, THEY REDUCE RECOIL, THEY IMPROVE BALANCE, THEY EXTEND SIGHT RADIUS, THEY ...LOOK COOL!
There, that's the truth about your tuner....and you can't stand the truth!
It has come to me one of the very important aspects of tuner worship. Shooters love how their guns LOOK. Nothing wrong with this, I do and I realize many others do too. Remember how, when you first got into guns, you loved the look of a ramped, hooded front sight on a rifle. It just made for a rakish, cool looking rifle. Along came scopes and the straight smooth naked barrel. And with benchrest rifles, it was an ugly SHORT naked barrel! I kinda like this look but I can see where a lot of shooters might not. You know - hey, what happened to the rest of your barrel? So when tuners came out they added something to the barrel that had been lost. When more and more shooters begin adding them to their guns, they just began to look, well, normal. Now if you don't have a short round sleeve added to the front of the barrel, it's like you are missing something - if you go to a benchrest shoot, you are going to be laughed at! Hey doofus, where's the rest of your gun?
The function and value of adding weight to the barrel is so well recognized now that it's amazing that some shooters still have questions about what they gain by adding a tuner to their rifle. The improvement in accuracy may be small and hard to prove but this is compensated for by the confidence the shooter gets by having a nice looking rifle with that little weight on the end of his barrel.
TUNERS WORK!!!.....THEY IMPROVE ACCURACY, THEY DAMPEN VIBRATION, THEY STOP MUZZLES, THEY COMPENSATE FOR VELOCITY VARIATIONS, THEY OVERCOME EFFECTS OF WATER, THEY ELIMINATE FLIERS, THEY MAKE GOOD AMMO BETTER, THEY REDUCE BULLET YAW, THEY OVERCOME CONDITIONS, THEY CHOKE THE BORE, THEY REDUCE EFFECTS OF WIND, THEY IMPROVE BULLET RELEASE, THEY ELIMINATE VERTICAL, THEY REDUCE RECOIL, THEY IMPROVE BALANCE, THEY EXTEND SIGHT RADIUS, THEY ...LOOK COOL!
There, that's the truth about your tuner....and you can't stand the truth!
J
J Pappas
Guest
Pacecil....
Pacecil, you are finally catching on. You still need to go to a rimfire benchrest match. You don't realize how good a rimfire rifle has to shoot to score a 2500 on an ARA target or 250 -24x on an IR/50-50 target. You can keep writing your posts on tuners(I have read them for 2 years) and you still won't get it or go to a rimfire br match see how little you know about them. Just because no one can explain tuners to your satisfaction doesn't mean rimfire br shooters don't know how to use them. james
Pacecil, you are finally catching on. You still need to go to a rimfire benchrest match. You don't realize how good a rimfire rifle has to shoot to score a 2500 on an ARA target or 250 -24x on an IR/50-50 target. You can keep writing your posts on tuners(I have read them for 2 years) and you still won't get it or go to a rimfire br match see how little you know about them. Just because no one can explain tuners to your satisfaction doesn't mean rimfire br shooters don't know how to use them. james
K
kasjaka
Guest
tuner madness
If for nothing else , tuners are something else to keep ammo companies in business , keep grown men frustrated and at the range longer , and just another gadget to screw with
and without one you look funny and people will laugh at you
If for nothing else , tuners are something else to keep ammo companies in business , keep grown men frustrated and at the range longer , and just another gadget to screw with
and without one you look funny and people will laugh at you
That is probably the best reccommendation you can give the gentleman.... and yet what will you wager.
I'll tell you what Cecil, your not too far from us, come up to Syracuse some time, I'll let you shoot a quality BR gun in a match... I'll give you some ammo, all for the greater good of the sport. Hows that for an offer.