Tuner question (not for real......) :) maybe?

Just to add something a little different, I have recently fitted a "barrel weight" to customers F Class gun that he was having trouble getting it shoot consistently (shoot well one day and terrible the next), so we glued on a 600 gram weight on the end of the barrel (flush with the end, not overhanging and not adjustable), well it turned it from very fussy to a rifle with a huge tune window.
Regards
Matt P
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Mike i know you use the science of particle dampening- have you tried other things? Different powders, mercury, glycerine, glycol, oil? I have an extensive background on balancing rotating machinery and those items mentioned are some of the things we use
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Dusty, I considered oils and mercury, as well as springs and weights. As mentioned earlier, Bukys' rubber on his tuner is what got me headed down the path of finding a more efficient damping media than just a hunk of steel or aluminum on the end of the barrel. After pretty extensive research, two methods kept coming back up, tuned mass and particle dampening. Tuned mass dampening, in very simple form, would be a spring attached to the barrel with a weight suspended by it. Practicality was the issue here, as was thermal stability of springs. Somewhat relative was the work some had previously done with opposing magnets. But particle damping won out due to effectiveness and feasibility. I tested different particle medias, determining that what worked best was extremely fine and dense, so tungsten powder got the nod. I wish something cheaper had worked as well.:eek:

I forget what ultimately ruled out liquids, but I did study the concept before going the pd route. Perhaps it's worth testing. I do distinctly remember an analogy running through my head about an excited tuning fork being submerged in water, oil and tungsten powder..for some reason. Hopefully that analogy helps you with why I decided on pd and tungsten powder.

There was already extensive and expensive research done with particle dampening, comparing it's effectiveness to other means as well as other mediums used in pd. That certainly plays a part, when the research is already there, and just needed an application relative to barrel dampening.--Mike
 
Matt P said:
Just to add something a little different, I have recently fitted a "barrel weight" to customers F Class gun that he was having trouble getting it shoot consistently (shoot well one day and terrible the next), so we glued on a 600 gram weight on the end of the barrel (flush with the end, not overhanging and not adjustable), well it turned it from very fussy to a rifle with a huge tune window.
Regards
Matt P
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Amazing, isn't it?
 
How about this sisituation:

Some assumptions must be accepted to what I am about to say. On a thread on another forum a lad who has been winning indoor rim fire matches with big scores; some of them perfect scores, describes his rifle's components. He is using a tuner that is nearly three times heavier than most others use. The assumptions being that a rifle shot is a rifle shot, regardless of caliber and powder charge and that a rifle barrel is a rifle barrel.

What I find interesting is the tuner weight. While I have been able to tune 21.5" 30 caliber barrels with 3 or 4 ounces, those seem to be finicky, from my experience. Not all the time but under some conditions. While it is probably impossible for CF folks to use 30 or 40 oz to tune a barrel, I am wondering if anyone has ever gone in that direction? More in line with "Positive Compensation" perhaps?

Thanks,

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
Some assumptions must be accepted to what I am about to say. On a thread on another forum a lad who has been winning indoor rim fire matches with big scores; some of them perfect scores, describes his rifle's components. He is using a tuner that is nearly three times heavier than most others use. The assumptions being that a rifle shot is a rifle shot, regardless of caliber and powder charge and that a rifle barrel is a rifle barrel.

What I find interesting is the tuner weight. While I have been able to tune 21.5" 30 caliber barrels with 3 or 4 ounces, those seem to be finicky, from my experience. Not all the time but under some conditions. While it is probably impossible for CF folks to use 30 or 40 oz to tune a barrel, I am wondering if anyone has ever gone in that direction? More in line with "Positive Compensation" perhaps?

Thanks,

Pete
Click to expand...

Pete, I've tested different weight tuners quite a bit. Soon, I hope to have vibration analysis completed. This is one that we have not yet tested. IME, more weight does give what you are seeing...wider tune windows and less sensitivity to both ammo(rf) and atmospheric conditions.

Obviously, the person you refer to with the 21oz tuner has good ammo, good equipment, and has learned to steer the gun very well, but I don't think the heavy tuner and 4 out of his last 7 ara cards(IIRC) being 2500's, is a coincidence. It's absolutely amazing, though..and I don't think that's ever been done before. He's also relatively new to the game and builds his own rifles. Go figure! A certain prominent smith has yet to recognize this accomplishment, that I've seen. Interesting, eh? ;)
 
Yes, VERY interesting

mwezell said:
Pete, I've tested different weight tuners quite a bit. Soon, I hope to have vibration analysis completed. This is one that we have not yet tested. IME, more weight does give what you are seeing...wider tune windows and less sensitivity to both ammo(rf) and atmospheric conditions.

Obviously, the person you refer to with the 21oz tuner has good ammo, good equipment, and has learned to steer the gun very well, but I don't think the heavy tuner and 4 out of his last 7 ara cards(IIRC) being 2500's, is a coincidence. It's absolutely amazing, though..and I don't think that's ever been done before. He's also relatively new to the game and builds his own rifles. Go figure! A certain prominent smith has yet to recognize this accomplishment, that I've seen. Interesting, eh? ;)
Click to expand...

It is indeed a remarkable accomplishment. Talk about outside the box, eh? I don't know if you know of or have seen Denny A's rifle with 37 Lbs. of tuner? Really outside the box!

Pete
 
Pete I have tried up to 30 ozs in front of the muzzle,

Pete Wass said:
Some assumptions must be accepted to what I am about to say. On a thread on another forum a lad who has been winning indoor rim fire matches with big scores; some of them perfect scores, describes his rifle's components. He is using a tuner that is nearly three times heavier than most others use. The assumptions being that a rifle shot is a rifle shot, regardless of caliber and powder charge and that a rifle barrel is a rifle barrel.

What I find interesting is the tuner weight. While I have been able to tune 21.5" 30 caliber barrels with 3 or 4 ounces, those seem to be finicky, from my experience. Not all the time but under some conditions. While it is probably impossible for CF folks to use 30 or 40 oz to tune a barrel, I am wondering if anyone has ever gone in that direction? More in line with "Positive Compensation" perhaps?

Thanks,

Pete
Click to expand...

with all weight being added in front of the crown 1 ounce at a time up to 30 ounces, At 100yds ,essentually I map the vertical movements of the barrel on target. I start with 2 loads averaging 45 fps apart or 1 grain of powder charge,shoot 1 shot of each powder charge at the same spot,note the vertical,move sideways on the target 1 inch and add another ounce and repeat the 2 shots untill I have added the limit of weight which is generally 30 ounces.Then put together a map of the 2 shot groups side by side in order of adding weight and end up with a complete map of barrel movements on paper. Once I have picked the weight which looks the best and fine tuned it to be dead level and will making no further adjustments of the tuner. Then what I do is check the width of tune or velocites corrected by shooting 1 group with 5 grains of powder differences within that group at 100 yds,I start with the middle powder charge first to get a hole established,then shoot a 1 grain less and keep going to the point of dropping out the bottom that being the limit for the slow end and then I go the other direction on powder changes ,when the fastest one pop out the top that would be the upper limit,then I know my width of tune..I am sure you guys know how much temp effects velocities so what I am looking for is a velocity range that is equal or wider then the changes incurred by temp changes with a single load with 20 degrees to 105 degrees of temp change. I am guessing it would be aprox 100 fps change through the range of temps.After all of this at 100yds then I re adjust for 1000 yds which is usually just a couple of clicks away from the 100 yd tune.

Tim in Tx
 
Jerry H said:
Here is a 20+ounce tuner that I will use this year.
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Now, boy howdy, that is a tuner!! Rimfire or centerfire?

Be interesting to see how sensitive this monster is.

On my 10 oz Fudds a 0.007" axial movement would take me from dot to dash or dot to vertical.

.
 
I had a Fudd years ago

JerrySharrett said:
Now, boy howdy, that is a tuner!! Rimfire or centerfire?

Be interesting to see how sensitive this monster is.

On my 10 oz Fudds a 0.007" axial movement would take me from dot to dash or dot to vertical.

.
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on a 40X RF rifle. It was bored big enough so that it would slide behind the muzzle. I tried it both hanging over the muzzle and all of it behind the muzzle and the rifle shot the same, either way it was located. I use to keep it behind the muzzle so that I didn't have to clean it. This was back in the 90's sometime.

Pete
 
I went over to the dark side (RF) when I quit CF several years ago. This is a RF. This is actually a dual tuner. The main body scale is toward the barrel. The 1.5 ounce second tuner is at the exit end.
 
The von Ahren

is an interesting concept, using that light ring @ the rear of it, which apparently does change the tune of it. It's interesting to know that going from being what we consider "in tune" at, say, 8 oz to 20 or even 30 oz may be an improvement. I am guessing there must be other nodes between those weights where "tune" seems to appear? It appears that a lot more weight than is customary may be "better", eh?

Pete
 
With Air Rifles

I think I have determined that bloop tube type tuners are only effective because of their weight AND tune changes from day to day with them. With the rifles I have, a mid-barrel sliding weight seems to provide the most stable tune for them. ( A rifle shot is a rifle shot concept again) Have youse guys done any testing with mid-barrel tuners?

Pete
 
Jerry H said:
I went over to the dark side (RF) when I quit CF several years ago. This is a RF. This is actually a dual tuner. The main body scale is toward the barrel. The 1.5 ounce second tuner is at the exit end.
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So this device will make a sows purse into a silk ear? And, will make Federal Lightening onto Eley 10X?
 
Not hardly! Even the high dollar ammo leaves a lot to be desired for the price. But then again, I judge it by how well it shoots a 40 shot group. Anything under .550 moa is a good lot. Sometimes I wonder what a CF would with a 40 shot group test. Maybe not much better.
 
A Smith of some fame

says that there is .150" of vertical built into our best ammo. Be that true, taking that out is the quest. From new developments, things look more promising, I must say.

Pete
 
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