Tuner question (not for real......) :) maybe?

[mwezell]

i know this has been asked and answered before but what i have always wanted to know is......... with our 6ppc most loads are between 52.5 and 55 clicks. do people with tuners go with the average (53.75) or around there...... load all their loads with that and just adjust the tuner until they find the tune without adding powder or loading less powder? or do people still change loads along with the tuner? is the tuner strictly for small adjustments? i have a hard time with just trying to go up or down on powder i couldnt imagine adding another variable.

Also in my first post when I was saying rubber washer I meant a rubber O ring

Scott, herein lies the beauty of a tuner. Given your example and assuming that 55 clicks is at or near max in your gun, I'd load the 52.5 click load and adjust the tuner to it. No need to shoot a load that could be too hot on some days, but the load has to be a good one in your rifle. Tuners won't fix bad loads. Where that's confusing is that your bad load might be a good one at a certain temp or condition. For purposes here, lets just say to go with your known good lower end load and not have to deal with high pressures..anymore. You could just as easily go with the 53.75 load, as long as it's a proven load in your gun. I'd just stay away from the potential brass wrecker loads. With a tuner, there's no reason to go there in short range.

 

[mks]

Amplitude is what effectively slows the muzzle and creates longer dwell time at nodes.

Mike,
I think this needs some explanation, because it is at odds with the conventional terminology of vibration analysis. First, amplitude means the peak-to-peak displacement or angle change of the vibration wave. For a given frequency, greater amplitude means that speed must increase. (Like moving point B farther from point A, to get from A to B in the same time, we have to go faster.)

Second, there is no dwell time for a muzzle. It is in constant motion. In fact, we want it to move. If we could get it to "stop," then it would not be tuned because there would be no positive compensation. What we want to happen is that the muzzle angle is rising at the perfect speed (not too fast and not too slow) such that slow bullets, which leave the muzzle later, are launched at a higher trajectory such that they hit the target at the same point as the fast ones.

Lastly, a node is normally defined as a point along a vibration waveform that doesn't oscillate in position. For a steady wave, the locations of the nodes don't change. Halfway between the nodes are the antinodes, where maximum displacement occurs.

Seems like you may be using these terms differently.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[JerrySharrett]

Thanks Jerry, that pretty well mirrors what I've found.

As for tuners adding another variable, I see it just the opposite. To me, it's much easier to learn how to use a tuner than to learn to keep a gun in tune with powder charge/seating depth. If one is determined to tune the traditional way and leave the tuner set, then he still sees the broader tune benefit with no other variables.

It appears to me many of the light tuner users are adjusting at the bench after the load is loaded. During sightin is when I see them doing most of the adjusting. The tuner is another variable or option if you want to call it that. Its up to the shooter as which they wish to tune with. Any way you look at it, the tuner adds another choice.

With a heavy tuner the shooter can tune the barrel to its optimum, then continue as previous with a barrel that is in better natural tune.

Chicken or egg, or egg and chicken.

 

[Boyd Allen]

I was able to compensate for the entire weight of a 5 1/4 oz. tuner by stepping the barrel, this without reducing the muzzle diameter, or shortening the barrel. I ran the cylindrical sections back (about 6 1/2 inches) till the step up to the original contour was about .100 in diameter, and then cut another at that diameter to the point where the step up was the same (for a total of two steps). I had calculated this before we did it, and it came out as planned. Accuracy and the tune window seemed to have been increased. The weight added at the muzzle was one of Jackie's early tuners plus a Deresonator. Because I had fitted the tuner to the barrel such a short time before the match, I lacked the data to make tuner adjustments during the match, so I went with my original setup as far as tuner setting, and made one powder adjustment through the days to compensate for increasing temperature. Tune seemed much less fussy, and the gun seemed to shoot closer to what the flags were showing than it had before. To me, there does not seem to be much of a barrier to using tuners over five ounces on a 10 1/2# rifle. I could have cut another cylindrical section/step on the barrel and taken off even more weight. We took a lot of very light cuts when stepping the barrel. It was button rifled.

 

[mwezell]

Mike,
I think this needs some explanation, because it is at odds with the conventional terminology of vibration analysis. First, amplitude means the peak-to-peak displacement or angle change of the vibration wave. For a given frequency, greater amplitude means that speed must increase. (Like moving point B farther from point A, to get from A to B in the same time, we have to go faster.)

Second, there is no dwell time for a muzzle. It is in constant motion. In fact, we want it to move. If we could get it to "stop," then it would not be tuned because there would be no positive compensation. What we want to happen is that the muzzle angle is rising at the perfect speed (not too fast and not too slow) such that slow bullets, which leave the muzzle later, are launched at a higher trajectory such that they hit the target at the same point as the fast ones.

Lastly, a node is normally defined as a point along a vibration waveform that doesn't oscillate in position. For a steady wave, the locations of the nodes don't change. Halfway between the nodes are the antinodes, where maximum displacement occurs.

Seems like you may be using these terms differently.

Cheers,
Keith

Hi Keith! I look forward to seeing you at a match soon.

First, technically you're correct, as usual. I was trying to keep things as simple as possible. The majority of us get confused when we start talking about amplitude and frequency. When all is said and done, how tuners work is far less important to most of us than how we can make them work for us.

For what I consider the purposes of this conversation, I think thie following definition of amplitude will suffice.

...the maximum extent of a vibration or oscillation, measured from the position of equilibrium.

This implies a couple of things. First of all, while the muzzle technically never stops moving, it does have a maximum amount of displacement, both vertically and horizontally. The mass(tuner) at the end of the barrel, along with gravity make it's movement vertically biased. A heavier tuner does this moreso than a lighter one...again, gravity here. In layman's terms, amplitude can be considered how far the muzzle moves, in this context, vertically. But due to the fact that it oscillates, I think somewhat skinny eggshaped would be a decent description of the muzzle displacement as it oscillates, vertically biased.

When I used the term dwell time, I do so because we have a point at top and bottom where the muzzle slows and changes direction. This is where I hope bullet exit occurs, not while the barrel is at full song going in either the up or downward(biased) part of its swing. IOW, we have a point at top and bottom of LESS movement for a period. This is what I referred to as dwell time, be it technically correct or not. The area just before maximum vertical displacement is the area that I try to tune to...for positive compensation and because of it being near the top of it's oscillation, where movement is slowed before it changes direction, and starts back down.

Adjusting the tuner changes the frequency of the vibration. Again, I think this definition of frequency applies here.

...the number of cycles or completed alternations per unit time of a wave or oscillation. Symbol: F;

IOW, how far between nodes.

FWIW, I have had someone you may know at the University of Cincinnati do some viration analysis testing with my tuners. His name is Sam Glover. I hope we can conclude the testing soon. I don't think anyone fully understands everything that's going on with tuners yet, but Sam is very qualified and his son is working with him on this. He's a mechanical engineer, specializing in vibration analysis. Sam is a shooter, so he has a good understanding of what we're looking for. He's also a nuclear physicist and former adviser at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

One thing that has been proven is a 35% lowering of the frequency of the test barrel with my tuner vs, no tuner. What this tells us is that we have greater amplitude, as mentioned earlier, and a lower frequency of vibration. So, we have slowed the muzzle displacement by lowering the frequency and lengthened the period where the barrel is moving slowest in its oscillation with more amplitude. We have yet to discuss how the dampening agent in my tuners affects this, too.

Here's a good read of my basis for using particle dampening, in a research done at Texas A&M. I very highly recommend everyone read it. It's quite interesting and is why I feel like my tuners are the next step in tuner design.
http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/1459/etd-tamu-2003C-AERO-Marhadi-1.pdf?sequence=1

You are also correct in pointing out my misuse of the term "node". Keep in mind, I was trying to relay what I'm saying in terms that "most" of us understand...myself included.

I certainly understand you pointing out what you have, Keith. But part of the trouble with tuners is the confusion and speaking over most of our heads when it comes to describing what they do. I read your posts with interest, as I have everything I could find on the subject since 2006 or 2007, when I started playing with tuners. I'm 100% convinced that I won't be shooting without a tuner until something better comes along.--Mike

 

[Boyd Allen]

Changing the subject a bit. Has anyone observed that moving a given amount of mass farther in front of the muzzle creates more effect? Related to this, when one has a tube in front of the crown, is there an ID to length ratio that needs to be taken into account? The obvious point of my question is that perhaps we can reduce the total weight of a tuner, by moving the weight farther in front of the muzzle. One other issue that may come up with this is that the integrity of the tuner barrel joint may be more critical.

 

[mwezell]

Changing the subject a bit. Has anyone observed that moving a given amount of mass farther in front of the muzzle creates more effect? Related to this, when one has a tube in front of the crown, is there an ID to length ratio that needs to be taken into account? The obvious point of my question is that perhaps we can reduce the total weight of a tuner, by moving the weight farther in front of the muzzle. One other issue that may come up with this is that the integrity of the tuner barrel joint may be more critical.

Boyd, I love how you're always thinking! Obviously, if the attachment is good and the tube very rigid, the difference would be simple leverage. Somehow I believe you're thinking beyond that. If the tube had some flexibility, would that be bad?Hmmm.

 

[TSI243]

overhang

Boyd
I did a lot of experimenting with tuners when I was developing my Tuner/Snubber including playing with overhang, as you know my Tuner dose overhang the muzzle by about an 1" .

What I found was:

Overhang is a good thing and dose increase the effectiveness of the tuner

As overhang increases there is a point where gasses, exiting the bore behind the bullet, going faster than the bullet, exit the muzzle, expand out, hit the tuner ID, and rebound back into the tuner ID. If these gases, which are quite turbulent by this time, do impact the bullet before it leaves the tuners bore, it's not a happy condition -- bad things happened to the bullet ---ask me how I know ???

I did find that unhappy point of overhang. My tuner is safely short of that point. Using my tuners you can be assured that the bullet is long gone by the time gasses are rebounding back to the ID.

When developing my tuners I also played with methods of attaching the tuner to the barrel and I can assure you that the tuner must have solid contact to the barrel and can not move during firing. When I adjust my tuner I move it in 1/8 of a turn increments on a 32 pitch thread -- that is a movement of only .004 --and I can assure you that this can be seen on paper, and that little bit of movement dose make a diference. Tuner lock up with the barrel must be solid!!! I can't stress this enough!!

Gene Bukys

 

[jackie schmidt]

+1000 on what Gene says.

 

[mks]

Mike,
It has been a while since we have been at the same match. I hope to shoot more this summer, and to see you and your new tuner in person.

If there is one misconception about tuners that I would like to clear up more than any other…well, actually there are two that are related.

First is that the barrel should be moving slowly to be tuned. This is false. It needs to be moving rapidly for positive compensation. Probably more rapidly than most BR rifles are capable, without a muzzle mass.

Second, that the muzzle position, high or low, is important. This also is false. It is muzzle angle that is paramount.

For example, take a fishing rod and point it horizontally. Then rotate the grip quickly upward, as if to make a back cast with only your wrist, and no arm motion. This simulates the rotation that recoil causes in a rifle. The rod tip rises, but as it does so, it still points downward. Likewise, when the muzzle of a rifle reaches it highest point, it is still pointed low on the target.

Now, rotate the grip back down in time with the rod's natural tendency to whip back and forth. The tip continues to rise, even though the rest of the rod is accelerating downward. Notice that the tip is pointed highest some time later as it is traveling downward. So for the rifle barrel, the time we want bullets to exit is when the muzzle angle is rising, and we shouldn't care whether muzzle position is high or low or in the middle. Typical, stiff rifles need bullet exit timed to be near the time of maximum rate of muzzle angle change (angular velocity), which tends to be when the rest of the barrel is traveling downward the fastest.


Cheers,
Keith

 

[Gene Beggs]

Yeah, buddy!

Yes sir, Scott! Your tuner thread has brought out some terrific discussion among the most knowledgeable shooters in the world.

Anything said about barrel tuners and barrel vibration always commands my undivided attention. There have been some very good points made here. Lots of smart individuals, some with impressive degrees and qualifications have experimented with tuners at length during the past ten years or so. Great progress has been made but I'm sure there will be new discoveries and improvements made in the future.

Later,

Gene Beggs

 

[mwezell]

Boyd
I did a lot of experimenting with tuners when I was developing my Tuner/Snubber including playing with overhang, as you know my Tuner dose overhang the muzzle by about an 1" .

What I found was:

Overhang is a good thing and dose increase the effectiveness of the tuner

As overhang increases there is a point where gasses, exiting the bore behind the bullet, going faster than the bullet, exit the muzzle, expand out, hit the tuner ID, and rebound back into the tuner ID. If these gases, which are quite turbulent by this time, do impact the bullet before it leaves the tuners bore, it's not a happy condition -- bad things happened to the bullet ---ask me how I know ???

I did find that unhappy point of overhang. My tuner is safely short of that point. Using my tuners you can be assured that the bullet is long gone by the time gasses are rebounding back to the ID.

When developing my tuners I also played with methods of attaching the tuner to the barrel and I can assure you that the tuner must have solid contact to the barrel and can not move during firing. When I adjust my tuner I move it in 1/8 of a turn increments on a 32 pitch thread -- that is a movement of only .004 --and I can assure you that this can be seen on paper, and that little bit of movement dose make a diference. Tuner lock up with the barrel must be solid!!! I can't stress this enough!!

Gene Bukys

Hi Gene,
I don't disagree with any of what you say except relative to the solid mounting. If sensitive enough vibration analysis equipment is used you'll find that short of welding a tuner on, there is still going to be slight movement at the joint. Obviously, the tuner must not be free to move all over the place. A few of us have seen what happens when a tuner gets loose, and you're right...it's not good. But clamping with pinch bolts is only a partial fix for the small movement I referred to earlier. We may think it's solid, but it's not. Nor would it be if it were pressed on with considerable interference fit. Ever cut a pressed on bearing race from a shaft with a torch? It's relatively easy to do without hurting the shaft it's pressed on to. Same principle...It's not one piece as it would be if it were welded so the heat doesn't transfer to the shaft the same way. Same goes for vibration between two parts...they're not one part with pinch bolts.

The good news is that if addressed in a way such as yours, with pinch bolts, that small amount of movement at the joint does appear to be a non-factor, or at least not one that stands outside of the noise.--Mike

 

[mwezell]

Yes sir, Scott! Your tuner thread has brought out some terrific discussion among the most knowledgeable shooters in the world.

Anything said about barrel tuners and barrel vibration always commands my undivided attention. There have been some very good points made here. Lots of smart individuals, some with impressive degrees and qualifications have experimented with tuners at length during the past ten years or so. Great progress has been made but I'm sure there will be new discoveries and improvements made in the future.

Most of the centerfire work with tuners has been done by group shooters at 100 and 200 yds where one can easily see the bullet holes and make tuner adjustments as necessary. You can't see your bullet holes at longer ranges so I don't know how you could ever make meaningful adjustments. I think time will show that barrel tuners are useful only to short range extreme accuracy shooters. Long range, hunting and tactical shooting? Forget it!

Later,

Gene Beggs

Hi Gene,
I disagree, but only with the long range part. Even if a tuner is never moved, it still has benefits. So, if one can be successful tuning w/o a tuner at long range, they can also be successful with a tuner, but enjoy the wider tune window they offer.--Mike

 

[TSI243]

Not quite right ---

It's a rainy day here in Houston ---

Gene Beggs my friend, i would like to disagree with your feeling that tuners are only useful on centerfire rifles used for short range bench rest.

I think that it was Browning that brought out their combination muzzle Break/ Tuner on their hunting guns -I don't remember what they call it ?? but it's available on Winchester rifles now as well. I know that Winchester and Browning are the same company now and that's why it's available on the Winchester rifles?? -- I think that their system is not offered by others because Browning patented the system.

I think that tuners are just now starting to make their entrance onto the long range scene as well -- Nick Marino is using one and doing quite well with it at his 600 yard F-class shoots.

I don't shoot long range that much but I do have one on my long range rifle -- A 300 WSM, and I find it to be quite effective.

In reality, Tuners are not all that prevalent yet even in short range benchrest -- It seems to me that if you look around at Nationals or the SS that less than 25% of the shooters are using them ?? perhaps less ??? I think that the only place that tuners are the norm is in the rimfire area ??

I think that time will show that tuners will continue to make inroads into short range benchrest, and that we will see more and more being used on long range rifles.

Hunting rifles ?? I don't know tuners may not make such a big splash there ??? perhaps because ultimate accuracy is not a requirement there ??

Gene Bukys

 

[mwezell]

Mike,
It has been a while since we have been at the same match. I hope to shoot more this summer, and to see you and your new tuner in person.

If there is one misconception about tuners that I would like to clear up more than any other…well, actually there are two that are related.

First is that the barrel should be moving slowly to be tuned. This is false. It needs to be moving rapidly for positive compensation. Probably more rapidly than most BR rifles are capable, without a muzzle mass.

Second, that the muzzle position, high or low, is important. This also is false. It is muzzle angle that is paramount.

For example, take a fishing rod and point it horizontally. Then rotate the grip quickly upward, as if to make a back cast with only your wrist, and no arm motion. This simulates the rotation that recoil causes in a rifle. The rod tip rises, but as it does so, it still points downward. Likewise, when the muzzle of a rifle reaches it highest point, it is still pointed low on the target.

Now, rotate the grip back down in time with the rod's natural tendency to whip back and forth. The tip continues to rise, even though the rest of the rod is accelerating downward. Notice that the tip is pointed highest some time later as it is traveling downward. So for the rifle barrel, the time we want bullets to exit is when the muzzle angle is rising, and we shouldn't care whether muzzle position is high or low or in the middle. Typical, stiff rifles need bullet exit timed to be near the time of maximum rate of muzzle angle change (angular velocity), which tends to be when the rest of the barrel is traveling downward the fastest.


Cheers,
Keith

Keith, again, unless I'm reading something wrong, we're still saying pretty much the same thing. I think you're referring to what's happening more behind the muzzle, that affects the angle, where I'm saying at the muzzle. I don't know if we agree about the barrel needing to be moving fast for positive compensation, but I'll take your word for it and I see what you're saying. Wouldn't a short stiff barrel move faster?

Nevertheless, results are what matter most. I'm completely satisfied with those. I am thankful we have people like you in this game that want to understand why and how tuners do what they do and are qualified to help figure that out.

My tuner is the result of utilizing proven designs along with a few features that separate it from them, but I think we can agree that whatever makes two washers tightened together near the muzzle work, also applies to mine.

 

[Gene Beggs]

There I go again,,,

Hi Gene,
I disagree, but only with the long range part. Even if a tuner is never moved, it still has benefits. So, if one can be successful tuning w/o a tuner at long range, they can also be successful with a tuner, but enjoy the wider tune window they offer.--Mike

,,,,,,talking about things I know nothing about. In this case, long range shooting.

I've been guilty before of making comments about things that are out of my area of expertise. I'll be more careful.

By the way, I would like to take this opportunity to say how impressed I've been with your knowledge, products, and the way you share your experience with others. You know what you're talking about!

Best of luck to you with all your ventures. Keep up the good work and stay in touch.

Later,

Gene Beggs

 

[mwezell]

It's a rainy day here in Houston ---

Gene Beggs my friend, i would like to disagree with your feeling that tuners are only useful on centerfire rifles used for short range bench rest.

I think that it was Browning that brought out their combination muzzle Break/ Tuner on their hunting guns -I don't remember what they call it ?? but it's available on Winchester rifles now as well. I know that Winchester and Browning are the same company now and that's why it's available on the Winchester rifles?? -- I think that their system is not offered by others because Browning patented the system.

I think that tuners are just now starting to make their entrance onto the long range scene as well -- Nick Marino is using one and doing quite well with it at his 600 yard F-class shoots.

I don't shoot long range that much but I do have one on my long range rifle -- A 300 WSM, and I find it to be quite effective.

In reality, Tuners are not all that prevalent yet even in short range benchrest -- It seems to me that if you look around at Nationals or the SS that less than 25% of the shooters are using them ?? perhaps less ??? I think that the only place that tuners are the norm is in the rimfire area ??

I think that time will show that tuners will continue to make inroads into short range benchrest, and that we will see more and more being used on long range rifles.

Hunting rifles ?? I don't know tuners may not make such a big splash there ??? perhaps because ultimate accuracy is not a requirement there ??

Gene Bukys

Gene, I'd say roughly half or a little more score shooters where I shoot use some type of tuner. Of course the 13.5lb weight limit makes any tuner easier to utilize without gun balance problems. I do agree that they are becoming more prevelant all the time. --M

 

[TSI243]

Mike

Seems this is my day to be disagreeable

Mike;
Im gonna have to disagree with you as well -- It is quite possible to put parts together with bolts or interference fits and they do in fact become one -- with no, None, Nada, movement between components, not the slightest bit of movement!!!
The bearing fit that you referred to came loose because you heated the race and it expanded and turned loose. but while it was shrunk onto the shaft there was no movement between the race and shaft it was sitting on if it in fact had an interference fit!!

I work with shrink fits all the time and if done properly the parts do in fact become one -- so will a bolted joint

Now having said all that I don't know if my pinch bolt on my tuners is that tight ?? it might actually move some at some microscopic level. But I don't think so !! it is a solid joint and will not ever change unless I loosen the pinch bolt.

Gene Bukys

 

[mwezell]

,,,,,,talking about things I know nothing about. In this case, long range shooting.

I've been guilty before of making comments about things that are out of my area of expertise. I'll be more careful.

By the way, I would like to take this opportunity to say how impressed I've been with your knowledge, products, and the way you share your experience with others. You know what you're talking about!

Best of luck to you with all your ventures. Keep up the good work and stay in touch.

Later,

Gene Beggs

Thank you very much Gene! Keith is more qualified but I listen, read, and try to learn about things that interest me....and I put my money where my mouth is. I don't mind trying new things. I have been consciously trying not to speak unless it's something I feel like I have tested and at least proven to my own satisfaction, to be worthy of talking about.

Problem is, I'm more of a ky hillbilly than an engineer, so I should probably be quiet more often.

 

[TSI243]

Tuner use

Mike
finally I agree ---

I think that if you were to walk onto the Tomball rifle range during a registered shoot you might well find that about half or even more of the competitors are in fact using tuners of some type -- so it's kinda regional
if a shooter is in an area where tuners are in wide use he will most likely go with a tuner --

I wonder if the score nationals had the same percentage of tuner usage ??

Gene