To Lynn..

P

pacecil

Guest
Looks like Wilbur or somebody just removed the thread on water in the bore so I'll just repeat my question. How and where in the bore are you detecting water? Are you finding it as drops or just a film that has formed in the bore? I assume you see the water when you look in the muzzle. Tell me if I'm wrong on this.
I'm "testing" the best I can but so far I haven't been able find water. I tried three different calibers (rimfire, K Hornet, and 6BR) and just haven't been able to find the water. The muzzle is dry and looking down the bore it also appears dry. The bore has "shiny" spots that might be water but I think this is just carbon, ash, or lead. Is this what you see as water?
I think some water should be left after firing so I guess I'm agreeing with you and Bill Calfee. I'm just having trouble running the tests that confirm this.
 
Man, Haven't you figured out that water in the bore is a Joke thing!!! Total BS
 
How do you collect it? I thought you or Bill said it wasn't done with a patch.
 
Lynn...

Okay, I can live with that - you can't tell. Can you tell me this - do you LOOK in the bore and SEE the water? Can you see it in the muzzle, which is the only place you could make a visual inspection with out a borescope.
 
Lynn..

I've looked in the case but could never find any evidence of water, so I'm ruling this out. I give up! Are you counting the chamber as part of the bore? Am I getting warm? Do you see water in the chamber?
 
Lynn..

I went back and read again your posts. You said: You collect the water from the entire bore Do you squeege the bore to collect the water?
 
Well now IF there IS water in the bore there is one test that WILL conclude that there IS Water in the bore. The name of the produce escapes me BUT those that deal in FUEL as in Gasoline have a paste (water find paste?) that will change colors when exposed to water. Lets remember for every gallon of gasoline we burn, we produce one gallon of WATER either vapor or liquid.

Mr Roy Cole a Texas boy and LR shooter had some problems with water in the bore (read rain) that caused problems for ever after with the bore and did not shoot very well in Canada at the Nationals.

Clarence
 
Calfee article

Calfee article in PS, the one on trigger relaxing I think, had a section on the water in the bore thing.

He said you push a lead slug down the bore and it pushed out the water.

Don't quote me on that - it is from memory(which ain't as good as it used to be)

From what i remember it said enough water would be pushed out to see it on the slug.

I am not sure I want to be involved in this discussion anyway....I've been "eye-poked" to near blindness as is.

Scott
 
Lynn..

Don't let others keep you away. This is just a conversation between you and me. Now, I think I may have solved the riddle. If you were to run a plastic patch thru the bore it would not absorb the water but would pick up water and other particles on it's surface and you would be able to see the water. Am I getting warmer?
 
Let's look at the physics of this...what is the temperature of the interior of the bore (and of course the air in the bore) vs. the dew point temperature? Unless the temperature is LESS than the dew point any water "in the bore" remains suspended in the air as water vapor. Sure there is "water in the bore", but it is water VAPOR not Dasani. It's the classic case of water droplets on the side of your cold beer glass on a hot humid day-a Coors Light commercial. The humid air next to the glass is cooled to less than the dew point and..voila!... condensation occurs.

Here is a real question - say it is 70 degrees ambient temperature - "cold" barrel - then one shot - what is the interior temperature of the bore? What is the temperature after, say 5 shots with one minute? Don't think any of those scenarios cause the air in the bore to drop below the dew point. In our little test the interior bore temperature would have to be LESS than 70 degrees...to do so would require the barrel's interior to COOL after a shot. Hmmm, not likely. Unless you use moly coated bullets!! :D

(Donovan - I think the water comes out of the exhaust only until the rear end of the exhaust warms up to above the dew point - once hot, there should be no visible water. You are correct there is water in those hot gases.)
 
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Top Secret

pacecil said:
Don't let others keep you away. This is just a conversation between you and me. Now, I think I may have solved the riddle. If you were to run a plastic patch thru the bore it would not absorb the water but would pick up water and other particles on it's surface and you would be able to see the water. Am I getting warmer?
Click to expand...

Paceil, Just a guess, but I think you would fire the rifle (# of shots?), then push a lead slug thru the bore and collect the residue on a patch.
 
To all ...

I appreciate everyone who has explained what happens during combustion. Here is a thread that I introduced some time ago. I know water exists after firing. The question I have is: How much has been detected and how do you detect it?

Water in bore....
I've decided to bring this up as a new thread considering all the hazards of dealing with an older thread on the same subject. To try and get this out of the weird discussions that develop in the other threads I'm putting some realistic numbers to it.
The water, or moisture content, in a normal 6PPC powder charge will be about .3 grains. This is all dissociated into hydrogen and oxygen upon firing and then some of it probably recombines back into water at the end of combustion. If the temperature of the gas left in the bore is cooled down then some of the water will condense out to coat the bore or it may form as drops of water in the bore. Typically the water that condenses would leave a coating on the bore about .00000000005 thick or a droplet .001 in diameter - or for example it might leave 3 or 4 drops .0007 in diameter.
It's possible also that the combustion gases would be cleared out and replaced with warm humid air and then this cooled down to further add moisture which again typically would double the amount left from the combustion gases. We could then end up with condensed moisture on the bore about .0000000001 thick or a number of droplets roughly .001 in diameter.
All this could reasonably be expected to happen if we had temperature changes of about 50F. With less change then less water would condense out of the gas or air. If you ran a patch through the bore it would pick up a coating of water about .0000000017 thick.
I leave it to the individual shooter to decide if he shoots in such a manner that this would happen, or to determine the effect of this amount of water on accuracy.
Oh, I forgot - if you want to apply this to rimfire, just reduce the numbers about 90%
 
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pacecil said:
I appreciate everyone who has explained what happens during combustion. Here is a thread that I introduced some time ago. I know water exists after firing. The question I have is: How much has been detected and how do you detect it?
Click to expand...
I thought about your post pacecil. I considered it to be serious at first, but then upon further consideration - the amount of moisture you describe would be undetectable. I've seen patches come out damp from a rimfire barrel. Ive never patched a center fire barrel in the time frame under discussion so I cannot speak to that. But it would make sense that the same phenomenon would occur in that instance.

But I have another question as far as this and accuracy. How is it that a small amount of moisture/water in the bore ahead of the rimfire bullet will have a "dramatic" effect upon the accuracy, but a rather large glop of misplaced off center wax will not?
So while I'm of the opinion that yes there is water vapor and condensate in the bore of the rifle, I'm not readily convinced that it's presence is the primary cause for the ruination of a good group.
 
So far in these discussions, unless I've missed something and that's entirely possible (I've not read all of it by any means), nobody has said anything about condensation due to pressure.

IFFFF I was to take part in a discussion such as this, I would consider the possibility that pressure is made in front of the accelerating bullet while in the bore, and that this is where any "condensation" would occur. Everyone seems to be looking at atmospheric conditions as the only way for water to leave the air. It is one way, but not realisticly the reason in these circumstances.

Much like an air compressor removing water from the air, I think this is a much more likely source/cause of condensation than is temperature. This also would be in front of the bullet as there is much more air in the bore than is in the cartridge case.

Of course, short of just not shooting bullets, I see no way to correct this so it's a back burner issue to me (at best)

------------------------------------------------------------

There is a term used for 1000 yard rifles that don't shoot very well. I'm sure it's common in PB benchrest also. I call them a 20" gun. If you have a gun that shoots 20", throw it away and start over. Kinda like owning a half inch ppc. Pretty much stay home with it till it's fixed.

Ever since I've been involved in benchrest, I've watched people with 20" guns looking to fix them by eliminating 1/8" problems (kinda like water in the bore).

A good rule of thumb is that when a problem is so small that leagues of people can't find, nor quantify it, it's a good bet you should spend your time looking elsewhere for fixes to accuracy related issues. In other words, I'd suspect that a broken scope, scope mount that moves, neck tension, improper lug engagement, bad bullet or a million other things would be a better bet to look for this "flipper" issue than water.
 
ScottD said:
Calfee article in PS, the one on trigger relaxing I think, had a section on the water in the bore thing.

He said you push a lead slug down the bore and it pushed out the water.

Don't quote me on that - it is from memory(which ain't as good as it used to be)

From what i remember it said enough water would be pushed out to see it on the slug.

I am not sure I want to be involved in this discussion anyway....I've been "eye-poked" to near blindness as is.

Scott
Click to expand...

That would be a simple test to try on a .22 rimfire ...

It may answer the question of water in the bore but determining how to get the best accuracy is not answered...
 
Donavan and Phil

I think this entire discussion started when someone asked about letting a round sit in a chamber, and if that had any affect on that bullet going into the group..
Several of us stated that it was common practice for experienced shooters to not do that, and also, if a lot of time elapsed between the next shot and the last, many of us would dump a round on the sighter, sort of a effort to keep the bore in the same condition for each shot.
Several hypothesis were given as to what was really going on, several, including myself, came up with the "cooked round" thing.
That is when Bill came on and said we were all wrong, that it had something to do with water in the bore.
If I am not mistaken, I then come back and said I didn't particularly care what the culprit was, I just knew what to do, and would continue doing it..
All of that lead to where we are at now.
Keep in mind,all of this really goes back to Bills fixation with the "stopped muzzle" idea. For the better part of two months, we have been bombarded with strange rantings,covering everything except what we all are looking for, actual proof that what he says will happen, can indeed happen.
In the mean time, many of us have gone about doing what we do, going to matches, shooting, and helping new shooters get started in the right direction in Benchrest with tried and true practices that are proven in Competition.........jackie
 
In one of Bill's PS articles he did mention the water in the bore. I don't remember which one it was. He fired a few rounds (don't remember the count), and then he pushed a slug through the bore. He collected the slug on a clean white patch. In front of the slug, he said there is a small droplet of water.

I am out of town, so I can't look back at his articles for that information.


Denny
 
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