The significance of tenon diameter

Gene Beggs

Active member
This extreme rifle accuracy study has been much like a giant jigsaw puzzle. When I first got into benchrest twenty years ago, I thought I knew a thing or two about rifles and accuracy. :rolleyes: I found out real quick, I knew very little. :eek:

Something I have noticed during the past many years is that bits and pieces of information come along and at the time, you know there is something very significant about it but you don't know where that piece of the puzzle fits. So you file it away in your mind thinking, "Someday, I'll discover where this fits." Such was the case recently with reduced tenon diameters.

My first Sporter was built on a beautiful stainless steel action, the stock was state-of-the-art graphite painted dark navy blue. It was beautiful and shot like you would not believe. At the time, the Stolle Panda was the most popular action and many of my friends used them. I soon noticed that the Panda would accept much higher pressures without encountering stiff bolt lift and 'click-at-the-top' extraction. I assumed the reason was due to the difference between aluminum and stainless steel. Wrong!

Only during the past few days have I understood what the real reason was; tenon diameter! :D Yep, the stainless steel action had a one inch tenon, the Panda is 1.062. The larger the tenon relative to the chamber diameter, the more pressure the rifle can take without experiencing tight cases.

This should have been obvious, but it has taken me twenty years to understand and I probably would have never figured it out if not for Stu Harvey. Thanks Stu. :eek: :)

After spending several days in the tunnel testing the barrel indexing system, I have arrived at the following conclusions;

1. The system works! Every barrel I have tested shoots best in one specific position.

2. The differentially threaded bushing system works but it is rather inconvenient to use and one must be willing to shoot reduced loads because of the smaller tenon.

3. The actions of today were not designed to be used with barrel indexing systems. Further advancements will come only when we have actions designed specifically for this purpose.


Later,

Gene Beggs
 
B.Johnson

As I asked in another post, would'nt going to the smaller dia. .222 help prove your tenon theory along with indexing for accurracy?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Can you tell - -

This extreme rifle accuracy study has been much like a giant jigsaw puzzle. When I first got into benchrest twenty years ago, I thought I knew a thing or two about rifles and accuracy. :rolleyes: I found out real quick, I knew very little. :eek:

Something I have noticed during the past many years is that bits and pieces of information come along and at the time, you know there is something very significant about it but you don't know where that piece of the puzzle fits. So you file it away in your mind thinking, "Someday, I'll discover where this fits." Such was the case recently with reduced tenon diameters.

My first Sporter was built on a beautiful stainless steel action, the stock was state-of-the-art graphite painted dark navy blue. It was beautiful and shot like you would not believe. At the time, the Stolle Panda was the most popular action and many of my friends used them. I soon noticed that the Panda would accept much higher pressures without encountering stiff bolt lift and 'click-at-the-top' extraction. I assumed the reason was due to the difference between aluminum and stainless steel. Wrong!

Only during the past few days have I understood what the real reason was; tenon diameter! :D Yep, the stainless steel action had a one inch tenon, the Panda is 1.062. The larger the tenon relative to the chamber diameter, the more pressure the rifle can take without experiencing tight cases.

This should have been obvious, but it has taken me twenty years to understand and I probably would have never figured it out if not for Stu Harvey. Thanks Stu. :eek: :)

After spending several days in the tunnel testing the barrel indexing system, I have arrived at the following conclusions;

1. The system works! Every barrel I have tested shoots best in one specific position.

2. The differentially threaded bushing system works but it is rather inconvenient to use and one must be willing to shoot reduced loads because of the smaller tenon.

3. The actions of today were not designed to be used with barrel indexing systems. Further advancements will come only when we have actions designed specifically for this purpose.


Later,

Gene Beggs




Gene, have you been able to determine, either visually or by measurement where any given barrel is likely to shoot at it's best from your work? Is it possible to determine this position without indexing to find it?

Thanks, Pete
 
If one wanted to make a test action, could one cut off the action threads of a round steel action, fine thread the outside of the remaining length of the front receiver ring, and fit an extension that could be of what ever diameter was needed to allow a standard diameter tenon to be used with an indexing bushing?
 
As I asked in another post, would'nt going to the smaller dia. .222 help prove your tenon theory along with indexing for accurracy?


Bruce, sorry I did not respond earlier to your suggestion to go with the .222 diameter cartridge.

Yes, that would solve the tenon diameter problem but we would be taking a giant step backward in cartridge design.

Gene Beggs
 
B.Johnson

The name is Bob, I thought the plan was to prove a theory. Why not work around the actions' available to see if that theory is sound. If you can't find a bigger action, find a smaller cartridge.
 
Gene, have you been able to determine, either visually or by measurement where any given barrel is likely to shoot at it's best from your work? Is it possible to determine this position without indexing to find it?

Thanks, Pete


Pete, it's anyone's guess. At one time, I was putting a dial indicator on the muzzle to determine where the runout was, placing this at the 6:00 o'clock position. I have not yet tried to determine if this correlates with the best position found by actual firing.

The barrel presently installed on my rifle, shoots best where point of impact is the highest, which suggests the curve is indexed 'up' at the 12:00 o'clock position.

At this point, I'm a little discouraged. :( I was elated to learn that the index bushing system works but very disappointed when I found the smaller diameter tenons would not take the pressure we benchresters use with the Lapua 220 Russian case.

I am now quite certain that no further progress will be made until we have an action built specifically for this application. It was my dream to be able to use most any existing action but that was not to be.

Later,

Gene beggs
 
The name is Bob, I thought the plan was to prove a theory. Why not work around the actions' available to see if that theory is sound. If you can't find a bigger action, find a smaller cartridge.


Bob, the theory has already been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt; barrel indexing works! What I'm working on now is finding the best way to implement it.

Gene Beggs
 
Maybe a different thread form.

radial-load-comparison.png


Good Hunting... from Varmint Al
coyotel.gif
 
Varmint Al,

Hello Sir,

I take it that you have been following the thread. I did a quick study on this thread form, and it seems like you might be spot on for curing the problem, or the bump in the road.

Will this thread form take up the slack of the loss in tenon (chamber) strength?

Would this differential threaded bushing be purchased, or produced locally?

Thank you,
longshooter
 
radial-load-comparison.png


Good Hunting... from Varmint Al
coyotel.gif


Al, thanks for the input.

After reading about the Spiralok thread in Vaughn's book, I used it on several barrels but could see no advantage.

It may be that with the small diameter, short tenons used on the Remington 700 type actions the Spiralok thread might offer an advantage but not with the larger, longer tenons used on most custom benchrest actions.

I don't believe the threads have anything to do with the tight case problem I encountered with the smaller diameter tenons of .800 and .900.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene

The problem with adding more OD to the action in order to increase the ID Thread Diameter is weight. Most of us have very little to spare on weight with a standard action that we are using now.

As with a lot of things, shooters will have to weigh all of the downsides to an idea as opposed the hassles involved.

I am pretty sure that there is merit to barrel indexing. But I set barrels back on a regular basis, and they all shoot the same as before, and I am sure I don't hit that magic spot everytime. Maybe I am just lucky........jackie
 
The problem with adding more OD to the action in order to increase the ID Thread Diameter is weight. Most of us have very little to spare on weight with a standard action that we are using now.

As with a lot of things, shooters will have to weigh all of the downsides to an idea as opposed the hassles involved.

I am pretty sure that there is merit to barrel indexing. But I set barrels back on a regular basis, and they all shoot the same as before, and I am sure I don't hit that magic spot everytime. Maybe I am just lucky........jackie


Thank you Jackie. You're right, weight is always something that must be considered when trying to stay within 10.5 lbs.

Gene Beggs
 
I have done extensive

tests on sprirallock threadforms in my prior life. It is a recipe for galling if they are made exactly correct. (if not they dont work) Stainless barrels in stainless or alloy receivers will be a problem. Surface stress in the thread will be very high and most likely gall. We even had troubles with stainless in aluminum.
 
Save those solutions!!

Do you get the idea that lately there are a awful lot solutions in search of problems..........jackie

Jackie, after the election, we may need some of those solutions that do not have a problem to address because there are going to be plenty of problems, regardless the election outcome!!
 
Jerry, unfortunate,

but I am afraid very true. If anyone wants a good gas gun, I wouldnt lolygag around before I bought one.
 
to Gene Beggs on tenon dia.

I am just getting started in this sport and I have been reading and paying close attention to my mentors. I am reluctant to ask this since I have vertually zero experience... but I guess one will not learn if one will not ask questions. You say increasing tenon diameter helps with higher pressures but there is a trade-off of increased weight....has anyone tried making an action/tenon out of Titanium??? I am NOT a metalergist but I thought I would throw the question out there. Heck I'm not even sure what a tenon is but I thought I'd take a shot at it.

Bill (canis lupus)
 
I am just getting started in this sport and I have been reading and paying close attention to my mentors. I am reluctant to ask this since I have vertually zero experience... but I guess one will not learn if one will not ask questions. You say increasing tenon diameter helps with higher pressures but there is a trade-off of increased weight....has anyone tried making an action/tenon out of Titanium??? I am NOT a metalergist but I thought I would throw the question out there. Heck I'm not even sure what a tenon is but I thought I'd take a shot at it.

Bill (canis lupus)


Bill, titanium has been used to make rifle actions. McMillan at one time made a hunting rifle with a titanium receiver. I'm not aware of one that is made for benchrest shooting.

Like you, I am not a metalurgist.

Gene Beggs
 
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