The dreaded flier disease.....

goodgrouper

tryingtobeabettergrouper
Well, we shot our first match of the year up here in Utah last weekend at Springville and there were some great shooting going on but unfortunately, it was not on my target frame! Actually, I shot well but my agg's didn't show it because I ran back into the problem of fliers in just about every match and I felt they weren't my fault. I played the game extra cautious at 200 yards and fired at least one sighter before every record shot and I never started on the record until the sighters were touching and they were where I expected they'd be. In this manner, I was able to make almost all of my groups have at least three bullets touching and sometimes four but darn if I could get five. I could tell something just wasn't right. The conditions were not that tricky and I practice at this range on a weekly basis so I know what to expect.

But before I get into that, let me backup a bit. I have had this re-occuring flier problem for the past 14 months. I narrowed the problem down to bags. I even posted some threads about what bags to use with an Edge stock here on benchrestcentral several times. Well, at first my rear bag was too mushy. It sagged enough that I had to really tighten up my front side screws and I don't like that because that in itself can cause fliers. Then I switched to a bunny ear Protektor bag which is what I have been using for the past three matches. Only problem that I saw was that the ears on this bag were not wide enough apart to allow the stock to nestle down between them. But I was assured by many that that would be ok so long as the stock was "imprinted" into the bags and pressed hard until no more "squish" could be felt. So that is how I shot it. But during the Cactus, I noticed some fliers but the conditions were too nasty to really narrow it down to a remaining bag problem. But at Springville last week, the conditions were good and the fliers came back. Well, halfway through the match, Jack Snyder (maker of the wonderful Edgewood bags) pointed out that my ears were way too hard and that backed up what Jim Erickson had told me in practice a few weeks before. So, I let out some sand halfway through the match and my four shot groups shrunk considerably. However, the fliers remained. And even more puzzling, they always were on the either the 4th or 5th shot. So that has got to be me misreading the conditions right? Well, I thought so at first but remembered that I had shot a sighter before every record shot and they were spot on. Then without a condition change, I would go to the record quickly and the shot would drop out.

Puzzled, I evaluated my dilema after the match. Why the flier and why the fifth shot? It soon occured to me that in my haste to get that fifth shot on the record, I was working my bolt extra fast and hard and that was slightly upsetting my gun sitting on top of the bunny ears of my bag. This would result in the bags becoming disturbed and causing the gun to recoil different ever so slightly.

To correct this, I borrowed a buddy's Gator bag this week with a 1/2" gap inbetween the ears made for the Edge stocks. I pressed it down into the gap and it fit like a glove. It slides beautifully with no hangups of any kind. Best of all, I can work the bolt as fast as I want or as hard as I want and the gun doesn't try to torque in the bags. So, I set up to shoot several groups yesterday at the same range and I lucked out because the conditions were identical to what they were during our match. I used the same load and held the same amount to form the groups. Well, I'm happy to say, that the gun was shooting pretty well and there were no fliers finally!! Now I know this is just a couple of groups on one day but it is very promising. Time will tell if the groups stay good but I'm optimistic which is the absolute opposite of what I was on the day I packed up my gear and came home from the match. The frustration level of having a flier ruin a great group when you know you did your part to prevent it was really hammering me hard.

I will keep updating this thread with new news as I continue shooting this bag and stock combination.

Here's a few pics to illustrate my story: Fliers from the match
flyer1.jpg

flyer2.jpg

flyer3.jpg

and the one that almost killed me:
flyer4.jpg

flyer5.jpg

match4.jpg


And here's a pic of the Gator and stock. I sure wish someone would have told me 14 months ago this is how Edge's need to fit to shoot! I could have saved some serious headaches and greenbacks!
gatorbag.jpg


And here's the worst group I shot with the Gator yesterday. I took pics of the other four groups that were better but the flash bleached them out.
noflyer.jpg
 
Last edited:
It has been my experience that bags that look that good are great for taking pictures. Bags that aren't so good in the pictures seem to be better for the shooting.

Paul
 
It ain't the bags.

You really buy into all of that crap about "bags too hard", and "the rifle isn't sitting perfect", and all of that other baloney that is designed to sell products, not shoot aggs.
I hate to be the one to say it, but your Rifle simply isn't working, and you need to pay better attention to the conditions. You say you "did your part", well, your groups say the opposite.
Why do I say that the Rifle isn't working. Good Grief, you have between .5 and .8 of verticle in most of those groups, and the ones that are flat, it is obvious that the push simply got you.
You probably have a mediocre barrel at best, or your tune is pretty far off.
Just because some of the groups are flat is not an indication that the Rifle is tuned. That is a miss-conception that many shooters have.. You were probably shooting in a rather straight accross condition, which will give flat groups that look like what you have, flat, but big. If you have to hold at all, the verticle comes in, and you end up with what you have in the others..
Your targets say that you need to get a better handle on the conditions, and get your Rifle working. The reason you do not want to believe this is because those two aspects of Benchrest are the most difficult to get right.........jackie
 
Jackie...agg difference at 100 vs 200 yds..

Jackie...looking at some of the results of matches posted on this website and IBS shows 100 yard aggs in the .2xx" and the aggs at 200 are also in the
.2xx"
My question is how in the heck can a rifle that aggs in the twos at 100 still agg in the twos at 200...???

I have a HV 6ppc that will agg in the low twos at 100, but usually aggs in the 3s and 4s at 200...

I would expect a rifle and shooter combo that can shoot a .4xx or .5xx group
at 200 yards would be capable of agging in the mid to high .1xx at 100...

I need to go and observe some of the larger matches like the Bluebonnet to get my mind around how the 200 yard agg is so close to the 100 yard agg...
Yes, I know that the 200 yard agg is adjusted to MOA...
 
Well...

Grouper,

I tend to agree with Jackie.....

Mostly on the conditions part. "Mostly" 4 in one out.......... Can be a touch of bench technique but mostly angle and velocity changes that at times can be nearly invisible to read with ANY wind flag especially @200.

The groups do show some promise... You know the answer.... Practice A LOT...

Good Luck,
cale
 
You really buy into all of that crap about "bags too hard", and "the rifle isn't sitting perfect", and all of that other baloney that is designed to sell products, not shoot aggs.
I hate to be the one to say it, but your Rifle simply isn't working, and you need to pay better attention to the conditions. You say you "did your part", well, your groups say the opposite.
Why do I say that the Rifle isn't working. Good Grief, you have between .5 and .8 of verticle in most of those groups, and the ones that are flat, it is obvious that the push simply got you.
You probably have a mediocre barrel at best, or your tune is pretty far off.
Just because some of the groups are flat is not an indication that the Rifle is tuned. That is a miss-conception that many shooters have.. You were probably shooting in a rather straight accross condition, which will give flat groups that look like what you have, flat, but big. If you have to hold at all, the verticle comes in, and you end up with what you have in the others..
Your targets say that you need to get a better handle on the conditions, and get your Rifle working. The reason you do not want to believe this is because those two aspects of Benchrest are the most difficult to get right.........jackie


Jackie,
then you don't believe bags can be too hard or too soft? I have to say that the vast majority of seasoned benchrest competitors I have talked to believe the bags must be just right.

What do you mean the rifle isn't working? The whole gun or barrel or what?
I admit this barrel is not a hummer, but it shoots competitive.

The load shoots in the ones at 100 quite frequently. I think it is in tune. It likes a square mark and 28.9 to 29.2 grains of N133 which is pretty common around these parts.

It could be true that I need to get a better handle on the conditions but the vertical I had was pretty common in most the groups everyone shot that day. There was pretty fair mirage and up/down pushes. But perhaps the bags were to squishy and giving vertical. All I know is that it helped to switch to a bag that gave lateral support.
 
Grouper,

I tend to agree with Jackie.....

Mostly on the conditions part. "Mostly" 4 in one out.......... Can be a touch of bench technique but mostly angle and velocity changes that at times can be nearly invisible to read with ANY wind flag especially @200.

The groups do show some promise... You know the answer.... Practice A LOT...

Good Luck,
cale

Cale,
You are right about the invisible stuff going on at 200. There were times where certain people's windprobes showed pushes that flag tails did not.
 
Last edited:
I tend to agree with Jackie about the bags not being such a big deal.

I have been through about 6 rear bags and 3 front bags looking for the right set up for me, convinced that there had to be something in a "perfect" fit. I settled on Edgeood Original rear bag and an Edgewood front bag because the height of the rear bag suits my stock and the front bags holds the forend very nicely.

I have shot my rifle off the Edgewood with the stock held firmly side to side but resting on the main body of the bag and also off Protektor bags with bunny ears with no gap and mid height ears with a two stitch gap, those two shoot just the same as the Edgewood rear bag. I use the Edgewood because the lower heights keeps the rifle lower over the rests which seems like a good idea and because it looks good !

I shot my rifle today with a barrel with 1100 rounds on it and to test a comment that was made here a few weeks back I wound the side tension up good and tight. Shot a 0.145, 0.155 and a 0.190 !! I don't think the whole side tension on the forend is that big a deal so long as the rifle isn't sticky and jerky on the bags, it doesn't seem to need to move super slick.

Bryce
 
In your previous thread, someone posted Speedy's instrucions for bag selection and filling. Did you follow them to the letter? Sometimes the pursuit of tracking can hurt accuracy. Also, your groups have more of a weather report look. Do you tune at 200?
 
And here's the worst group I shot with the Gator yesterday. I took pics of the other four groups that were better but the flash bleached them out.
noflyer.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Now thats a real shame !
 
What I Mean

When the Rifle isn't working, everything is magnified. Subtle changes in the conditions produce big results on the target, usually in the verticle, or sometimes against the condition.
I have tried several bag combinations and settled backwith the old Bald Eagle and 1 inch Do-Nut that Jay Lynn Gore built me about five years ago. That rear bag is so settled it is hard as a rock.
I amjust saying that all of this bag thing is mostly wishfull thinking, when the real culprit in poor performance is the tune.
When I say the Rifle isn't working, that is what I am talking about. I assume you have a well built, honest to goodness Benchrest Rifle assembled from the common aray of state of the art parts. If it is mechanically sound, then your tune is no where in the ball park.
Why do you think many of us literally spend hours at the range. Sure, it is to practice, but it is also learning how to keep the Rifle agging over an entire aggregate.
I know all of the books and many HOF shooters say that this bag set-up thing is so important, as was mentioed, Speedy wrote a good article on it. But, I have shot with Speedy when his tune was gone, and all of the bag handling, concentration, and Bench Technique in the world didn't help squat. Bad tune produces big groups, much like what you are getting.
Of course, this is just my opinion. You can keep playing around with all of that stuff, trying to get the bags "just right". and your time will be wasted untill you learn to tune the Rifle, and keep it there.
I go to a lot of matches, and look at a lot of targets. I still stand by my statement that at any given time, 75 percent of the Rifles on the line are not in a competitive tune.
The targets tell the story.........jackie
 
In your previous thread, someone posted Speedy's instrucions for bag selection and filling. Did you follow them to the letter? Sometimes the pursuit of tracking can hurt accuracy. Also, your groups have more of a weather report look. Do you tune at 200?

I don't know if I followed Speedy's procedure. It wouldn't much matter to me what he does unless he is shooting something similiar to my rig.

My routine is to press the stock down into the bag hard to eliminate the squish. Then I put the crosshair on the sighter mothball and slide the gun back and forth until the dot comes back onto the sighter in the same place everytime. Once it stops shifting, I shoot. I use teflon tape to get a smooth recoil.

I do tune at 200 and then check it at 100.
 
When the Rifle isn't working, everything is magnified. Subtle changes in the conditions produce big results on the target, usually in the verticle, or sometimes against the condition.
I have tried several bag combinations and settled backwith the old Bald Eagle and 1 inch Do-Nut that Jay Lynn Gore built me about five years ago. That rear bag is so settled it is hard as a rock.
I amjust saying that all of this bag thing is mostly wishfull thinking, when the real culprit in poor performance is the tune.
When I say the Rifle isn't working, that is what I am talking about. I assume you have a well built, honest to goodness Benchrest Rifle assembled from the common aray of state of the art parts. If it is mechanically sound, then your tune is no where in the ball park.
Why do you think many of us literally spend hours at the range. Sure, it is to practice, but it is also learning how to keep the Rifle agging over an entire aggregate.
I know all of the books and many HOF shooters say that this bag set-up thing is so important, as was mentioed, Speedy wrote a good article on it. But, I have shot with Speedy when his tune was gone, and all of the bag handling, concentration, and Bench Technique in the world didn't help squat. Bad tune produces big groups, much like what you are getting.
Of course, this is just my opinion. You can keep playing around with all of that stuff, trying to get the bags "just right". and your time will be wasted untill you learn to tune the Rifle, and keep it there.
I go to a lot of matches, and look at a lot of targets. I still stand by my statement that at any given time, 75 percent of the Rifles on the line are not in a competitive tune.
The targets tell the story.........jackie

Jackie,
I appreciate your response.

My rifle is a Viper action, Edge stock, krieger barrel, Leupold 36x, jewel trigger.

I can't understand why you feel these are bad groups (minus the fliers of course!) because the sizes of them were: .569, .300, .189, .443, .497. .462, .504, and .531". I had two groups that didn't have fliers but they were shot in really ugly conditions when I couldn't get two sighters to touch and the groups were over an inch. The fellows who won the 200 yard HV and LV shot a .259 and a .238 agg. So I would have been right there in the running with them if my fliers would have not happened. If these are such bad aggs and apparently all three of our guns were out of tune, I would sure like to see what kind of aggs you fellas down in Texas are getting at 200. I'm not saying that to be sarcastic, I am saying it because I am curious. I know the wind blows hard in Texas so you guys must have learned things that us Utahns haven't learned in our wind.
 
Like Jackie, I shoot a hard rear bag. In the recent past I have used a stiffly constructed front bag, and filled it fairly full. That did improve tracking, I also used to worry if my stock was suspended above the body of the rear bag between the ears. I took the advice that one of the bags needs to have some give, and from another shooter (HOF member) that it would be better if the stock rode the ears and didn't touch between them, and things improved. My current front bag is of simple Cordura, and when the side tension is backed off it looks pretty underfilled. I probably have lost some tracking precision, but when in tune, I don't have a flier problem. This isn't the first time I have had this happen. Several years ago I was using one of the Hoehn windage tops (still do, different style bag) that has a thin folded bag that was filled pretty loose. I figured that if I put in more sand that I would get better tracking. I did, but along with it came about a bullet hole of vertical, that went away when I poured a little sand back out of the bag. BTW Jackie has been shooting so well for so long that his recent experience with what doesn't work may be said to be a bit sketchy. I, on the other hand, have a wealth of experience in that department,:D
 
Flyer hole looks strange

Is is just me, or does the flyer look like it keyholed or hit the paper at an oblique angle?
 
Like Jackie, I shoot a hard rear bag. In the recent past I have used a stiffly constructed front bag, and filled it fairly full. That did improve tracking, I also used to worry if my stock was suspended above the body of the rear bag between the ears. I took the advice that one of the bags needs to have some give, and from another shooter (HOF member) that it would be better if the stock rode the ears and didn't touch between them, and things improved. My current front bag is of simple Cordura, and when the side tension is backed off it looks pretty underfilled. I probably have lost some tracking precision, but when in tune, I don't have a flier problem. This isn't the first time I have had this happen. Several years ago I was using one of the Hoehn windage tops (still do, different style bag) that has a thin folded bag that was filled pretty loose. I figured that if I put in more sand that I would get better tracking. I did, but along with it came about a bullet hole of vertical, that went away when I poured a little sand back out of the bag. BTW Jackie has been shooting so well for so long that his recent experience with what doesn't work may be said to be a bit sketchy. I, on the other hand, have a wealth of experience in that department,:D

Boyd, I hear ya on the bags. The ears on my bag are rock hard too and the ears on the Gator I borrowed were pretty hard as well. The only difference was that the Gator allowed the stock to nestle down in and be supported and my bag suspends the stock above the bag proper like yours did. I also hear you on the different views of benchresters. You can ask 10 different benchresters a question and you will get 12 different answers sometimes!:confused: Well, ok, maybe not 12 but surely 10!
 
Is is just me, or does the flyer look like it keyholed or hit the paper at an oblique angle?

If you are referring to the hole way down at the bottom of the gator group, it is not a bullet but a piece of shrapnel. Someone at the range decided to shoot some Tannerite right next to my target holder! It went boom and put weird holes in everyone's targets.
 
I went out and shot again today and am happy to report no fliers again using the Gator bag. The winds were almost reminiscent of Sunday at the Cactus '08. 15 mph to 20 mph with gusts over 20 at times. But there were no shots that went someplace the flags said they shouldn't. I kept the same load as the last outing and the match last week. I think she is in tune and has been all along. It's just too big of a coincidence that as soon as I switched bags my fliers went away.
Here is what happened today when you didn't watch the flags:
windcondition.jpg


And here is holding and picking in the same condition:
gatorgroup2.jpg


And another good one shot later on the sighter:
gatorgroup3.jpg


And for fun, here's a fly that tempted me a bit too long...
It may not have been 15 mph exactly when I pulled the trigger but it was still blowing pretty hard.
200ydfly.jpg
 
Jackie...looking at some of the results of matches posted on this website and IBS shows 100 yard aggs in the .2xx" and the aggs at 200 are also in the
.2xx"
My question is how in the heck can a rifle that aggs in the twos at 100 still agg in the twos at 200...???...

200 and 300 yard aggs are normalized to their 100 yard equivalents by dividing by the multiple of 100 yards. In other words, divide the 200 yard agg by 2 and the numbers will make sense.
 
Back
Top