Tension/Compression barrels, water-cooled, etc

[jackie schmidt]

I don't know if I am hijacking or not but scold me if I am. I read an article on the Sunnen HTE1600u honing machine that has been developed for barrel work. Frank Green has one he has been using it for a while now and has another on order. Is this going to change the barrel business? Will this make barrels better or will it make them cheaper or both? What do you think? I don't know who said this it may have been Frank Green. But it was said that "I can teach a guy to lap barrels and he will have to lap a hundred before I will know if he will ever be any good at it." Does this machine eliminate the hand lap process?

Just a guess, but I would say it removes the human factor, mainly the inconsistencies that can be a result of an individule craftsman performing an operation over and over again that is predicated on his ability.

Is the Machine better? In the World of mass production, where you have a limited amount of material and labor cost that can be dedicated to a particulat product, yes. When you look at the amount of work involved in getting a high precision rifle barrel ready to ship, it's amazing they are able to sell them, and make a profit, at the price we pay.

Anything that the manufacturer can do to produce a product that is equal in all respects at a lower cost is a win win. That is how the real world of manufacturing works.

Look at the videos of modern assembly lines, especially in the automobile industry. Not a whole lot of people involved.

Now, before everybody jumps on me for suggesting that there is something wrong with a skilled person doing the lapping, that is not what I am suggesting. In the end, the skilled craftsman will produce the same results. But then, he has to do it again, and again, and again. He gets tired. He can be thinking of something else. He can, (god forbid), say.......That's good enough".

What if you get the barrel he was working on Friday Afternoon when he's thinking about getting to his kid's football game that eavning. Whether we like it or not, that can be a reality.

The Machine does not have kids. The Machine will give verifiable results.

The only question is, are these results equal to the what the skilled craftsman can produce.

We will see.

 

[jbhotrod]

Do yall think we'll ever see Wire EDM applied to precision rifle barrels? Does it have the potential to be as good as cut? I think they already do some pistol barrels this way correct me if wrong..

 

[mwezell]

I think the hones have limited but positive affects on cut rifled barrels, but buttoned barrels can be a different story. Too smooth a finish actually great INCREASES to force needed to pull(or push) a button through a given size hole due to more surface contact and less lube held by the smoother finish. It makes a HUGE difference. Another instance of things NOT being as they would seem, on the surface. Pun intended., but a serious point that is counterintuitive until you think a bit more about the subject.

 

[Butch Lambert]

I doubt you will see wire EDM for barrel bores. I can't see any advantage to it. The Sunnen hones are used to do a light hone after drilling and reaming the bore. You are not limited to "grit" size in honing.
Jackie, I could see your point on the lap after rifling, but not after the drill and ream.

 

[jbhotrod]

How about ECM? I know a Austrian company, Ritter & Stark is using electrochemical rifling process for their barrels. S&W also for the pistol barrels AFAIK..

 

[Butch Lambert]

How about ECM? I know a Austrian company, Ritter & Stark is using electrochemical rifling process for their barrels. S&W also for the pistol barrels AFAIK..

From my information it ain't to BR or competition standards at this time. Kinda in the quality of hammer forged.

 

[brickeyee]

How about ECM? I know a Austrian company, Ritter & Stark is using electrochemical rifling process for their barrels. S&W also for the pistol barrels AFAIK..

Nowlin has been using ECM on .45 barrels.

I have a couple in 1911s.

They have a complete mirror finish even in a borescope.

Sharp edges and completely polished.

It IS going to be a tough fight in a longer smaller rifle barrel though.

Using a smaller electrode tip on a longer insulating tube to deliver electrolyte is going to be a challenge.

It is also not exactly a high speed process.

Probbaly slower than even EDM and that is not known for speed.

One of the main advantages is precision and surface finish though.

 

[jbhotrod]

Nowlin has been using ECM on .45 barrels.

I have a couple in 12911s.

They have a complete mirror finish even in a borescope.

Sharp edges and completley polished.

It IS going to be a tough fight in a longer smaller rifle barrel though.

Using a smaller electrode tip on a longer insulating tube to deliver electrolyte is going to be a challenge.

It is also not exactly a high speed process.

Probbaly slower than even EDM and that is not known for speed.

One of the main advantages is precision and surface finish though.

Id a reckoned there was a reason we dont hardly see noone using EDM or ECM for rifle barrels, thanks for your input Mr Lambert and everyone else. So with that said, do you think theres much seperating single point cut rifling and ECM when it comes to high end pistol barrels?

Kinda strange that Ive seen quite a few proponents of CHF claim that hammer forging has the potential to be the most accurate and consistent of the processes yet in practice that dont really play out. Even though Ive heard they were shooters, BR hall of famers aint exactly clamoring for old Sako PPC barrels to throw on their rigs. The cut rifled barrels are far and away the most popular nowadays(excluding rimfire), maybe with the exception of a pristine original Mcmillan tube. Certainly its because with a glance at most equipment lists, the cut barrels are winning nearly everything.

 

[Butch Lambert]

Id a reckoned there was a reason we dont hardly see noone using EDM or ECM for rifle barrels, thanks for your input Mr Lambert and everyone else. So with that said, do you think theres much seperating single point cut rifling and ECM when it comes to high end pistol barrels?

Kinda strange that Ive seen quite a few proponents of CHF claim that hammer forging has the potential to be the most accurate and consistent of the processes yet in practice that dont really play out. Even though Ive heard they were shooters, BR hall of famers aint exactly clamoring for old Sako PPC barrels to throw on their rigs. The cut rifled barrels are far and away the most popular nowadays(excluding rimfire), maybe with the exception of a pristine original Mcmillan tube. Certainly its because with a glance at most equipment lists, the cut barrels are winning nearly everything.

JB, who is the CHF?
Technology is moving along in a very quick way, but can't see how a person could cut the grooves in a barrel, maybe it the rifling was straight and not in a twist.

 

[TRA]

JB, who is the CHF?
Technology is moving along in a very quick way, but can't see how a person could cut the grooves in a barrel, maybe it the rifling was straight and not in a twist.

Daniels has been hammer forging barrels for the military. He does the chamber and the bore w/rifling all at once. It looks more like a swaging process than a hammer forge, but that's one of the future processes that will surely be perfected over time.

 

[jbhotrod]

JB, who is the CHF?
Technology is moving along in a very quick way, but can't see how a person could cut the grooves in a barrel, maybe it the rifling was straight and not in a twist.

CHF = cold hammer forged

 

[jbhotrod]

From what I've read, a lot of hammer forged barrels come off the mandrel needing to be straightened. But that the ones that don't need straightening shoot quite good.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Aren't quite a few commercial barrels, (maybe a majority), produce by the rotary hammer forged method?

I've never seen this in person, but have seen detailed videos of rotary hammer forgers, and the tungsten carbide mandrel that is used to impregnate the lands, grooves, and even the chamberin in the ID. Very sophisticated, and very expensive, but obviously cost affective when considering the requirements of the finished product.

From what I have read, residule stress is the problem when using this method in the manufacturing of barrels intended for extreme accuracy use. This stress is a non issue when dealing with Rifles that might be fired 10 times a year, but a deal killer in a Rifle that is fired 10 times in 10 minutes.

 

[Butch Lambert]

Daniels has been hammer forging barrels for the military. He does the chamber and the bore w/rifling all at once. It looks more like a swaging process than a hammer forge, but that's one of the future processes that will surely be perfected over time.

I should have been a little more clear. I meant I cannot see how you could wire EDM a barrel with rifling. Hammer forging has been around for many years. I believe the Germans were the first in 1939. Button rifling was perfected at Remington in the 1940s.
I have no opinions on Daniel as I've never heard of them.

 

[jbhotrod]

Maybe hes talking about Daniel Defense Mr Butch? They strictly do ARs, very nice high quality ARs especially at their mid-range pricing, but ARs nonetheless with no relevance to real precision shooting.
Anyhow, nother question for yall, why are the small gain twists used? Ie 1-15 to 1-14 and such. Why not larger gains? Or even a zero twist to whatever desired end twist? Have the smaller gains proven to shoot better?

 

[Butch Lambert]

Maybe hes talking about Daniel Defense Mr Butch? They strictly do ARs, very nice high quality ARs especially at their mid-range pricing, but ARs nonetheless with no relevance to real precision shooting.
Anyhow, nother question for yall, why are the small gain twists used? Ie 1-15 to 1-14 and such. Why not larger gains? Or even a zero twist to whatever desired end twist? Have the smaller gains proven to shoot better?

I know about hammer forging. My question or statement was in regards to wire EDM. Unless new tech is available ain't going to be any wire EDM. Maybe yall can answer your question on gain twist. I understand the idea, but don't know if it is a real advantage.

 

[NezRongero]

Maybe hes talking about Daniel Defense Mr Butch? They strictly do ARs, very nice high quality ARs especially at their mid-range pricing, but ARs nonetheless with no relevance to real precision shooting.
Anyhow, nother question for yall, why are the small gain twists used? Ie 1-15 to 1-14 and such. Why not larger gains? Or even a zero twist to whatever desired end twist? Have the smaller gains proven to shoot better?

I am shooting a 13 to 6 1/2 gsin twist to shoot the 90 VLD at 1000 yards. It shoots real well, never shot clean, but mid 190s, then again it is just a 20 inch 223 AR 15 with irons, prone and sling.

The twist is what Bartlein came up with.

 

[R.G. Robinett]

Though a little foggy, as I recall, in the early days of IBS 1,000 Yd. BR, on his 1K Yd. rigs, Charles Bailey selected a bullet/velocity/barrel/twist combination, and tuned it via tension: he did quite well, and told me that results repeatable. Except in "unlimited", due to weight restrictions, probably not workable in point-blank BR. Charles Ellertson and Joel Kendrick also achieved competitive results via tensioned barrels. RG

 

[jbhotrod]

Though a little foggy, as I recall, in the early days of IBS 1,000 Yd. BR, on his 1K Yd. rigs, Charles Bailey selected a bullet/velocity/barrel/twist combination, and tuned it via tension: he did quite well, and told me that results repeatable. Except in "unlimited", due to weight restrictions, probably not workable in point-blank BR. Charles Ellertson and Joel Kendrick also achieved competitive results via tensioned barrels. RG

Do you think they wouldnt have acclompished the same thing with the same barrel minus the tension?

 

[Wilbur]

I seem to remember that Charles Ellertson tried it both ways with the same barrel and the tensioned deal shot a little better. Neither shot really really great.

I'll go ahead and write what I think about this. You can print this post and trade it for a cup of coffee...along with $2. People have tried different things over the years, searching for a better way, and few are conclusive. "Standard" rifles seem to be in the majority in the winner's circle....and more often the standard rifle is cheaper to build and easier to sell if it won't win.