Stopping the muzzle, Calfee

I'm gonna' take a stab at defining "stopping the muzzle"............ Lord Help Me :rolleyes:


The way I see it is this........


Tie a rope to a tree.

Pull it out like a jump rope.

Shake it.

If you play with the "shake speed" and the tension you're "tuning" the rope just like a gun barrel. If you're good you can get the rope to settle into 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 or 5 "harmonized nodes" such that there will be several spots on the rope that you could touch with your finger and they would be "stopped"..............you could pinch the rope and not affect the nodes because they're effectively NOT MOVING. The anti-nodes on the other hand are flopping up and down in between each node.


What a tuner does is set the muzzle (actually the bullet exit point) right on a node either by extending a false muzzle FORWARD (heavy weight-forward tuner, Calfee) or by otherwise redirecting force OUTWARD ("focusing ring", Beggs) to achieve the same affect.


In both cases I find no reason (except butt-headed cantankerousity :D ) not to call the muzzle "stopped".......now the tricky little side bar to this "stopped" is that the barrel is actually bent just like a sine wave so that the "stopped" muzzle is like a ring with a slinky attached to it............when the slinky pipe (anti-node) behind it is DOWN then the bullet is launched UP through the muzzle. When the barrel behind the node is UP, the launch angle is DOWN through the "stopped" muzzle exit hole.


Thus, tuning.



Big Al,


The reason for the stepped mauser barrels was for ease of manufacture in wartime conditions, it had nothing to do with tuning. I got this from Franz Achleitner a third generation arms builder directly from Germany. He had folks in many of the actual mfgng plants.



al
 
Alinwa

Whatcha think is the result of that tricky up/down part you mentioned?

Significant or no.......
 
launch angle compensates for gravity drop, guns with 50fps ES still group same hole vertical..........tuning out vertical is the key.


al
 
Alinwa

Al in wave tuning everything is still expressed in degrees but I did enjoy the link.
Lynn
 
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alinwa said:
I'm gonna' take a stab at defining "stopping the muzzle"............ Lord Help Me :rolleyes:


The way I see it is this........


Tie a rope to a tree.

Pull it out like a jump rope.

Shake it.

If you play with the "shake speed" and the tension you're "tuning" the rope just like a gun barrel. If you're good you can get the rope to settle into 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 or 5 "harmonized nodes" such that there will be several spots on the rope that you could touch with your finger and they would be "stopped"..............you could pinch the rope and not affect the nodes because they're effectively NOT MOVING. The anti-nodes on the other hand are flopping up and down in between each node.


What a tuner does is set the muzzle (actually the bullet exit point) right on a node either by extending a false muzzle FORWARD (heavy weight-forward tuner, Calfee) or by otherwise redirecting force OUTWARD ("focusing ring", Beggs) to achieve the same affect.


In both cases I find no reason (except butt-headed cantankerousity :D ) not to call the muzzle "stopped".......now the tricky little side bar to this "stopped" is that the barrel is actually bent just like a sine wave so that the "stopped" muzzle is like a ring with a slinky attached to it............when the slinky pipe (anti-node) behind it is DOWN then the bullet is launched UP through the muzzle. When the barrel behind the node is UP, the launch angle is DOWN through the "stopped" muzzle exit hole.


Thus, tuning.



Big Al,


The reason for the stepped mauser barrels was for ease of manufacture in wartime conditions, it had nothing to do with tuning. I got this from Franz Achleitner a third generation arms builder directly from Germany. He had folks in many of the actual mfgng plants.



al
Click to expand...

Now imagine you are a bullet travelling down that rope at a constant speed. Time wise, you'd spend more time at the peaks and valleys because contrary to what you eyes are telling you about the rope moving up and down, its verticle movement (that is its change in departure angle in your words) is lowest at those points. (Put another way, the angular velocity is lowest at the peaks and highest at the nodes). The more weight you add, the slower the overall angular velocity of the barrel and the more time the barrel dwells at these high and low points, thus the wider the "tune" you can achieve (to a point) by adding weight.

At the nodes, the places that appear not to be moving, a very slight variance in the velocity of the bullet will result in a much greater change in departure angle because the velocity of the bullet must be exactly matched to reliably launch at the node. Thus, bullet velocity would become more critical and not less critical if you tried to tune for the node instead of the anti-node.

You really need to take a look at Figure 8 of the BOSS patent. Here is the link, but you may need to download a TIFF viewer to see the diagram. Click the Help tab and follow the instructions to the download link.
http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid...wning.ASNM.%26OS=AN/browning%26RS=AN/browning
 
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Lynn said:
Mike you said nobody is talking about absolute zero.Read the post by Pacecil and tell me what this means-"The stopping of all motion" Now tell me what is the definition of absolute zero please?

Lynn, you need to chill. I'm not your enemy. I personally don't think pacecil is your enemy either, because the whole "stop the muzzle" is Calfee's claim. Here's his exact quote: "When I run my range tests on the guns I build, the first thing I must do is to determine what tuner weight, and position on the barrel, is necessary,to STOP my muzzle, not just slow it down." I personally think that's an indefensible position, but hey, everyone is entitled to his opinion.

In your testing of tuners what happened to your point of impact at 26 grains 26.5 gains 27 grains 27.5 grains 28 grains and at your maximum load?
I know some well intentioned person will now want to argue that so I will now try and correct it for you.What happened to our point of impact at 49 clicks 50 clicks 51 clicks 52 clicks 53 clicks and at your maximum load?

I never tried a tuner on a 6PPC. The only tuner I tried was on a .100 short .22 PPC. I couldn't get the barrel to shoot before adding the tuner and couldn't get it to shoot after adding the tuner. Ergo, I concluded that a tuner has no magical properties. No Bummers to Hummers, so I shelved it for a later day.

Explain to me how a barrel at 90 degrees or 270 degrees along a sine wave does this? Please don't use anti-node as in 22 years of tuning wave shapes I've never heard the term used.Your action represents 0 degrees the node as you call it represents 90 degrees the downward crossing point represents 180 degrees the point you guys call the anti-node represents 270 degrees and the upward crossing point represents 360 degrees along a sine wave.

See Figure 8 in the Browning patent. It shows why you want a bullet to exit at a peak or valley rather than at a mode.

Now I ask you two more things.

Define stopped at is pertains to a muzzle in the correct langauge for this forum?

Well, this is not my job because I don't believe, absent applying some external force, that a muzzle of a rifle can be stopped. But, the angular velocity is zero at a peak or valley (90 and 270 degrees in a sine wave -- not to say a barrel vibrates in a sinusoidal wave form.)

Define FUN for each member here as they would put it down if given a secret test?

Sometimes, this sport is no FUN at all -- just a lot of thankless hard work.

Also please don't assume I'm taking this as a personal attack as only the late Dan Hackett knows the answer to that.He actually threatened to sue me.

You must have disparaged moly bullets. ;)

I have actually done what everyone here is squabling about and quite frankly I wish none of you actually believe Bill Calfee at all as it makes competing against you much easier.Problem is the quiet guys are doing the testing as I have done and they will be competing.The guys doing all of the talking and bad mouthing will never do the testing but will still do the naysaying.Just read all of the posts.

Again, I don't doubt that tuners work. I disagree with Bill's theory as to why they work and am sceptical as to how much (if any) they can improve a properly functioning centerfire BR rifle. I've only tried one on a rifle that was not functioning and saw little improvement, but again, it did not turn a bummer into a hummer. Heck, it didn't turn a bummer barrel into a good barrel. Before you ask for the details, forget about it. It was a couple of years ago, and I don't recall.

Peace.

Mike
Click to expand...
 
Mike, makes what I am sure will be proven to be a valid point. A tuner will not improve a hummer. A tuner will not even improve a great barrel, probably. But, just think of the barrels out there that are average or below average because they are out of their "natural tune" that a tuner could improve. TJ Jackson proved, at least to me, that some sub-standard performing barrels can be improved by trimming the length.
 
Ok,

I happen to agree with Jerry here.........in fact I'll go so far as to say that a tuner won't IMPROVE a barrel at all, it's just another way of tuning. My Opinion. In fact, I think it's exactly the SAME sort of tuning as using powder charge etc......it's just that with a Calfee tuner you cut off some barrel and replace it with a weight and with a Begg's you redistribute the weight such that the "node" can be played with, probably moved closer to the muzzle.


BUT, to look at this from another angle........the question seems to be exactly WHAT IS TUNING? To me tuning means timing your launch angle to account for differences in velocity. And if you call the end of the Browning BOSS "the muzzle" then you're tuning for the anti-nodes as Mike says.

If you use conventional tuning then you set the actual muzzle to the anti-node. (The "stopped" portion is back inside the barrel. right where Calfee would set the muzzle)

Even if you use a "Calfee style" you're setting the actual muzzle of the tuner to the anti-node.....or cutting the muzzle back to the "stopped" portion.



Now, if this is NOT the basis of velocity tuning, then someone please explain to me how we can shoot groups with a tenth or less of vertical and 50fps Extreme Spread?


HOW can a rifle physically shoot smaller groups than gravity drop allows?


:)


al
 
BTW Mike, I tried to access the BOSS site and my comp nearly had a coronary......I HATE Apple stuff!!! I wish someone else would've invented the I-Pod so's we would no longer have to put up with their garbage!


Oh well, I'll try to reinstall a Quicktime player or access it in American......PC.....



i'm just whining because i'm ignorant, rant off.... :)


al
 
BTW Mike,


re your last post...... "At the nodes, the places that appear not to be moving, a very slight variance in the velocity of the bullet will result in a much greater change in departure angle because the velocity of the bullet must be exactly matched to reliably launch at the node. Thus, bullet velocity would become more critical and not less critical if you tried to tune for the node instead of the anti-node.


I THINK that what you're missing is the fact that DEPARTURE ANGLE at the node is not parallel to the centerline of the bore, the barrel is bent just as much there at the node as it is at the anti-node, it's the ANGLE not the physical displacement that changes the launch.......



thenagain, maybe we ain't even in the same BOOK let alone the same page! ;)



LOL



al
 
Varmint Al:

Would Esten's rifle demonstrate its maximum accuracy potential if the slower bullet exits at a peak and the faster bullet exits while the barrel is still rising?

Thanks for all your efforts. Its been interesting.
 
Mike Marcelli said:
Varmint Al:

Would Esten's rifle demonstrate its maximum accuracy potential if the slower bullet exits at a peak and the faster bullet exits while the barrel is still rising?

Thanks for all your efforts. Its been interesting.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. Even with the steep slope at bullet exit time for Esten's reverse taper barrel and no tuner, the slope is not steep enough to completely compensate for the change in muzzle velocity of 40 fps. If the slowest bullet exited at a peak in the curve it would probably not be as steep a slope and not compensate as much as one along the steep slope of the Muzzle Projection Curve.

There might be a better contour than the reverse taper the would steepen the slope at muzzle exit time for the average velocity ammo.
 
I gotta get this in here.....Why has no one commented on the fact that the barrel with no tuner was most accurate?????
 
Al,Your Work is very interesting,But all my testing & actul shooting of the Reverse Taper Benchmark barrels in competion ,shows very different results,I have installed over 150 of these barrels & have a lot of good feedback from the owners,I will give you a example,If you go to the USRA website & get on the unlimited scoreline,you will see that Fred Gould ,from Texas ,won the Unlimited scoreline 2 years in a row,He is shooting a 2 Groove,Reverse Taper Benchmark with a Tuner & 8 ounce weight.I have tested plenty of the reverse Barrels & they Will flat,not shoot without the Tuner,Plus they will be very Wind sensitive,Both of my 10.5 Rifles have The Benchmark Reverse Barrels & tuners of 13 ounces,If you want to shoot them,you can,I will also put the Rifles into my Shooting fixture & let you see the actual barrel movements,Measured,With the tuner on & off the Barrel,On another note,Some have claimed that the Barrel has a Dead spot,This is not true& i can prove it,There is a area where the barrel has less movemant,But it never completely stops& i have Measured over 100 barrels,They all behave the same. BILL
 
Pacecil

Why has no one commented on the fact that the barrel with no tuner was most accurate?????
If we are to believe what Harold Vaughn and Varmint Al wrote about adding weight to any barrel the above quote makes no sense.
What I find very interesting is your ability to not post on the thread entitle "Gene" by Wilbur Harris were Gene Beggs says the barrel "stops"
Lynn
 
When Benchmark first came out with their Reverse Taper. They figured they wouldn't need a tuner. The design put the most weight at the Muzzle. The Gunsmith that got the first one that came to this area built a gun and asked me to shoot it for him. It shot good. Told him that it still needed a tuner. When he put a tuner on it it shot great. A new shooter at the time bought it. Bob Bain Kicked all our butts with his CZ Benchmark Reverse Taper.

This Computer Tuning is a great Winter Pastime. With no real answers. It is no substitute for shooting bullets in MATCH CONDITIONS
 
GordonE said:
This Computer Tuning is a great Winter Pastime. With no real answers. It is no substitute for shooting bullets in MATCH CONDITIONS
Click to expand...

Hey Gordon,

I have to agree that "Computer Tuning", or as I'd rather call it, "trying to figure out what makes things work", is NO SUBSTITUTE for shooting bullets in Match Conditions, but I have to say it is a great "Compliment" for time behind the bench. I know for myself it has helped me understand enough that I'm sure I've saving LOTS of ammo that I would have used in a "trial and error" approach to learning the ins and outs of rimfire benchrest.

Add to that all of the experienced shooters that are willing to openly discuss what they have learned over the years ... sometime agreeing and sometimes not (that's where I have to figure out what I think is right for me) and I gotta believe that combine the "computer tuning" and the "time behind the bench" and you've got the winning combination.

I've still got along way to go, but all this discussion has sure helped me.

See you soon .... Fred
 
Alinwa

Wow, you finally said what I have been preaching for going on four years. I CAN NOT MAKE A BARREL SHOOT ANY BETTER WITH A TUNER THAN WITHOUT. I just find that I can keep my barrels agging over the course of a Two Gun Event better through the use of a tuner than with playing with the more conventional methods, ie, seating depth, charge, neck tension. With the tuner, I am able to do it at the line, when it counts. If I guess wrong, at least I can change it emmediatly.
I will make one of those "Calfee" pronouncements and say that that is the real worth of a tuner in the Centerfire Arena.
Gotta go to the Drydock. See you tonight..........jackie
 
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