I have recently utilized a Lot# 4080159 of 6.5 x 284 Hornady Cases. I have found them growing .005 in length after firing and jamming my bolt shut. Does anyone have ANY suggestions (other than trashing the brass and replacing with Lapua or Norma..lol) on HOW to salvage this brass before I fire it all, such as heat treating to limit growth and increase hardness? The brass seems to be a very soft batch. Thanks. Mark
Soft Hornady Brass
- Thread starter newhornet
- Start date
A
abintx
Guest
Let's first clear up one misconception.
by Jim Harris and Ken Light
Annealing--Basic Concepts
Annealing is a process wherein heat is applied to a metal in order to change its internal structure in such a way that the metal will become softer. Most of us think of "heat treating" when we think of applying heat to a metal in order to change its internal structural properties. The word "heat treating" is most commonly associated with steel. However, the term heat treating is not annealing, except in a general and journalistic sense of the word. Heat-treating refers to a process wherein the metal is made harder. Annealing always means to make the metal softer.
In order to make steel harder, it is heated to some temperature, and then cooled fairly rapidly, although this is not always the case. Brass, on the other hand, cannot be made harder by heating it--ever. Brass is always made softer by heating.
Go here for the full story: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
It helps when the sequence is clear -- I'm going to make an assumption, that what you are saying is that the rounds chamber all right, but after firing, are hard to extract.
IF that is the case, this is likely what is happening:
Both the chamber and the case expand a bit when hit with 50,000+ psi. The case will expand to fill the chamber -- the chamber as it is expanded at peak pressure. Usually, both also spring back, and extraction is routine.
However, if brass will reach its limit of elasticity, it will not spring back completely, whereas the chamber will. (Unless you exceed it's elasticity as well, which is quite unlikely.) This makes it hard to extract the case; because as the chamber springs back, it "grabs" the now-larger case.
This is usually seen when the chamber walls are too thin and the fit of the case is tight -- like chambering a Remington 700 action, with a 1.0625 barrel tenon, with a case like the .416 Rigby (.589 diameter at the head.), using, say, .003 clearance in the chamber. The thinner sidewalls of the barrel will expand more than with a thicker tenon, allowing the case to expand more as well. With the 1.0625 tenon, it is easy to use enough pressure where the case expands beyond it's elaciticy, and as the pressure falls, the chamber grabs the case.
However, if the mismatch between the chamber and the case is too great, you have another condition where the case stretch exceeds its elasticity -- same phenomena, different cause.
I wouldn't think that a case just .005 under the chamber would cause this. More likely, there is significantly more than .005 clearance between your chamber and the Hornady brass you are using.
If extraction is hard now, it will likely remain so. The brass will endeavor to spring back to it's (new) static state, unless you once again exceed it's elasticity. I've had this happen when, say, firing a set of cases several times in a chamber larger than another chamber. Even though I can size the cases so loading in the smaller chamber is easy, extraction is hard. Brass has a "memory."
If this is what's happening, whether or not it is Hornady's fault is a different issue. To determine that, you would have to measure your chamber diameter and the Hornady cases. One of them is exceeding CIP specifications -- or you have a wildcat, which was never designed to use a case diameter of the Hornady brass.
All this based on your description, which was not completely clear.
(BTW, the usual complaint with "soft" brass is the primer pockets open up too much to hold a primer.)
IF that is the case, this is likely what is happening:
Both the chamber and the case expand a bit when hit with 50,000+ psi. The case will expand to fill the chamber -- the chamber as it is expanded at peak pressure. Usually, both also spring back, and extraction is routine.
However, if brass will reach its limit of elasticity, it will not spring back completely, whereas the chamber will. (Unless you exceed it's elasticity as well, which is quite unlikely.) This makes it hard to extract the case; because as the chamber springs back, it "grabs" the now-larger case.
This is usually seen when the chamber walls are too thin and the fit of the case is tight -- like chambering a Remington 700 action, with a 1.0625 barrel tenon, with a case like the .416 Rigby (.589 diameter at the head.), using, say, .003 clearance in the chamber. The thinner sidewalls of the barrel will expand more than with a thicker tenon, allowing the case to expand more as well. With the 1.0625 tenon, it is easy to use enough pressure where the case expands beyond it's elaciticy, and as the pressure falls, the chamber grabs the case.
However, if the mismatch between the chamber and the case is too great, you have another condition where the case stretch exceeds its elasticity -- same phenomena, different cause.
I wouldn't think that a case just .005 under the chamber would cause this. More likely, there is significantly more than .005 clearance between your chamber and the Hornady brass you are using.
If extraction is hard now, it will likely remain so. The brass will endeavor to spring back to it's (new) static state, unless you once again exceed it's elasticity. I've had this happen when, say, firing a set of cases several times in a chamber larger than another chamber. Even though I can size the cases so loading in the smaller chamber is easy, extraction is hard. Brass has a "memory."
If this is what's happening, whether or not it is Hornady's fault is a different issue. To determine that, you would have to measure your chamber diameter and the Hornady cases. One of them is exceeding CIP specifications -- or you have a wildcat, which was never designed to use a case diameter of the Hornady brass.
All this based on your description, which was not completely clear.
(BTW, the usual complaint with "soft" brass is the primer pockets open up too much to hold a primer.)
Thanks for your responses. I am SURE that you are both educated or knowledgeable well beyond my understanding of this situation. I am loading a 6.5 x 284, .290 neck Benchmark Barrel at (starting 49.0 grains of H-4831 and seated .003 off rifling) I assumed that this load was too "hot", though the load data came from the gunsmith which had shot this gun at 1000 yards with the same load before he rechambered to "clean up" the throat with the same original reamer ( which he also has a barrel chambered with.....whew.) I then proceeded to drop the charge and finally stopped at 36.0 grains, and still had a sticking bolt, though NOT as firmly stuck. I do not know enough about the terminology to be be of much assistance here. I just do know that this load works fine in his Benchmark 30 inch barrel and does not in my benchmark 27 1/4 inch barrel. This is NEW brass and I have trimmed necks and length and it continues to grow @.005 and stick. I have ordered Norma brass and will try to narrow the problem to the brass. If this gives you any more ideas I would appreciate them, though as I stated....I am not very versed in the terminolgy. The bolt lifts easily, it just does not come back. The unfired, loaded round chambers freely and extracts easily, if this helps also. The fired unloaded case will still bind the bolt if re-sinserted in the chamber and the bolt is closed on it. I wish I could be more clear and use the correct words to clarify. Thanks!!!!!
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The first thing I'd do is consult the gunsmith who did the work for you -- unless it is a used rifle, and he did the work for someone else. But if he did the work for you, and you're following his recommendations, he may feel inclined to help.
Otherwise, assume we're not there. We can't see just what is happening, and in what sequence. Take us through it. Lets start:
You got new brass. You full-length sized it, primed it, charged the case, and seated a bullet.
OK so far?
That round chambered just fine. But when you tried to extract the case, extraction was hard, right?
If you immediately try to rechamer that (now empty) case, does it chamber hard?
If it is hard to chamber: if you put magic marker long the case walls and rechamber it, where does the magic marker show a tight fit?
* * *
You measure the fired case. it is .005 "larger" than the virgin case. Diameter, right?
But where? At the case head, just above the web? At the shoulder? How does this correlate with the "magic marker" test? (Case head is just above were the web ends. Should be pretty obvious, but is "about" .250 up from the end of the case.)
What full-length sizing dies do you have? Was the gunsmith in on the selection of these dies?
Can you size the case? If so, what diameter does it measure now, at the case head? At the shoulder? Is this in between the fired diameter and the virgin case diameter?
Does the sized case chamber easily now? If not, either (1) your dies don't fit your chamber, or (2) you haven't pushed the shoulder back enough. Do you have a gizmo that lets you measure how much you have moved the shoulder back? With a shoulder bump, either too far or not enough is a problem. If you don't have a gauge (gizmo), the other way is to strip the bolt and feel how it closes. If it closes hard, you *probably* didn't bump the shoulder back far enough. But if the case chambers hard for other reasons, and you have no gauge, You're SOL. The gauge is important. Have the gunsmith run the chambering reamer into a bit of scrap barrel -- neck, shoulder, and a tiny bit of the body below the shoulder. Now you have a gauge for your chamber.
* * *
If, on the other hand, the sized case does chamber easily now, I assume that when you fire it a second time, it sticks on extraction?
You get the idea. What happens when?
And by the way, 36 grains of H-4831-SC seems way too mild a load, even with a 140-grain 6.5mm bullet.
Otherwise, assume we're not there. We can't see just what is happening, and in what sequence. Take us through it. Lets start:
You got new brass. You full-length sized it, primed it, charged the case, and seated a bullet.
OK so far?
That round chambered just fine. But when you tried to extract the case, extraction was hard, right?
If you immediately try to rechamer that (now empty) case, does it chamber hard?
If it is hard to chamber: if you put magic marker long the case walls and rechamber it, where does the magic marker show a tight fit?
* * *
You measure the fired case. it is .005 "larger" than the virgin case. Diameter, right?
But where? At the case head, just above the web? At the shoulder? How does this correlate with the "magic marker" test? (Case head is just above were the web ends. Should be pretty obvious, but is "about" .250 up from the end of the case.)
What full-length sizing dies do you have? Was the gunsmith in on the selection of these dies?
Can you size the case? If so, what diameter does it measure now, at the case head? At the shoulder? Is this in between the fired diameter and the virgin case diameter?
Does the sized case chamber easily now? If not, either (1) your dies don't fit your chamber, or (2) you haven't pushed the shoulder back enough. Do you have a gizmo that lets you measure how much you have moved the shoulder back? With a shoulder bump, either too far or not enough is a problem. If you don't have a gauge (gizmo), the other way is to strip the bolt and feel how it closes. If it closes hard, you *probably* didn't bump the shoulder back far enough. But if the case chambers hard for other reasons, and you have no gauge, You're SOL. The gauge is important. Have the gunsmith run the chambering reamer into a bit of scrap barrel -- neck, shoulder, and a tiny bit of the body below the shoulder. Now you have a gauge for your chamber.
* * *
If, on the other hand, the sized case does chamber easily now, I assume that when you fire it a second time, it sticks on extraction?
You get the idea. What happens when?
And by the way, 36 grains of H-4831-SC seems way too mild a load, even with a 140-grain 6.5mm bullet.
New Hornady brass, full length sized in Redding S type die. Loaded round, checked seating depth with chamber gauge (cut with the same reamer) and have the bullet "kissing" the rifling. Cartridges that have been sized chamber perfectly. I measured the fired brass length and set it back .002. I started the load at his data, which was 49.0 gr. of H4831. Fired, then had great difficulty extracting the spent brass. Put the spent brass back in the chamber and close and still have difficulty extracting. The "growth" is in LENGTH. The case head diameter basically the same as unfired rounds. I measured the body in three places to the shoulder....no nominal difference versus unfired new resized brass. I have NOT done the marker test and that IS a great idea and I will attempt that. Yes the round sticks on extraction. the gunsmith said I could try to bake ONE piece of brass at 300 degrees for 30 mins. and then try to start again with that particular piece and see what it does. He feels the brass is NOT springing back. I apologize for the "rambling" above...or so it may seem. I would read a little and try to address each issue. I have ordered some Norma brass. I have read some other forums saying that others have had the same problem with their Hornady factory ammunition and some with brass for reloading also. I realize that the 36 gr. load was minimal, as the minimum charge in the book was 35.9. I was attempting to determine if perhaps I had a "hot" batch of powder, thus eliminating the pressure problem. I have NOT seen ANY signs of pressure on the primer or case either. His rifle and barrel are the same except for an extra 2 inches or so. Chambered with the same reamer, same load attempted, Remington 700 action, trued and set up. He purchased a box of Hornady brass from a fellow benchrest shooter who had had success with the Lot # of Hornady brass he had found and has had none of these problems with it. He said the bolt handle timing could be off a minimal amount to add to this problem of extraction also, but that the cases were definitely growing more than his had ever attempted to. Thanks so much for your consideration on this matter!
L
Larry Elliott
Guest
I assume that in your last post you hit 9 instead of 0 by mistake and weren't loading 49.0 gr/H4831.
I've never experienced hard extraction because the cases lengthened by 0.005" in one firing, just from loads that were too hot. Did you trim these cases prior to firing them the first time? If the cases were trimmed, fit the chamber reasonably well before firing, and show no other signs of high pressure than hard extraction I'm baffled. Cases, even when they fit the chamber well usually shorten slightly rather than lengthen when they're fired. Resizing is what causes cases to lengthen (usually), even if no neck expander is used. The case has possibly swelled slightly and squeezing it back down to the size of the FL die lengthens them. The brass has only one place to go and that means the cases grow in length.
If the cases were soft it would seem that the primer pockets would be enlarged and since they're not that leads me to believe that the cases aren't too soft. If the necks and shoulders are too soft I wouldn't expect that to do much more than give varying bullet pull that will not be beneficial to accuracy.
The suggestion of the gunsmith to put the cases in the oven at 300° (F ?) also baffles me. That temperature is too low to anneal the cases if it's Fahrenheit, and will lead to soft and dangerous case heads if it's Celsius. Assuming that it's 300° F all you'd likely end up with are some hot cases with no difference otherwise that I can think of.
I've never experienced hard extraction because the cases lengthened by 0.005" in one firing, just from loads that were too hot. Did you trim these cases prior to firing them the first time? If the cases were trimmed, fit the chamber reasonably well before firing, and show no other signs of high pressure than hard extraction I'm baffled. Cases, even when they fit the chamber well usually shorten slightly rather than lengthen when they're fired. Resizing is what causes cases to lengthen (usually), even if no neck expander is used. The case has possibly swelled slightly and squeezing it back down to the size of the FL die lengthens them. The brass has only one place to go and that means the cases grow in length.
If the cases were soft it would seem that the primer pockets would be enlarged and since they're not that leads me to believe that the cases aren't too soft. If the necks and shoulders are too soft I wouldn't expect that to do much more than give varying bullet pull that will not be beneficial to accuracy.
The suggestion of the gunsmith to put the cases in the oven at 300° (F ?) also baffles me. That temperature is too low to anneal the cases if it's Fahrenheit, and will lead to soft and dangerous case heads if it's Celsius. Assuming that it's 300° F all you'd likely end up with are some hot cases with no difference otherwise that I can think of.
No, it was indeed 49.0grains....it is what he shot a 1000 yards, with this barrel and the one he now uses. It was farenheit he spoke of. I have also read that annealing does soften brass. I was under the assumption, though, that firing a cartridge WOULD expand the length, thus setting the shoulder back with the die is necessary????? My last test firing was at the minimal load of 36.0 (book actually stated 35.9). I still had the same problem, though not quite as difficult to extract. Oh, and yes I did trim to correct length...I re-read the above and saw that question. I have ordered Norma brass and I really hope this will alleviate my issues. Thanks again! Mark
Mark
If your cases are coated with sizing die lubricant from the full length sizing operation it will be almost impossible to extract them once they are fired.
Make sure you use some paper towels and get all of the lubricant off of them.
Sticky extraction usually means the area right in front of the web has expanded too much or it was too tight when it was first chambered.
It is sometimes necessary to shorten down a shellholder so your sizing die sizes more of rthe base of the case.To do this put a piece of 80 to 220 grit sandpaper on a flat surface and run the shellholder over it in a figure 8 pattern.This will remove a small amount and allow you to set the die lower in the press.
Lynn aka Waterboy
If your cases are coated with sizing die lubricant from the full length sizing operation it will be almost impossible to extract them once they are fired.
Make sure you use some paper towels and get all of the lubricant off of them.
Sticky extraction usually means the area right in front of the web has expanded too much or it was too tight when it was first chambered.
It is sometimes necessary to shorten down a shellholder so your sizing die sizes more of rthe base of the case.To do this put a piece of 80 to 220 grit sandpaper on a flat surface and run the shellholder over it in a figure 8 pattern.This will remove a small amount and allow you to set the die lower in the press.
Lynn aka Waterboy
I'm at a loss. I have never heard of a case sticking because it lengthened only. The way brass and steel react to pressure when fired, it shouldn't happen. Cases stick all the time, but because the diameter has grown -- usually just above the web, but not always. Magic Marker should show where.
You need to use a pretty good .0001 micrometer to measure diameters. Calipers will not do.
It will do no harm to bake the cases at 300 degrees F. I can't imagine it will help, but it wouldn't be the first time my imagination failed. Just don't go much hotter.
I suspect you're oversizing the cases -- pushing the shoulder back too far. But in my, and others, experience, that leads to case separations at the head, not stuck cases.
49 grains of H-4831 doesn't sound terribly out of line. I used to shoot a 6.5/06 AI, and we used around 56 grains Rel-22. The 6.5/06 Ackley has about 4-5 grains more capacity than a 65./284, and Rel-22 is usually a little slower than H-4831. (Not always, so be careful.) But all that makes the 49 grains 4831 seems believable.
So, I'd say (1) check the diameter. (2) bake the suckers at 300-F. (3) Wait for new brass.
Whatever steps you take, best to track down the problem. What you don't understand can be dangerous.
Please let us know what you find out. I'm betting on a growth in the diameter, and perhaps oversizing, but who knows.
In any case, good luck.
Edit: I disagree with Lynn about sizing more of the body by shortening the shell holder. It will size more of the base. But as the case now goes farther into the die, it will also push the shoulder back more. I have had this problem with a wildcat on a .404 case. The solution is another die to size only the base. In my case, I got a cheap die, cut if off, and bored the little bit left to make a small base die. There are other ways to get/make a small base die that will not affect the shoulder bump.
If you are not sizing the shoulder enough, chambering (not extraction) will be hard. In that case, Lynn's solution is correct.
Lynn could be correct about lube left on the case, I don't know -- removing all the lube is close to a religion with me, so I have no experience, except for fireforming, with lubed cases. I have lubed cases when fireforming, no extraction problems. For me though, fireforming is a milder load 45,00-50,000 psi, and you've done that too.
Still, it s a tip from an experienced shooter, check it out.
You need to use a pretty good .0001 micrometer to measure diameters. Calipers will not do.
It will do no harm to bake the cases at 300 degrees F. I can't imagine it will help, but it wouldn't be the first time my imagination failed. Just don't go much hotter.
I suspect you're oversizing the cases -- pushing the shoulder back too far. But in my, and others, experience, that leads to case separations at the head, not stuck cases.
49 grains of H-4831 doesn't sound terribly out of line. I used to shoot a 6.5/06 AI, and we used around 56 grains Rel-22. The 6.5/06 Ackley has about 4-5 grains more capacity than a 65./284, and Rel-22 is usually a little slower than H-4831. (Not always, so be careful.) But all that makes the 49 grains 4831 seems believable.
So, I'd say (1) check the diameter. (2) bake the suckers at 300-F. (3) Wait for new brass.
Whatever steps you take, best to track down the problem. What you don't understand can be dangerous.
Please let us know what you find out. I'm betting on a growth in the diameter, and perhaps oversizing, but who knows.
In any case, good luck.
Edit: I disagree with Lynn about sizing more of the body by shortening the shell holder. It will size more of the base. But as the case now goes farther into the die, it will also push the shoulder back more. I have had this problem with a wildcat on a .404 case. The solution is another die to size only the base. In my case, I got a cheap die, cut if off, and bored the little bit left to make a small base die. There are other ways to get/make a small base die that will not affect the shoulder bump.
If you are not sizing the shoulder enough, chambering (not extraction) will be hard. In that case, Lynn's solution is correct.
Lynn could be correct about lube left on the case, I don't know -- removing all the lube is close to a religion with me, so I have no experience, except for fireforming, with lubed cases. I have lubed cases when fireforming, no extraction problems. For me though, fireforming is a milder load 45,00-50,000 psi, and you've done that too.
Still, it s a tip from an experienced shooter, check it out.
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L
Larry Elliott
Guest
The distance between the head of the case and the shoulder will increase on firing with full power loads, but from what you said I presumed (usually dangerous) that it was the overall case length that had increased. If the cases are growing 0.005" between the head and shoulder on firing there's a problem somewhere, but it's not likely due to soft brass.
As Lynn suggests shortening the shellholder or bottom surface of the FL die will allow you to bump the shoulder back, but in every rifle I've ever loaded for a shoulder bump of 0.002 to 0.003 inch is obtainable with standard shellholders and dies - which may mean that I've been an overly lucky puppy. Oversizing the cases, pushing the shoulder back farther than 2 or 3 thou might case problems other than shortened case life, but I can't imagine that cases that are too short in headspace would cause this problem.
It almost sounds like the locking lugs are only making very minimal contact with their abutments in the receiver so that when a full pressure round is fired the lugs or abutments are deformed enough to allow the cases to expand way more than they should. When the pressure is released the case can't relax enough to allow for normal extraction. I've experienced this with a factory rifle firing factory ammunition that was of normal pressure.
As Lynn suggests shortening the shellholder or bottom surface of the FL die will allow you to bump the shoulder back, but in every rifle I've ever loaded for a shoulder bump of 0.002 to 0.003 inch is obtainable with standard shellholders and dies - which may mean that I've been an overly lucky puppy. Oversizing the cases, pushing the shoulder back farther than 2 or 3 thou might case problems other than shortened case life, but I can't imagine that cases that are too short in headspace would cause this problem.
It almost sounds like the locking lugs are only making very minimal contact with their abutments in the receiver so that when a full pressure round is fired the lugs or abutments are deformed enough to allow the cases to expand way more than they should. When the pressure is released the case can't relax enough to allow for normal extraction. I've experienced this with a factory rifle firing factory ammunition that was of normal pressure.
B
bglenn
Guest
newhornet
The only way for me to see the neck being streched .005 per firing is for the shoulder to be pushed back too much each time it is sized. If the shoulder is pushed back to much the shoulder will go to the front of the chamber when fired and then when the pressure comes up the front of the case will stick to the chamber and strech back and the head will hit the bolt hard and tight. Do you know how much your shoulder is being set back? What weight bullet are you shooting? Did I miss it somewhere?
Glenn
The only way for me to see the neck being streched .005 per firing is for the shoulder to be pushed back too much each time it is sized. If the shoulder is pushed back to much the shoulder will go to the front of the chamber when fired and then when the pressure comes up the front of the case will stick to the chamber and strech back and the head will hit the bolt hard and tight. Do you know how much your shoulder is being set back? What weight bullet are you shooting? Did I miss it somewhere?
Glenn
N
Nomo4me
Guest
I certainly don't possess the expertise to advise here, other than to observe that when I had a similar situation with a 6 x 47L it turned out my 'smith' had cut a poor chamber. Had a slight ring in it right below the shoulder which didn't reveal itself until I ran a case through a body die and a shiny spot told the tale
That would explain sticking cases due to length, and should be checked.
WHEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW!!!! There was a WHOLE LOT of info is these last responses. I'll try to address some off them...as I said I am NOT skilled in the correct terminology. I may have mispoken. OK. The action was trued by the gunsmith, including machining the lugs, front and rear (from the shooter's viewpoint) with concentration being put on the rear as they engage the receiver. It is a 140 SGK bullet I use as I intend to hunt, primarily. He shoots the 142 SMK's in his barrel as he did in this barrel. He bore scoped the chamber after I carried it back and saw NO irregularites with the scope, ie: burrs, scratches, etc. He pulled the barrel and set it up in the lathe and sandpapered the chamber and versed me on NEVER leaving excessive oil in the chamber, which I wasn't aware of, and explained about the ability for it to "grab" the brass. This I may have mislead you with: I am measuring the "growth" with the chamber gauge (which he cut with the reamer) against unfired brass. I measure a fired round and set the shoulder back .002 based on that chamber gauge reading. The rounds DO chamber and the bolt DOES close with a minor amount of tension, but NO worse than the tight neck .22 BR I have. I have turned necks and such before (as with the .22 BR) and have had NO ill effects. He has done 4 Remingtons for me, so I tend to trust his capabilities (not withstanding the fact that we ALL can make mistakes) and as I referred, the barrel came off his rifle as he was installing a new Benchmark barrel for break-in on his action and he hadn't gotten around to replacing THIS barrel back on his action, AFTER rechambering due to some minor throat errosion. I'll see if this helps anyone come to an "ARRIVA" (lol) conclusion.... I do expect to receive the Norma brass today and for your readings sake, let's hope this does solve the problem....otherwise,............... I appreciate you time fellas!
L
Larry Elliott
Guest
A groove or ring in the chamber would lead to difficult extraction, but wouldn't cause cases to stretch 0.005" on firing. I recently had to have a barrel rechambered because if wasn't properly chambered in the first place. It now extracts cases with no problems.
The more I think about this the more I think it's a problem that's allowing the bolt face to move in relation to the chamber by way more than can be explained by normal pressures. It could be that the barrel is loose in the receiver too, but it'd have to be really loose to allow this much stretch to occur IMHO.
I think that this problem is going to need hands-on examination to discover the cause.
The more I think about this the more I think it's a problem that's allowing the bolt face to move in relation to the chamber by way more than can be explained by normal pressures. It could be that the barrel is loose in the receiver too, but it'd have to be really loose to allow this much stretch to occur IMHO.
I think that this problem is going to need hands-on examination to discover the cause.
Jim Wooten
Just Me
Have you checked to see that the bolt handle is not touching the back of the recess in the receiver or stock after firing a round?
Jim
OK..premature update. I received my NEW NORMA BRASS today. I trimmed neck and length and resized first piece. Loaded round and chambered. Everything fine so far. Shot the round and the bolt nearly "fell out"...(exaggeration from glee) after I lifted the handle! NO biding at all!!! The load was 46.0 grains. Not the 49.0 he loads but a reasonable upper range starting point. Alright, here is some comparison figures Hornady to Norma Brass: Hornady Unfired, Case Head (micrometer) .500, Norma Unfired, Case Head .498, measured with the micro. stem just above the rim groove. The Norma "grew" to .499 after firing. The Norma in the chamber gauge measured: NEW unfired and unsized 2.7825, and fired 2.7890 so I would need to set it back .002 to 2.7870 (correct?). I may be celebrating early about this action but I am still turning the necks and length trimming the Norma. I intend to load some rounds and verify the cause. What say ye all? Does this make ANY sense AT ALL??????? The only difference I really see is the chamber gauge length and the case head dimension.
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I don't mean to sound bitter (he said bitterly), but tight at the case head causes sticky extraction. Always has, and probably always will. It was the notion that the cases were "too long" or "soft" that had us all scratching.
I know, it is premature.
A chamber cast with cerrosafe, measured 30 minutes after would give the true dimensions of your chamber. The old magic marker on the case trick would give some information.
If the new brass addresses all your concerns and you're not curious about the Hornady brass, that's OK. But if you are, make a cast -- or blacken an old Hornady case, fired but not sized, and let us know what's tight.
I know, it is premature.
A chamber cast with cerrosafe, measured 30 minutes after would give the true dimensions of your chamber. The old magic marker on the case trick would give some information.
If the new brass addresses all your concerns and you're not curious about the Hornady brass, that's OK. But if you are, make a cast -- or blacken an old Hornady case, fired but not sized, and let us know what's tight.