So, what makes great 22 Rimfire ammo great?

Pete Wass

Pete Wass

Well-known member
Is it the type and consistent amount of primer compound, the exact weight of powder, the crimp on the bullets, the consistency of the bullets shape and weight , the over length consistency of the round, What? Has anyone found out yet? Anyone want to seriously discuss it?

Pete
 
Pete, all of the criteria you have noted are what make a bullet.
Once a ballistic engineer determines the exact proportions of each individual component to make a bullet, the problem becomes how to maintain those exact proportions at several hundred rounds per minute. If any part of the process is performed manually, for instance accurately applying the right amount of primer. Then machine maintenance and calibration come into play. Also there’s quality control, how often the product is checked for consistent manufacture and reliability. It makes me wonder how some manufacturers manage it.

Bob
 
Then you need to see which of the match grade RF cartridges and lot numbers, your rifle likes to eat. I may be Excessive Compulsive but I still sort by rim thickness and then sort by weight.

Bob
 
What do you find

rkittine said:
Then you need to see which of the match grade RF cartridges and lot numbers, your rifle likes to eat. I may be Excessive Compulsive but I still sort by rim thickness and then sort by weight.

Bob
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Bob,
What are you finding and do you find a difference between the ones that are different?
Thank for your time!
Pete
 
Hi Pete,

I have found differences in length, differences in rim thickness and differences in weight. In addition I have a comparator for .22 RF, which also shows differences. Although new at this, I bought a number of boxes of each match grade 22 RF as well as multiple lot numbers for each ammo. I only bought lots where there was considerable inventory available or each lot from the supplier and then tested in an indoor range, where I was able to shoot 50 yards, by myself with the blowers turned off to eliminate variation in wind, temperature, humidity etc. Cleaning and fouling between ammo changes were kept consistent.

My BR RF rifles picked one brand / lot as number one after all the sorting, but the no. 2 was not another lot of the same make and grade, but a competitors ammo, third best was a different lot number of the first brand, grade. So I bought a bunch of the no. 1 ammo from the same lot number.

If nothing else, doing all the sorting takes up those cold winter nights and doing all the shooting tests, give great reasons to go to the range even if by yourself.

Bob
 
I just ran the following test measurements for five rounds each of LM+ and Wold EM:


Lapua Midas +

1 - Oal: 0.975" RIM: 0.044"
2- OAL 0.9745" RIM 0.044"
3 - OAL 0.975" RIM 0.043"
4 - OAL 0.976" RIM 0.0445"
5 - OAL 0.974" RIM 0.044"

Pretty darn good.


Wolf Extra Match

1 - Oal: 0.9815" RIM: 0.045"
2- OAL 0.980" RIM 0.043"
3 - OAL 0.978" RIM 0.0438"
4 - OAL 0.976" RIM 0.044"
5 - OAL 0.9825" RIM 0.045"

Meh.

What's interesting is I sent the rifle off to Lapua to get the berrel headspaced, and the gun went from shooting Midas + pretty good to shooting it excellent.

And from shooting Wolf EM pretty good to shooting it crappy.

Unfortunately, I didn't think to weigh the rounds.....

So I guess the next step is to group some Midas + rounds by OAL / Rim thickness / weight, and go shoot them.....
 
It even says in there that what works in the test gun may not work in yours. So it comes down to is all these test you read about don't mean anything except in that gun they ran the test with and the lot numbers they used. It is funny what works in my 1807 Annie is what nobody else says works in their custom barred guns...... best run through and test with your gun and ammo and forget what you read........ Jim
 
What Im hoping to find is

Bob1949 said:
Take a look at the accurate shooter website. There is an article covering some ammo tests.
The article is somewhat dated but may still be of some use.

Bob

http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/[/QUOTE

some data from some tests where, after a great lot has been found, some rounds are measured, dismantled and checked powder weight, primer weight and bullet parameter uniformity. Something makes lots better than others.

As an aside, the last two great lots I have found that were worth buying have shot equally well in three barrels. These lots are the ones to study, in my opinion. These lots may be valuable to the manufacturers so that they can replicate them. Unfortunately for me, by the time I tested the lots I received the supply had been sold. I guess if they sell all they make, the makers may not care but better has to be better for everyone who buys the product. A rising tide sort of thing.

I believe there are lots that will shoot in every rifle. Finding out why is the challenge, IMHO.

Pete
Click to expand...
 
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I never see measures then accuracy reports that also then have the measured speed from chronograph test included but surely that would have plenty of relevance.
 
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As an aside, the last two great lots I have found that were worth buying have shot equally well in three barrels. These lots are the ones to study, in my opinion. These lots may be valuable to the manufacturers so that they can replicate them. Unfortunately for me, by the time I tested the lots I received the supply had been sold. I guess if they sell all they make, the makers may not care but better has to be better for everyone who buys the product. A rising tide sort of thing.

I believe there are lots that will shoot in every rifle. Finding out why is the challenge, IMHO.

Pete[/QUOTE]

Hi Pete, I went down that rabbit hole. Got myself a scale that measures down to .1grain. Dial calipers to measure size to .0001”. Took bullets apart, weighed the brass (fired and unfired), lead and the powder. Compared thousands of rounds. Separated them into three categories by weight. The bullets varied in weight by 2 grains. Took them to the range, shot them, compared the targets ( 4 cards with 5 targets per card and 5 shots per target .) All I got was confused, at 50yds the average spread of all 3 groups of bullets varied in size by just a few thousandths ( Typ. .020 +/- ) Of all the brands I tested, that I could afford, I found my rifle liked the SK Standard Plus the best. Just recently I got a hold of three bricks of ELEY Club. When the weather decides to comply, I’ll shoot the ELEY and see how it goes. All said and done, I don’t think I’m going down that rabbit hole again.

Bob
 
Bob1949 said:
As an aside, the last two great lots I have found that were worth buying have shot equally well in three barrels. These lots are the ones to study, in my opinion. These lots may be valuable to the manufacturers so that they can replicate them. Unfortunately for me, by the time I tested the lots I received the supply had been sold. I guess if they sell all they make, the makers may not care but better has to be better for everyone who buys the product. A rising tide sort of thing.

I believe there are lots that will shoot in every rifle. Finding out why is the challenge, IMHO.

Pete
Click to expand...

Hi Pete, I went down that rabbit hole. Got myself a scale that measures down to .1grain. Dial calipers to measure size to .0001”. Took bullets apart, weighed the brass (fired and unfired), lead and the powder. Compared thousands of rounds. Separated them into three categories by weight. The bullets varied in weight by 2 grains. Took them to the range, shot them, compared the targets ( 4 cards with 5 targets per card and 5 shots per target .) All I got was confused, at 50yds the average spread of all 3 groups of bullets varied in size by just a few thousandths ( Typ. .020 +/- ) Of all the brands I tested, that I could afford, I found my rifle liked the SK Standard Plus the best. Just recently I got a hold of three bricks of ELEY Club. When the weather decides to comply, I’ll shoot the ELEY and see how it goes. All said and done, I don’t think I’m going down that rabbit hole again.

Bob[/QUOTE]



A scale that weighs .1 of a grain isn't much for accuracy, the ones we use are .005 gr. for weighing powder and bullets. Now a caliper that measures a .0001 is. I weighed a lot of bullets and never found them .2 gr. let alone 2 gr.? shaving lead getting them out? and are you weighing lube ........ Jim
 
Hi Jim, bullets that I weighed averaged at 50.55gr with some at 49.8gr and some as high as 51.3gr. which averaged at 50.55gr +/- .75gr.
The 2gr variation was of course an exaggeration made in hast.
The brass was measured after shooting and varied very little in size and weight. I attributed the ~1gr+/- difference in bullet weight to variables in primer, powder and lead weight.
The bullets I toyed with were CCI mach grade, overall there were 2000 rounds checked.
I must admit some responsibility for the variation in group size.
Please understand my previous post was not meant to provide any technical data but to emphasize my frustration.

Bob
 
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Only my .02 worth

If you have ever taken a .22 match round apart you will remember how little powder is in the case. with such a small volume of powder it would only take a very small amount to be off. To an even greater degree the primer material goes off with BIG explosion, so the tiniest amount would change the velocity greatly. I am sure the manufacturing of these cartridges would make your head spin!!! Only my .02 worth
willy
 
am going to

examine some of the good ones when I get back home. I have a Laboratory Balance that measures .000 so that might be helpful.

Pete
 
I think I remember

reading years ago that the priming compound was made up in small batches, ergo, small lot numbers. That might account for the situation although it''s dificult to imagine doing that on a production basis, large scale. Say there are 20 cases in a given lot of primer mix, that would only be 10000 cases. It would mean a lot of stopping and starting, I would think but I have never seen a video of match grade ammo production. I watched a CCI video the other day but it was not very detailed.

Wonder why someone hasn't purchased the machinery Federal used to make that wonderful ammo of years ago. I have heard the machines are in a warehouse languishing. I think folks would be very glad to be able to get some more of it.

Pete
 
Federal still makes some, but it is now RWS making it. I went out to test some today in perfect conditions 15 mph gusting to 30 ....lol .... It still held .2 at 50 yards ...... Jim
 
math

Pete, did you mean 100,000 rnds.? if so, that may be 2 - 4 lots. I've been told every time the operator steps away from the machine it is stopped, and a new batch is started? There are so many questions that need to be addressed, to lessen the miss-information and "gossip" tales. Maybe Kevin Nevius could chime in and give us as much information as he could, since he is on the Lapua Team and has visited the factory? Kevin......
willy
 
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