Simple floating reamer pusher

A question

Gents,

If one is going to hold a barrel for chambering as depicted in NesikaChad's photo, i.e., hard jaws clamped directly on the barrel, is there really any reason to dial in the muzzle end with a spider or similar arrangement? I don't know, but it would seem that anything you do on the muzzle end would have no effect on the chamber end as the chuck jaws grip on it would prevent any movement as a result of dialing in the muzzle. So, I guess I'm saying with that particular chambering set up, does an unsupported muzzle really matter? Or am I missing something?

Would a crooked barrel, chambered in the manner above, set off some potentially problematic vibrations as a result of it being unsupported (wobbling within the spindle)?

What about crowing in the same set up? I see a problem trying to hold a tapered barrel straight without some sort of support on the outboard end.

And to save somebody some typing, I understand this is why many here chamber with a piece of wire or split collet affair between the chuck and the barrel, or just use a spider chuck to hold the barrel when chambering.

I look forword to your replies,
Justin
 
I did not say the the CNC lathes were not being run by able machinest.

Those steel jaws are replaceable and therefore machineable and I machine them all the time on my Takisawa EX-108 slant bed running the same Fanuc 21i-T controller that this Daewoo Lynx 200L slant bed lathe is using.

I keep several sets plus uncut ones for different jobs and also use aluminum jaws when the work requires it. Most of the time I use a collet chuck with 16C collets.

I put my trust in my programming and this wonderful 6 ton lathe over what I can produce on any manual lathe part to part and I have and use both.

All of our tooling is indexable ceramic inserts except for center drills, drills reamers and taps

I have reducing tubes that reduce the diameter of my headstock or use plastic disks that I fit to the end of the rod that we are turning, While it does not hold the end oustside end prefectly true it doe keep it from flopping around.

Of the few barrel makers that I have visited, they were turning barrel outside contours off of centers in the bore with CNC lathes so at least from my suppliers I know there is a good chance the outside does match closely to the bore.

While we do gun work because I love firearms so much we also make parts for many different industries from submarines to airplanes and space. Our work is checked and accepted using measuring equipment that is not found in many gunshops. It has made us very careful machinests that still are striving to make better and better parts.

In the long story short NesikaChad has got the way things are going to be done more and more in the future with higher and higher levels of perfection. I can program in a correction so small that we are fudging our dials to even get close and unlike a manual lathe the correction will be there until I change it.

It still requires the skill to setup, program, machine and measure the output but the lathe does not come in monday morning exhausted or worse from a weekend.

While sometime I think that the Lathe screws things up to spite me it is always my error that is causing the problem.

Stacking errors happens on all machined parts, that is why we have to have skilled people producing products and checking output but the skills may be different at different points of the production plus rapid communication between the operators and the programmers, which in a two person shop is pretty rapid to say the least since we are often doing both jobs.

Of course this is all just my humble opinion but I think that Chad has a great idea that he was kind enough to share.It is through these efforts that we all get better and our customers receive better rifles as shown by the reduction in groups size over longer and longer ranges. I hope that each of you is looking at your methods and checking to see if anything here will improve your work. If it does I hope you will chare and we will continue to grow.

Lowell
 
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Zebra13 said:
Gents,

If one is going to hold a barrel for chambering as depicted in NesikaChad's photo, i.e., hard jaws clamped directly on the barrel, is there really any reason to dial in the muzzle end with a spider or similar arrangement? I don't know, but it would seem that anything you do on the muzzle end would have no effect on the chamber end as the chuck jaws grip on it would prevent any movement as a result of dialing in the muzzle. So, I guess I'm saying with that particular chambering set up, does an unsupported muzzle really matter? Or am I missing something?

Would a crooked barrel, chambered in the manner above, set off some potentially problematic vibrations as a result of it being unsupported (wobbling within the spindle)?

What about crowing in the same set up? I see a problem trying to hold a tapered barrel straight without some sort of support on the outboard end.

And to save somebody some typing, I understand this is why many here chamber with a piece of wire or split collet affair between the chuck and the barrel, or just use a spider chuck to hold the barrel when chambering.

I look forword to your replies,
Justin
Click to expand...

Justin,

What you just stated is kinda what I hope to find out. If for no other reason just for the experience. Thanks for having an open mind.
 
Eagle_view said:
I did not say the the CNC lathes were not being run by able machinest.

Those steel jaws are replaceable and therefore machineable and I machine them all the time on my Takisawa EX-108 slant bed running the same Fanuc 21i-T controller that this Daewoo Lynx 200L slant bed lathe is using.

I keep several sets plus uncut ones for different jobs and also use aluminum jaws when the work requires it. Most of the time I use a collet chuck with 16C collets.

I put my trust in my programming and this wonderful 6 ton lathe over what I can produce on any manual lathe part to part.

All of our tooling is indexable ceramic inserts except for center drills, drills reamers and taps

I have reducing tubes that reduce the diameter of my headstock or use plastic disks that I fit to the end of the rod that we are turning, While it does not hold the end oustside end prefectly true it doe keep it from flopping around.

Of the few barrel makers that I have visited, they were turning barrel outside contours off of centers in the bore with CNC lathes. We make parts for many different industries from submarines to airplanes and space.

In the long story short NesikaChad has got the way things are going to be done more and more in the future with higher and higher levels of perfection. I can program in a correction so small that we are fudging our dials to even get close and unlike a manual lathe the correction will be there until I change it.

It still requires the skill to setup, program, machine and measure the output but the lathe does not come in monday morning exhausted or worse from a weekend.

While sometime I think that the Lathe screws things up to spite me it is always my error that is causing the problem.

Stacking errors happens on all machined parts, that is why we have to have skilled people producing products and checking output but the skills may be different at different points of the production plus rapid communication between the operators and the programmers, which in a two person shop is pretty rapid to say the least since we are often doing both jobs.

Of course this is all just my humble opinion but I think that Chad has a great idea that he was kind enough to share.It is through these efforts that we all get better and our customers receive better rifles as shown by the reduction in groups size over longer and longer ranges. I hope that each of you is looking at your methods and checking to see if anything here will improve your work. If it does I hope you will chare and we will continue to grow.

Lowell
Click to expand...


Well spoken.

Hats off and cheers to you.

If your ever in the Black Hills and in the mood to eat, stop by the shop and I'll make sure you get fed.

Chad
 
I know there is a good chance the outside does match closely to the bore.
Click to expand...

Section a barrel as Jackie has suggested in another thread. Thinking it will be an eye opening experience for you.

Unless you figure .020"+ TIR is concidered "closely"
 
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OK here is my take on it. you cant assume that the bore is straight it's just a fact of life that drills like to wander even gun drills. this is the reason i dont like almost all floating reamer holders. the only way's that i think that a reamer should be held is ether like chad and myself are or with a lathe dog off of the tailstock and steady rest.

now how to hold the barrel. if chad is able to to play around and get his hard jaws down like in the .0005 range great! with that type of reamer holder it should follow the bore and really not cut over sized to speak of even if the muzzle is walking a bit.

as for myself i cut the chamfers off of both ends of the barrel leaving about .750 on the muzzle end. then we turn between centers to clean up that .750 on the muzzle and have about .050 shoulder. then grab the .750 turned section of the muzzle in a collet and with a live center at the chamber end to do our threading. i use a reamer holder like chad that we run off of our tool post so that we can sweep it in. after that i use the center that is part of the reamer holder to set the barrel in the steady rest for chambering.

this is the best way of doing it that i have been able to come up with in the 6 year's i have been a full time riflesmith.

Jake Collier
 
Let it be known that two weeks ago I dropped $3,000 dollars on a C-16 spindle collet nose and collets from Dunham/Lyndex that can be indicated in just like a four jaw to the nearest gillionth. The benefits here are quick set ups and that I will have more work holding surface contact which I think is quite important. Let it be known that I'm waiting on another $1500 in collets to arrive for the same set up. I've also spent close to 5K on a coolant pump, hydraulic coupler, materials, braided hoses, fittings etc so that I can fully retrofit a $100K turning center (My Doosan) into a barrel eating beast. I have carefully written programs that'll give me receiver/barrel thread fits that I'll put up against anyone anytime, I have drill/ream cycles that make quick work of gutting the ass of a barrel while still holding "benchrest" tolerances.
Click to expand...

Mehemmm. . .:D
 
NesikaChad wrote:

"I have drill/ream cycles that make quick work of gutting the ass of a barrel while still holding "benchrest" tolerances."

Very poetic!
 
Colliers_custom said:
.

...i use a reamer holder like chad that we run off of our tool post so that we can sweep it in...



Jake Collier
Click to expand...

Mr. Collier,

This using the tool post and carriage to chamber is interesting.

Okay...we have a barrel ran through the headstock, both ends indicated in to the gnat's arse, and the chamber pre-bored. We are going to use the tool post and carriage to push the reamer in whilst chambering. Given the adjustability of the carriage and tool post, one could sweep it in to zip.sh!t. Is a floating reamer holder still necessary? Could one just use a center to drive the reamer? Or is your use of the floating reamer holder to off-set any parallelism problems that might exist between the centerline of the barrel and the lathe bed?

Justin
 
Butch Lambert said:
Well I dropped $2500 for a Clausing lathe and spent a few more dollars to tool it up. Not a whole lot more as it was very well equipped. I guess my stuff is a POS as it didn't cost $100,000+.
Check the equip. list of the winners and check what equipment that they are using.
Butch
Click to expand...

And I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
All I am saying is that the CNC lathes are more solid and built to standards way beyond what any Manual lathe is. My CNC has a 10/15HP three phase motor and will run 24/7 if I want to equip it that way. It has five huge bearing just in the headstock and can rip metal like no tomorrow, but it also can turn precisely a bevel, cut beautiful threads, drill and bore, rigid tap and ream to the nth degree.

There are lots of folks that do very fine work on the manual lathes and their skills are to be admired. I do so pretty good work there also but then there are times when I don’t.

How ever to say that our CNC lathes can not do a decent job of chambering is not true. As in all cases it is the machinist that makes the decisions and holds the line on what is workable or not.

It is my belief that in twenty years it will be hard to find a manual lathe doing any commercial work as software, machines and user skills advance and meld together.

Those of us who have for one reason or another access to these machines now are pioneering the skills and methods for one off, quick and accurate setup and highly accurate barrels, chambers and crowns. If I just did gun work I would not have this tool either, or you might say I take on other work so I can have these CNC tool to do what I love and that is working on gun.

No barrel is true through and through, but a barrel turned between centers is a barrel turned between centers, whether it is on a manual lathe or a Cincinnati CNC with pneumatic or hydraulic follow rests or on a South Bend Manual lathe.

I have seen some very fine barrels being made and most of you are shooting them at least in your varmint rifles without caring that they where machine turned on a CNC.

The only way you will get a barrel and know that it is not turned on a CNC is to order all your barrels in unturned for and turn them your self. Most of use can not do that and make any money fitting a barrel at least in the markets that I work in.

Benchrest people do set the standards that we all strive for so their attention to detail and perfection is what leads all shooters to better shooting whether it is targets, varmints, game or tactical shooting. So I fully respect the gunsmiths found on this site and others, I admire your attention to detail and learn all that I can from what you share.

But at an age where I often forget where I put down my glasses, stashed my hearing aids and can’t remember what I measured from one end of the lathe to the other, I find comfort in being able to write a program that holds all this information from one barrel to the next whether I am doing three barrel in a day or have 6 months between barrels.

As more people become skilled in using CNC lathes we will see more tool developments like Chad made.

I hope everyone has a great evening, and Chad when I get the ND next time I will look you up and the reverse is true here too and that goes out to the rest of you also.

I was thinking about going the ND for a Baffalo hunt but I haven't built the rifle yet so it may be awhile.

Lowell
 
Justin

"Is a floating reamer holder still necessary?"
I think so cause who to say's the bore go's in a straight line from point 1 to 2 where you indicated from.

"Could one just use a center to drive the reamer?"
that's about all it is. mine is just a dead center that i made is held on my aloris tool post. then it's just has two collars, three bolts and three springs just like chads. one collar over the dead center and one to hold the reamer. this only allows for the pilot to float and follow the bore while the back of the reamer sit's on the dead center.

"is your use of the floating reamer holder to off-set any parallelism problems"
no it wont do you any good there it is just to follow the bore.

I hope this helps you.

Jake Collier
 
Over 100 years ago, Harry Pope was working in tenths with equiptment
that might run to .002. Overhead shafts with leather belts flapping away.
He did it with very sound principles.Ferris Pindell once told me the same thing.
Although that seems to defy reason, skilled people turn out great work on
worn out equiptment all over this country. Fitting and chambering barrels
is a love affair for me and the roughly 6 hours it takes is fun
 
hey butch

hey i hate to burst your bubble but all 4 machines in my shop are manuals and i never commented on the CNC end of things.

Jake
 
The best floating reamer holder made might follow the bore on 2 planes
but never on all three. Can't be done. On its best day, its still only
following the bore after the bore moves.
 
I think the result of the finished barrel out of whatever type of machine or process is what you'd want to talk about. How you get there may not be so important. Because as far as I know you won't get there consistently unless you do the work right on each job.

If you can't measure the finished jobs how can you know if you did it right? Shooting results might be one measure or using super high end inspection equipment might be another.

It is generally acknowledged that fine shooting rifles have been and continue to be made with older machining equipment. I see no reason why modern computer controlled machines can't do the same or better given proper input and set-up by a human. For sure automated machines can do it faster and easier just the same as they can do so in production settings in industry.

So doesn't it really boil down to the care given to the set-up of the job?
 
And if you go back and read my posts is what I have been saying. It is the guy or gal doing the work that is the most important.

Chad is exploring, I believe, an exciting effort that merges new technology with proven standards to improve the sport. If he wasn't he would not be on this forum and sharing his efforts.

As for me, I am just an old fool that loves to build the best firearms that I can and will try anything that will make them better,

I like being able to make what ever rifle part that I need and to be able to do it one time or a thousand times. If it was not for new technology we would still be shooting flintlocks.

Lowell
 
Butch Lambert said:
Lowell, Jake, and Chad. The manual lathes will be used for rebarreling for more than the next 20yrs. Guys will need a way to chamber BR quality barrels. I agree that a barrel contoured between centers will be as close with either the manual or CNC lathes. What does that have to do with a precision chamber? Tell me what happens when your drop dead machine with your floating reamer holder follows the bore? If the bore turns a few tenths, what does it do to your chamber? Admittedly on a production run on hunting barrels it probably doesn't matter. Am I splitting hairs, yes, but that is what we want on BR chambers.
We have heard about your super machines and for what they are designed for they do an excellent job.
I would love to hear about how you set up your barrels in your lathes. I hope you are not depending on the barrelmakers contouring and clamping in a 3 jaw and floating the reamer in to do a BR quality job.
Butch
Click to expand...

Let it be known that two weeks ago I dropped $3,000 dollars on a C-16 spindle collet nose and collets from Dunham/Lyndex that can be indicated in just like a four jaw to the nearest gillionth. The benefits here are quick set ups and that I will have more work holding surface contact which I think is quite important. Let it be known that I'm waiting on another $1500 in collets to arrive for the same set up. I've also spent close to 5K on a coolant pump, hydraulic coupler, materials, braided hoses, fittings etc so that I can fully retrofit a $100K turning center (My Doosan) into a barrel eating beast. I have carefully written programs that'll give me receiver/barrel thread fits that I'll put up against anyone anytime, I have drill/ream cycles that make quick work of gutting the ass of a barrel while still holding "benchrest" tolerances.
Click to expand...

Maybe try sounding out the words this time. READ what I say. This was an EXPERIMENT. (One that seems to have worked quite well as a matter of fact) I'm using a C-16 collet assy now that is able to be indicated JUST LIKE A 4 JAW.

If you think I chit barrels like tie rod ends at Toyota your mistaken. NONE of what I do is production work when it comes to firearms. I use a CNC turning center because I've yet to see anyone thread a tennon at 2500rpm with any hope of being jonny on the spot when that tool gets close to the shoulder. A CNC does it all day long. This is the kind of RPM where a carbide insert actually works like its supposed to. I use a CNC because it weighs in at close to 5 figures and that meant something to ol Isaac Newton and I. Last I use a CNC because I can kink in a couple tenths using my finger instead of having to spray chicken blood and goat bones all over the floor hoping that tool deflection, backlash, tool post flex, and part deflection in a manual machine aren't going to try and screw me. I can run a manual machine quite well, but to do so requires TIME. TIME I could be devoting to other things to improve upon a process/product and MAKE MORE MONEY.

Remember, the whole point of this was to point out a way to hold a damn reamer, not have an old lady B**** session over 3 jaw chucks and gun barrels.

I love this place!

Chad
 
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