Setting up a tuner?

M

Mooseyard

Guest
This evening I was setting up my first rifle with a tuner and VonAhrens weights. I followed Mr. Killoughs directions about setting up the tuner, but I made some observations and I'm wondering if they are normal. To start I shot a 3 shot group with the tuner at 250 and the 1oz weight on the tuner. Per Dans instructions you are to add .5 oz at a time and shoot a group at each weight level. Then find your smallest group and leave the weight at that, and then adjust the tuner. I was expecting that as I would shoot and add weight I would slowly get smaller and smaller groups until I reached a point where the groups would start to get larger again. This wasn't the case, instead 1-2.5 oz were bad groups, 3 oz was a really good group, 3.5 was bad 4 was great 4.5-6 were bad and so on. Is this normal? After I did all of the group shooting I put the tuner at 6.5 oz and shot a target for score. I shot a 247 8X and the last 10 shots were so dark that I really couldn't see the crosshairs (not to mention the mosquitos were eating me alive). The 3 points I dropped were all in the last row of targets. I'm happy with the way the guns is shooting, just a little confused about why the group sizes are all over the place. I hope this made sense to everyone. Any help you can give a new guy is appreciated.:D
 
Harmonics

is what you're trying to reduce or eliminate and you've noted that at different weights there is more or less vibration in the barrel as evidenced by bad or good groups respectively. .22 barrels are individuals and each has a weight adjustment that will result in minimum vibration and good (for that barrel) groups. What you're seeing is that there are a couple of places where vibration is at a minimum for your barrel/tuner/ammo combination. Once adjusted for your barrel you'll be tuned (or nearly so) for most ammo. Sounds as if 3 oz. followed by adjustment should work for you. Good shooting!
Rick
 
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mooseyard,

It sounds like you are on the right track. I would just repeat the process, and see if you can come up with the same results. Also, shoot more than one group with each weight setting. I typically like to shoot 5 at each setting. I then measure each group and get an average for each weight setting. Typically you will see the groups tighten up then open back up as you add weight. For example, 5.5 oz bad group, 6 oz good group, 6.5 oz great group, 7 oz good group, 7.5 oz bad group. But these little rimfires are peculiar sometimes, and every gun is different. So, what my gun does could be different from what yours does. Just repeat the process 2-3 times until you are satisfied you have it set correctly. The main thing is for you to be confident that your gun is shooting as good as it possibly can. If you are not confident in your gun, when you shoot a bad target you will start adjusting. And 90% of the time when you start adjusting at a match, you are sunk.

I hope this helps,

Dan Killough
 
To mooseyard...

I have something you might try:
Shoot a number of 5 shot groups as you make tuner adjustments in any manner you wish. You can shoot one group and make an adjustment or shoot several groups between adjustments. Record the group sizes in the order you shoot them. Let's say when you're done you have fired a series of 10 or 20 or maybe even 50 groups. Then shoot another series of the same number of groups without making any tuner adjustments and record each group size. Compare the two series of groups and decide what they tell you.
 
dankillough said:
mooseyard,

It sounds like you are on the right track. I would just repeat the process, and see if you can come up with the same results. Also, shoot more than one group with each weight setting. I typically like to shoot 5 at each setting. I then measure each group and get an average for each weight setting. Typically you will see the groups tighten up then open back up as you add weight. For example, 5.5 oz bad group, 6 oz good group, 6.5 oz great group, 7 oz good group, 7.5 oz bad group. But these little rimfires are peculiar sometimes, and every gun is different. So, what my gun does could be different from what yours does. Just repeat the process 2-3 times until you are satisfied you have it set correctly. The main thing is for you to be confident that your gun is shooting as good as it possibly can. If you are not confident in your gun, when you shoot a bad target you will start adjusting. And 90% of the time when you start adjusting at a match, you are sunk.

I hope this helps,

Dan Killough
Click to expand...

Dan,

When you shoot those five 3 shot groups do you use a single lot of GOOD SHOOTING AMMO or do you try to shoot mixed lots with High and Low Velocities? Sort of like Bill Calfee talks about?

Thanks .... Mike S
 
I do it with 3 different lots of ammo. One as slow as I can find, One as fast as I can find, and One in the middle.

Mooseyard,
Try what pacecil suggests. I would be interested in the results.

Thank you,
Dan Killough
 
After having done this many times, I don't have faith in this procedure. I have witnessed others 'tuning' with a 3 shot group and unless the rifle/ammo combo will produce many groups of the same size with the same weight combo, then it is just random results. How many times have you seen a rifle shoot a one bullet hole 3 shot group, then right after that, scatter the next 3 into the .4 range?

If a setting looks good for 3 shots, then go ahead and shoot some more 3 shot groups. If they 'keep' looking good, then you are close.
 
B. Harvey said:
After having done this many times, I don't have faith in this procedure. I have witnessed others 'tuning' with a 3 shot group and unless the rifle/ammo combo will produce many groups of the same size with the same weight combo, then it is just random results. How many times have you seen a rifle shoot a one bullet hole 3 shot group, then right after that, scatter the next 3 into the .4 range?

If a setting looks good for 3 shots, then go ahead and shoot some more 3 shot groups. If they 'keep' looking good, then you are close.
Click to expand...

Hi Brian ... Dan said he shoots FIVE 3 Shot Groups .... and then averages the group size of the five groups .... and then goes with the weight that produces the best average group size (I think that's what he said anyway) Why is it that using the average of five 3 shots groups to compare wouldn't be any good?

Fred
 
pacecil said:
I have something you might try:
Shoot a number of 5 shot groups as you make tuner adjustments in any manner you wish. You can shoot one group and make an adjustment or shoot several groups between adjustments. Record the group sizes in the order you shoot them. Let's say when you're done you have fired a series of 10 or 20 or maybe even 50 groups. Then shoot another series of the same number of groups without making any tuner adjustments and record each group size. Compare the two series of groups and decide what they tell you.
Click to expand...


Reading between the lines, my guess is that you are saying they will tell you the tuner is ineffective or at best arbritrary.
 
Mooseyard said he shot a 3 shot group and then changed weights.

The a means a single 3 shot group and therefore I was suggesting he not base the weight chosen on a single group.
 
You going to get different opinions based on what has worked for others. After what you think looks good with your groups, you need to shoot for score in different conditions to see if your setting holds true when that rifle gets moved a bunch, you may be surprised that your rifle is not agreeing with the conditions with that tuner setting even though you were shooting good groups, considering your setup is consistent.

Good luck and have fun.


Take Care,
Joe
 
B. Harvey said:
Mooseyard said he shot a 3 shot group and then changed weights.

The a means a single 3 shot group and therefore I was suggesting he not base the weight chosen on a single group.
Click to expand...

Gotcha .... thought you were replying to Dans Post ....

Fred
 
Thanks everyone for the advice and suggestions. It sounds like I've got a lot more work to do.
 
pacecil said:
I have something you might try:
Shoot a number of 5 shot groups as you make tuner adjustments in any manner you wish. You can shoot one group and make an adjustment or shoot several groups between adjustments. Record the group sizes in the order you shoot them. Let's say when you're done you have fired a series of 10 or 20 or maybe even 50 groups. Then shoot another series of the same number of groups without making any tuner adjustments and record each group size. Compare the two series of groups and decide what they tell you.
Click to expand...

Mooseyard, although you asked for help,this here one is a trick question. Cecil here does not believe in tuners so this is designed to screw you up. He also does not believe in match shooting and possibly gravity, from what I can tell every once an a while somebody leaves the front door to the asylum unattended and he makes his way to a keyboard. We'll try and keep an eye on him and good luck with the tuner setup, it's hard enough without this BS.:D:D
 
Tim

You have GOT to stop it! I about laughed out loud at your post. pacecil is generally a bit off the beam,sometimes i think it is just to give us a chuckle as no one could be that looney!!
Anyway.............Thanks Tim.
Colt.45
 
Stopping the barrel

My Friends,
In order to correctly have your tuner tuned you Must stop the barrel.
To achieve this you need shoot a number of groups havinging found the right spot for node location. You must also ring the barrel finding perfect harmony with the harmonics and E-flat with a consistent temperature of 77.659 F. and a relative humidity of 73.136 percent. If after having shot five, five shot groups and three ARA targets you and your rifle have not bonded. There is one other method you should try to find the ultimate setting for the tuner.
Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to explain this other simple test in that I have five Bass Rods to complete before saturday. Give aforementioned a try and I will be back to explain once I'm caught up with my outstanding orders. Your Friend JACK
 
tim said:
Mooseyard, although you asked for help,this here one is a trick question. Cecil here does not believe in tuners so this is designed to screw you up. He also does not believe in match shooting and possibly gravity, from what I can tell every once an a while somebody leaves the front door to the asylum unattended and he makes his way to a keyboard. We'll try and keep an eye on him and good luck with the tuner setup, it's hard enough without this BS.:D:D
Click to expand...

I was a little concerned because it didn't seem like his testing was going to show anything related to setting the tuner, but then Dan chimed in and told me to try it. I guess I'm going to stick with the general thinking that tuners are good and have a purpose. I'm not going to waste my precious time or ammo testing someone elses theory.
 
Jack, since you brought up the professor, I'll just try to figure out what he has said (he's been hanging out on the centerfire board). First he tests at 42yds, but if I missed it he never said why? He uses two velocities ammo, about 40fps difference, fires two shots, sees only verticle, never mentions windage, I guess because a killer rifle don't need no windage. Then start adding weight, shoot two rounds, watch the verticle disappear.

I have not yet tried this myself, but plan do do so in the near future.

Thanks, Douglas
 
Mooseyard,

I recommended that you try pacecil's request so you could prove to yourself that the tuner works. I know that if you tried it, you would prove that it works. Sometimes you have to try these things so that you will not question them. These rimfires have so many variables, that anytime you can prove or disprove that something works, you need to do it. You need to do it to erase the questions in the back of your mind that you will have when the gun does not shoot good.

I recently had a bad match, and I did not sleep for 2 days because I was trying to figure out what happened. Is my gun tuned correctly? Do I have the correct amount of weight on the tuner? Is my tuner on the right setting? Maybe I do not need the mid-barrel tuner?

So, I went through the process of tuning my rifle on 4 different occasions. I checked anything and everything I could think of. Turns out that it was my trigger. I still do not know exactly what was wrong with the trigger, but a new trigger fixed the problem. Gun shoots great now, and I know without a doubt that my gun is tuned correctly. Now if this happens again, I will absolutely know that it is not my tuner.

I do not agree with pacecil about tuners, but I do agree with him that we need to test everything we try. I think a large number of shooters will change something and then shoot one great group and think they have found something. If it truely helps, it will shoot better consistently not every once in a while.

I hope this helps, and remember to test, test and then test again,

Dan Killough
 
Friend Douglas

I've heard about this 42yd. stuff but have never tried it either. I'm just an old country boy whose not had opportunity to travel much. Though I must advise that in what little I've shot in this great country; each and every time the match director has forced me to place my target at 50yds. or in some cases a little farther out to 50 mtrs.
I've still got these rods to finish up for the big bass tournament this saturday, I'll be back in the near future to explain my simple tuning test.
Your friend Jack

P.S. Keep us all informed on how your 42yd. shooting goes.
 
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