Set of different thickness case head holders

R

rooshooter

New member
I remember eading a while ago about someone making case head holders of varying thicknesses so the shoulder push back can be adjusted. I havent seen these recently, does anyone know if they are still made?
 
Charles E said:
Redding makes them. I believe they call them "Competition Shell Holder Set." Sinclair Internationals sells them, as do other vendors, but that "International"'s gotta count for something...

You can also epoxy shim stock to an existing shell holder, if you have more time than money...

Here is the link

http://www.redding-reloading.com/in...ew=article&id=35:competition-shellholder-sets
Click to expand...

Thanks. I had looked at the Sinclairs site, but must have missed it I will add a set to my next order.
 
Shell holders

Sinclair also carries Skip's Machine Die Shims for about 1/5 the cost of a set of Redding Competition Shellholders.

You leave the die lock ring set and change shims until you find the right one.

Works nice as can be.


Jim
 
I have a set of the Redding Variable Depth Shell Holders for bouth PPC and .473 rim size. They come in pretty handy. I only wish they made them in .001 increments.........jackie
 
rooshooter said:
Yes, I have the shims, but wanted to be able to just bottom the die out on the shell holder.
Click to expand...
Well, when you find the right thickness shim, just get a piece of stock & epoxy it to the top of the shellholder. With a cutout so you can insert the case, of course...
 
I grind the bottom of all my dies off on the table grinder.

And I've got 5-6 sets of Skipper's shims. Best things since sliced bologna.

al
 
alinwa said:
I grind the bottom of all my dies off on the table grinder. And I've got 5-6 sets of Skipper's shims. Best things since sliced bologna. al
Click to expand...

I'm confused, Al. A number of us believe that if the shellholder hits the die, the press is taken out of the equation -- the die and the shellholder, with the case in between, becomes a closed system. The press, and any of it's tolerances etc., becomes irrelevant.

I thought you were in agreement -- IIRC, you do agree that with a properly set up system, sloppiness etc. in the press is not an issue. You're still saying this even if the shellholder doesn't function as a cap for the die?
 
I have never subscribed to the "shellholder should touch the die to ensure the lash is taken out of the system" theory.

never

In 15+yrs of posting here I've had the argument many times. I guess I could agree that given a seriously weak 'C' press it _could_ help but IMO if your press is deflecting enough to make it necessary then you're probably bending your caseheads out of square and "more" can't really be better there either, so nope, I can't see ANY advantage to bending or "camming over" the press.

As for "sloppiness" being an issue I feel this to be absurd. The sloppier the better given a fairly stiff press. I've told the story many times of my reloading mentor bringing me downstairs to show off his new score, a Hollywood press!!! "HoooWEEEE!!! This thing's so massive and so well mo'chined it'll make rounds so peculiarly perfect as to be invisible! Light itself will bend right around them.... not even acknowledge 'em!"

So into this beauteous piece you cram a random shellholder from the box of random shellholders......... stuff a case in and gently SSWAGE the hannle down.....


yeahh right


lol



al
 
John Kielly said:
al,

Ever thunk of being a political commentator? You got just the right degree of cynicism.

Lefty
Click to expand...
Yeah, but a too-obvious bias. Like a lot of people on our site, Al prefers the time of our founders -- you know, outhouses, the left hand, a bucket of water....
 
Charles E said:
Yeah, but a too-obvious bias. Like a lot of people on our site, Al prefers the time of our founders -- you know, outhouses, the left hand, a bucket of water....
Click to expand...

I kept reading about the precision shoulder bump. I spent hours and hours, and most of the bad words I learned from my drill sargent in basic training, and there was essentially no way I could get a consistant 0.001" or 0.002" shoulder bump. Brass acted pretty much like precision machining of pink peral eraser. Heck, I couldn't even measure the shoulder bump repeatedly to that level of precision. So, taking for granted that it was important because everybody who I viewed as an expert said it was, and my .30-06 brass would stretch itself into imminant self destruction (0.005" of case thinning) in 4 uses, I took on trying to duplicate the performance of the experts.

Understand, I thought when I started that working with brass sheetmetal configured as bottleneck rifle brass to the sub mill tolerances bandied about is a myth. And I still do. And I don't think that level of precision is needed because the rifle chamber is the same every time and the brass expands to fit it before the bullet even leaves. What does matter to a guy like me making hunting ammo is controlling stretch to minimize case thinning just above the base. This is especially important on rimmed magnums or rimmed rifle cases where the shoulder has no part of the actual headspace measurement. It's complicated by the fact that the technique I was using is about as precise as precision slicing cheese.

OK, so because my .30-06 and 7mmMAG brass wasn't lasting very long I decided to figure out how to make real measurable shoulder bumps of 0.001" to 0.002" happen on a predictable basis. My first project was to figure out a reasonable way to measure this.

I started with the Hornady set with a red fixture that clamps to one jaw of the digital calipers, and their full set of inserts. They recommend applying the inserts to contact the case about halfway between the shoulder/case and shoulder/neck intersections. I worked with that for a long time but found that I could resize and measure the same case and get a different reading. I finally figured out that the expander button had a huge effect on the shoulder where the tool was making it's measurement. I determined that the actual shoulder wasn't moving from die trip to die trip, but the button drag changed it where I was measuring and so did it's distortion of the brass.

So I designed a set of substitute collars to use in the tool. Outside shape was the same, but I made up a table of dimensions for the small hole, the larger hole, and the angle where the collar would touch the brass. I dimensioned it so the contact point would occur pretty much on a band 20 to 30 mills wide right at the shoulder with a collar surface cut to the SAAMI angle (to the acccuracy of my compound angle measurements). Table and sketch in hand, I went to the shop, oiled up the old 9" South Bend, stuck a piece of 3/4" aluminum rod through the spindle and machined a new set of collars. [I love that old lathe, it's quiet, accurate, repeats really well, has accurate lead screws, and I've been using it since I was 8 years old (62 years I've used it) - so the fun and relaxation were a bonus.]

Armed with the new collars which made much more reliable measurements of the parameter of interest than the originals, I took on the adjustment of the die itself. I tried shims under the die lock ring to adjust the gap between the shell holder and the base of the die which intern adjusted the shoulder bump. Well, after hours and hours, and uttering every bad word I know, and some new ones I made up on the spot, I was nowhere. Remove the die, replace it, and go thorugh the whole process all over again. I even tried schemes for torquing the dies into the press using a deep socket on the lock ring (a Redding Boss press, if it matters). No success at getting the results I heard being bandied about on the web by those that had the "right stuff".

I finally concluded that I was missing something or those guys with the right stuff were just plain BSing all of us because I could "not" duplicate their results. I hadn't tried a custom die but with the tools I had, it was not happening. Period.

Then I read about the Redding competition shell holders. Once I figured out how they worked, varying the thickness of the rim to bring the base to shoulder distance under the control of a hard mechanical interferernce that left the press mechanism and even die tightness in the press, out of the equation, I figure that might be the way to go. So I bought a set for the Redding size 1 shell holder and by golly, suddenly I had "the right stuff" for my .243, .22-250, and .30-06. They worked great. Most of the time I get a repeatable +/- 0.001" bump using the #4 shell holder (0.004" thicker rim). I have a Lyman 7mmMAG die that won't work no matter what, it over bumps the shoulder by seven mills even with the #10 holder in place, so I round filed it, but any other die i can set up to size to a reliable shoulder bump with no problem.

The only bottle neck rifle cartridge I don't use them on is the .22 Hornet because the brass is so thin it wouldn't matter - it would make cheese slicing look like ultimate precision. I just neck size them and don't worry about it, and they always chamber in my CZ Hornet - isn't broke so I'm not fixing it. The actual measured rim thickness headspace on the CZ is about 0.001" as close as I can measure it based on primer protrusion below the base when primed empty brass with no bullet is fired in the chamber).

I've found the competition shell holders combined with the full contact holder/die base interface is a whole bunch faster to adjust for an ~zero to 0.002" shoulder bump than any other method I've tried. Nobody not bumping the shell holder into the base of the die should fool themselves into thinking including their press linkage and ram fit into the sizing process has anything like the same repeatability as the holder/die pressed together. What I get out of bumping them together, as near as I can measure it, is repeatability within a mill or a bit less. Better than I expected when I started. Pretty good for working the the metalic equivelant of rubber.

Al, you and I can agree to disagree right now and save a lot of typing. You will never change my mind and convince me that having the linkage in the loop improves the accuracy or repeatability of the process. And I realize from reading your post above that I'll never convince you that taking it out of the loop will improve the accuracy or repeatability of the process, so I won't try.

Fitch
 
Fitch, you DID try. Nice post, I appreciate it :)

Now, you're a bright guy. And you figgered out (after deciding everyone must be idiots, liars or both) that it CAN be done. Proper brass manipulation is possible.....

((And BTW the 7MM Mag die is manufactured to headspace off the belt, they nearly all over-size the shoulder. You coulda' fixed it with your lathe))

If you're ever interested in the next step, segregating cases by feel, adjusting for temperature changes, adjusting for age/work-hardening, in short if you ever want to enjoy truly endless case life where you can just load and shoot the cases over and over until you screw up (overload, drop 'em on the floor, etc) and not have the safety/accuracy issues associated with multiple reloads,


call me ;)


You're part way there. Hey, finding out that your "right stuff guys" weren't completely off their rockers was a start eh!


LOL


al
 
alinwa said:
((And BTW the 7MM Mag die is manufactured to headspace off the belt, they nearly all over-size the shoulder. You coulda' fixed it with your lathe))

al
Click to expand...

Hi Al,

OK, I was with ya till there. I've chambered a 7mm belted magnum, I know how it head spaces (the go and no-go gages are truly wierd looking compared to those for an '06, for example). It's bumping the shoulders too much because it's too short from belt to shoulder. I am not following how cutting more off it will make it better. And I'm not sure how I can make it longer with the lathe.

I could epoxy some shim stock to it, but I preferred to just use the one (that came with the RCBS competition seating die) that was long enough that it worked with the redding competition shell holder set (Redding shell holder #6). That FL sizing die used with the #4 holder sizes them perfectly for my Savage BVSS.

What am I missing?

Fitch
 
Well, it's a little known fact that you can iron dies out to be longer in the lathe........


You make up a mandrel and run your knurling attachment in hard, working back and forth from center......


:)




nope, I just hadda' brain fart, you ain't missin' nuttin'....... I had a bout of spatial dyslexia, that part of my brain sometimes goofs up due to an accident I suffered at birth. I was born a human.

You've got it, the answer is to "back the die off" or up or whatever, get the shoulder further away from the shellholder.




al
 
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