L
lead head
Guest
pellets
Thanks Dave
Larry
Thanks Dave
Larry
L
lead head
Guest
Shadowwalker
Frank
Give me a call about the matches.
Larry
Frank
Give me a call about the matches.
Larry
C
crazyhorse
Guest
Yep...
I started out weighing/sorting...then I got into checking head/skirt diameters with a digital caliper...that takes time and easy to mis-read measurement. When I heard about guys "rolling" pellets,I tried it...one thing it does if you are careful,is it highlights pellet skirts that are "undersize" faster than measuring...but you must be careful on speed..also care must be taken to start pellet rolling exactly same way each time...
Important to align pellet skirt on "start line"...then you want pellet to roll slow as possible...I'm using a 1/4" shim under frame/glass now which gives about a 5 degree slope and most will roll on their own..
I used a piece of tape to mark "first test" pellet at end of it's arc(one I knew head/skirt diameter was correct)...did this several times using that pellet as "the template"......then rolled remaining pellets noting where they ended against that mark...
This is where judgment comes into play..deciding "tolerance" beyond the control mark.....ie "short arc" or "long arc"...
In this pic,if pellet is "under" mark,that indicates a smaller diameter skirt...if above mark...larger...you have to decide how much either way is ok...what I do is "reject" any that fall 3/8" below mark...I think I can tolerate larger skirts due to my barrel choke..but have yet to test shoot those on target..
I started out weighing/sorting...then I got into checking head/skirt diameters with a digital caliper...that takes time and easy to mis-read measurement. When I heard about guys "rolling" pellets,I tried it...one thing it does if you are careful,is it highlights pellet skirts that are "undersize" faster than measuring...but you must be careful on speed..also care must be taken to start pellet rolling exactly same way each time...
Important to align pellet skirt on "start line"...then you want pellet to roll slow as possible...I'm using a 1/4" shim under frame/glass now which gives about a 5 degree slope and most will roll on their own..
I used a piece of tape to mark "first test" pellet at end of it's arc(one I knew head/skirt diameter was correct)...did this several times using that pellet as "the template"......then rolled remaining pellets noting where they ended against that mark...
This is where judgment comes into play..deciding "tolerance" beyond the control mark.....ie "short arc" or "long arc"...
In this pic,if pellet is "under" mark,that indicates a smaller diameter skirt...if above mark...larger...you have to decide how much either way is ok...what I do is "reject" any that fall 3/8" below mark...I think I can tolerate larger skirts due to my barrel choke..but have yet to test shoot those on target..
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L
lead head
Guest
pellets
Thanks crazyhorse,
How far are you from Port Hueneme, CA? I was stationed there during the late 60's
Larry
Thanks crazyhorse,
How far are you from Port Hueneme, CA? I was stationed there during the late 60's
Larry
C
crazyhorse
Guest
I'm south about 120 miles.....just 25 miles east of San Diego...I was at Camp Pendleton in 1962..was discharged in 1966...USMC..
S
shadowalker
Guest
Paul
To answer your question on breech tollerances....I have no idea. I set mine so that there is some pressure on the ring but not hard. I also put a ring w/ set screw on my bbl. so I can remove it and put it back to the same setting. I also made a new top block and have a cam set-up stop to put the swing bolt exactlly in the center of the bore.
Is anybody using dot reticules for shooting? I am tempted to send my scope off and have a small dot put in so I can stay inside the X ring.
On another note,Larry Duraham is most probably the man to talk to on the Mac Gun but my experiences attempting that along with many others unfortunatly find the groups focus is more on preserving status than advancing the sport. It is a shame as he is so talented and so much info could be shared and a lot learned the easy way not only saving us a bunch of time but promoting Tim's gun. Because of benchrest the gun is being taken to a new level in accuracy and some do not understand or are unwilling to know how it is being done. Shooting at a 6 inch plate is not the same as shooting a .100 group at 50 yds
To answer your question on breech tollerances....I have no idea. I set mine so that there is some pressure on the ring but not hard. I also put a ring w/ set screw on my bbl. so I can remove it and put it back to the same setting. I also made a new top block and have a cam set-up stop to put the swing bolt exactlly in the center of the bore.
Is anybody using dot reticules for shooting? I am tempted to send my scope off and have a small dot put in so I can stay inside the X ring.
On another note,Larry Duraham is most probably the man to talk to on the Mac Gun but my experiences attempting that along with many others unfortunatly find the groups focus is more on preserving status than advancing the sport. It is a shame as he is so talented and so much info could be shared and a lot learned the easy way not only saving us a bunch of time but promoting Tim's gun. Because of benchrest the gun is being taken to a new level in accuracy and some do not understand or are unwilling to know how it is being done. Shooting at a 6 inch plate is not the same as shooting a .100 group at 50 yds
P
Paul Bendix
Guest
Shadowalker, I did work on my USFT Valve and swing breech this week. Before I could only get 800 fps out of my .22 barrel. Now I can get up to over 900 fps with JSB 18.1. I had a huge burr where the two holes come together in the swing breech. Using a small ball grinder. I also opened it up a little. Both the .177 barrel and .22 barrel are choked at the breech??
If I slug the barrel from the breech after 1 1/2 inch the pellet in the .22 barrel falls out on it's own. If I slug it from the muzzle I get slight marks and gets tight close to the breech. I ordered a .20 barrel from Tim. Hope that comes in OK. I wonder if when he chucks the barrel to cut the O ring grouve the chuck being clamped tight is choking the barrel ? The .177 is almost as bad but the pellet is loose but doesn't fall out on it's own. Will wait until I get the .20 barrel before I do any more testing.
I shot my Theoben in .177 a different barrel for the first two targets. Mid 240's. The last target my .22 Rapid and shot a 250 4X. Hope to have the USFT shooting by the next match.
Paul
If I slug the barrel from the breech after 1 1/2 inch the pellet in the .22 barrel falls out on it's own. If I slug it from the muzzle I get slight marks and gets tight close to the breech. I ordered a .20 barrel from Tim. Hope that comes in OK. I wonder if when he chucks the barrel to cut the O ring grouve the chuck being clamped tight is choking the barrel ? The .177 is almost as bad but the pellet is loose but doesn't fall out on it's own. Will wait until I get the .20 barrel before I do any more testing.
I shot my Theoben in .177 a different barrel for the first two targets. Mid 240's. The last target my .22 Rapid and shot a 250 4X. Hope to have the USFT shooting by the next match.
Paul
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shadowalker
Guest
John............on your lube
You might concider running accuracy tests on other lubes.
This can only be done in absolute zero conditions. You are wasting your time otherwise and will learn nothing.
I ran a series of lube tests in my tube some time ago when starting the quest. Kry-Tech is very good but not the best if you seek extreme accuracy. I tested 4 different super lubes all with credentials out the wa-zoo. However the truth is always found on your target not in some advertizment. I have run this test over 3 times with the same results.
The logic of this statement are simple. I want to be perfectly sure I am going to the bench using a lube that produces the smallest Aggs. If I don't I will get beat by the fellow that does.
Respectfully, Frank
You might concider running accuracy tests on other lubes.
This can only be done in absolute zero conditions. You are wasting your time otherwise and will learn nothing.
I ran a series of lube tests in my tube some time ago when starting the quest. Kry-Tech is very good but not the best if you seek extreme accuracy. I tested 4 different super lubes all with credentials out the wa-zoo. However the truth is always found on your target not in some advertizment. I have run this test over 3 times with the same results.
The logic of this statement are simple. I want to be perfectly sure I am going to the bench using a lube that produces the smallest Aggs. If I don't I will get beat by the fellow that does.
Respectfully, Frank
S
shadowalker
Guest
Paul..........your bb
Paul I worked for Shilen for over 8 years. I have evaluated millions of barrels.
I know what good and bad look like and what does and does not make them shoot.
Airgun is not different as the uninitiated would lead you to believe.
Tests preformed with factory airgun bbls against custom bbls will show you a bunch. I have lapped factory bbls that the mfger swore had choke but careful gauge measuring and slugging proved they had none. Once the breech area was extended and opened up leaving the muzzle untouched they shot much better.
Tests confirm choke bbls do shoot better than unchoked and yes the choke should be at the muzzle. Around.0003+ is good. I can't imagine a pellet falling out the muzzle. I would be on the phone in a minute.
Interior finish is very importent but one needs a borescope and experience to know what to look for, what is good and what is bad. Trust me shiny does not equate to good. Your average gunsmith is not equipped to do make this evaluation. Seek only the good benchrest gun makers.
The crown and chamber must be flawless on lead projectiles, we learned this on rimfire bench guns.
Lothar Walther makes a flawless choked bbl. Ed Shilen and I have had a hard look at a bunch of them.
Respectfully, Frank
Paul I worked for Shilen for over 8 years. I have evaluated millions of barrels.
I know what good and bad look like and what does and does not make them shoot.
Airgun is not different as the uninitiated would lead you to believe.
Tests preformed with factory airgun bbls against custom bbls will show you a bunch. I have lapped factory bbls that the mfger swore had choke but careful gauge measuring and slugging proved they had none. Once the breech area was extended and opened up leaving the muzzle untouched they shot much better.
Tests confirm choke bbls do shoot better than unchoked and yes the choke should be at the muzzle. Around.0003+ is good. I can't imagine a pellet falling out the muzzle. I would be on the phone in a minute.
Interior finish is very importent but one needs a borescope and experience to know what to look for, what is good and what is bad. Trust me shiny does not equate to good. Your average gunsmith is not equipped to do make this evaluation. Seek only the good benchrest gun makers.
The crown and chamber must be flawless on lead projectiles, we learned this on rimfire bench guns.
Lothar Walther makes a flawless choked bbl. Ed Shilen and I have had a hard look at a bunch of them.
Respectfully, Frank
P
Paul Bendix
Guest
Shadow walker,
Thanks for your input on my USFT barrels. I bought the USFT used and knew it didn't shoot that well to start with. I did order .20 barrel from Tim but havn't received it as yet. I have no Idea who makes it.
At the match this weekend I did slug a USFT .22 barrel and it did have a choke at the muzzle. The lands were not as deep as with my Theoben barrels.
Who should I order a Lothar Walther barrel from that would set it up for a USFT?
Thanks for your input.
Paul
Thanks for your input on my USFT barrels. I bought the USFT used and knew it didn't shoot that well to start with. I did order .20 barrel from Tim but havn't received it as yet. I have no Idea who makes it.
At the match this weekend I did slug a USFT .22 barrel and it did have a choke at the muzzle. The lands were not as deep as with my Theoben barrels.
Who should I order a Lothar Walther barrel from that would set it up for a USFT?
Thanks for your input.
Paul
S
shadowalker
Guest
Paul, benchrest bbl.
Good morning Paul, get on the web and pull up Lothar Walther.com Their websight will fill you in on what you need to know. Woody answers the phone himself so you won't be talking to no turkey.
I spend most of my waking time testing and retesting in the best air I can find and my offerings for what ever they are worth come out of that envirement. I offer no BS just findings.
My thoughts on the rolling of pellets:
How do you know which diameter(front or back) is giving you the info?
A change in either will give you the same affect/arc.
About 6 months ago I ran serious tests in my tube with pellets put through a die to insure skirt diameter to .0001.................it made no difference in accuracy.
Things to ponder:
About a week ago I had dead air in my building and had 3 consecutive groups in the ones setting on a 65 yd target. I then fired 2 pellets into each group that spun out .0007 (wall thickness variation) The.0007 pellets opened up all three groups up to a consistent 3/8 inch. To confirm the findings I shot another pellet from the original control pellets into the three existing groups and never took paper on all three.
It is my belief through testing that the skirt dameter is going to be expanded to bore size at firing no matter what size it is so I have not investigated that issue further. Perhaps someone has or will. However there are other things at hand that tests confirm alter accuracy.
Among them are pellet weight,valving, lube and pellet concentricity.
Respectfully, Frank
Good morning Paul, get on the web and pull up Lothar Walther.com Their websight will fill you in on what you need to know. Woody answers the phone himself so you won't be talking to no turkey.
I spend most of my waking time testing and retesting in the best air I can find and my offerings for what ever they are worth come out of that envirement. I offer no BS just findings.
My thoughts on the rolling of pellets:
How do you know which diameter(front or back) is giving you the info?
A change in either will give you the same affect/arc.
About 6 months ago I ran serious tests in my tube with pellets put through a die to insure skirt diameter to .0001.................it made no difference in accuracy.
Things to ponder:
About a week ago I had dead air in my building and had 3 consecutive groups in the ones setting on a 65 yd target. I then fired 2 pellets into each group that spun out .0007 (wall thickness variation) The.0007 pellets opened up all three groups up to a consistent 3/8 inch. To confirm the findings I shot another pellet from the original control pellets into the three existing groups and never took paper on all three.
It is my belief through testing that the skirt dameter is going to be expanded to bore size at firing no matter what size it is so I have not investigated that issue further. Perhaps someone has or will. However there are other things at hand that tests confirm alter accuracy.
Among them are pellet weight,valving, lube and pellet concentricity.
Respectfully, Frank
S
Simmmo
Guest
At our club we shoot a lot of targets and alot of people have tried most things but shoot great targets or better targets straight out of the tin even allowing for the obvious weight differences and skirt deformity.
The latest craze being a new airstripper thats adjustable.
Andy
S
sepeteus
Guest
We all here (in Finland) weight (at least almost all of us) and some wash and lube pellets before matches (or benchrest shooting).
But one guy shot two times 250 points with pellets (Air Arms Field .177) straight out the tin (just like Simmmo said great targets are shot).
But what is adjustable airstripper?
P
Paul Bendix
Guest
Shadowalker,
Thanks for the Lothar Walther contact. I have ordered another Christmas presant.
I do have a spare Noodle (air stripper) from James Pappas. Will try that on an airgun and see what happens.
Paul
Thanks for the Lothar Walther contact. I have ordered another Christmas presant.
I do have a spare Noodle (air stripper) from James Pappas. Will try that on an airgun and see what happens.
Paul
S
Simmmo
Guest
Some info here the new one has a means of locking it when turned rather than using spacing washers. Quicker to set up.
Andy
G
gordon gauge
Guest
Advise well taken. Have been using the Kry as it was suggested by L.D. and T.M. I have been using it only on the CP's as they are dirty and need to be rinsed. If you don't mind, I would be happy to test other lubes if you could give me a hint as to what you are testing/using. Send a PM if you are agreeable to frat w/ the enemy.
Paul, as far as I know the barrels on the Mac1 airguns are make by HW. These barrels are also used by one of the major Airgun manufacturers.
But that is second hand info - don't know for sure.....
S
shadowalker
Guest
mac 1 takedown
Paul, have you guys had one of these things completly apart?
I have had the trigger out and lightened it up a bunch. Have not fooled with valve at all or the main tube. You guys got any experience here?
I am looking at down the road problems and thought I would ask. I have 2 emails into Tim to see if he has prints or instructions but no answer in over a week.
Frank
Paul, have you guys had one of these things completly apart?
I have had the trigger out and lightened it up a bunch. Have not fooled with valve at all or the main tube. You guys got any experience here?
I am looking at down the road problems and thought I would ask. I have 2 emails into Tim to see if he has prints or instructions but no answer in over a week.
Frank
P
Paul Bendix
Guest
Frank,
I did buy several valves $10.00 and O rings from Tim. I was going to buy a generation II hammer but he said the heavier hammer was better for B/R. When I started with stock valve I could only get 800 fps out of 18.1 JSB's. Took .002 off of valve went up to 820. (pain to dump air to work on valve) Took another .002 off and was up to 840. Tim said don't take more than .005 off. I then started to clean up the swing breech. Where the two drillings came together was a hugh burr. I smoothed it out with a dremel and got 880. I then opened it up a drill size and polished the inside. I now get over 910. I am waiting on barrels now.
I did join LD Forum and reading over the old posts have learned alot. I was dumping the air each time I changed barrels.(don't have to) Any question I have asked Larry or Tim has gotten a reply in hours.
Paul
I did buy several valves $10.00 and O rings from Tim. I was going to buy a generation II hammer but he said the heavier hammer was better for B/R. When I started with stock valve I could only get 800 fps out of 18.1 JSB's. Took .002 off of valve went up to 820. (pain to dump air to work on valve) Took another .002 off and was up to 840. Tim said don't take more than .005 off. I then started to clean up the swing breech. Where the two drillings came together was a hugh burr. I smoothed it out with a dremel and got 880. I then opened it up a drill size and polished the inside. I now get over 910. I am waiting on barrels now.
I did join LD Forum and reading over the old posts have learned alot. I was dumping the air each time I changed barrels.(don't have to) Any question I have asked Larry or Tim has gotten a reply in hours.
Paul
S
shadowalker
Guest
easy way to dump air
I got small Vise Grip pliers and soldered a 1/16 deep cup on to one of the pads and ground off the excess. The cup goes over the valve and the other vise pad goes between the trigger guard and the bottom plate. I started out using a cloth to pad the bottom with but switched to a piece of form fitted plastic later. just squeeze.........Workes super!
Tell me how you altered the valve as I have not even taken mine apart.
Take a measurment and see if your swing arm air hole is in the center of the bbl. when locked over.
I made a completly new aluminum top block and set my scope to the far left as I shoot my gun straight up. My swing arm comes up to a movable cam to position it exactlly in the center of the bore. I also changed the bottom plate and screws. My top block and bottom are glued in place with only 40 inch pounds of pressure as a safety. Not the 40 foot pounds Tim advocates. We used the glue in method in benchrest for years. Gluing is the perfect bedding solution. Screws are put in only finger tight.Once dry then tighten up the screws to the inch pound setting. This takes all the load torque off the mating parts making them stress free. THIS AFFECTS BARREL VIBRATION. Seeing Tim won't answer me ask him what a standard variation IN VELOCITY on a valve should be for 10 shots.
Frank
I got small Vise Grip pliers and soldered a 1/16 deep cup on to one of the pads and ground off the excess. The cup goes over the valve and the other vise pad goes between the trigger guard and the bottom plate. I started out using a cloth to pad the bottom with but switched to a piece of form fitted plastic later. just squeeze.........Workes super!
Tell me how you altered the valve as I have not even taken mine apart.
Take a measurment and see if your swing arm air hole is in the center of the bbl. when locked over.
I made a completly new aluminum top block and set my scope to the far left as I shoot my gun straight up. My swing arm comes up to a movable cam to position it exactlly in the center of the bore. I also changed the bottom plate and screws. My top block and bottom are glued in place with only 40 inch pounds of pressure as a safety. Not the 40 foot pounds Tim advocates. We used the glue in method in benchrest for years. Gluing is the perfect bedding solution. Screws are put in only finger tight.Once dry then tighten up the screws to the inch pound setting. This takes all the load torque off the mating parts making them stress free. THIS AFFECTS BARREL VIBRATION. Seeing Tim won't answer me ask him what a standard variation IN VELOCITY on a valve should be for 10 shots.
Frank
H
hulk
Guest
Great Info
I have a USFT Hunter on order that Tim knows will be a dedicated benchrest rifle. The USFT was purpose built for FT but Tim recognizes that benchrest requires a much higher standard of accuracy. Tunnel testing, test targets showing best pellets, weight sorting, cleaning and lubing of pellets and his experience with barrel indexing is proof of his commitment to accuracy. Tim does prefer HW barrels, however, changing barrels is, reportedly, very easy. I have a LW on order with Woody and an Anschutz in reserve. My choice was .177, many like .22, Larry seems to shoot his best groups at 50 yards with 5mm.
You guys appear to be fabricating parts and I am most interested in your attempts to improve the USFT platform. Good luck.
I have a USFT Hunter on order that Tim knows will be a dedicated benchrest rifle. The USFT was purpose built for FT but Tim recognizes that benchrest requires a much higher standard of accuracy. Tunnel testing, test targets showing best pellets, weight sorting, cleaning and lubing of pellets and his experience with barrel indexing is proof of his commitment to accuracy. Tim does prefer HW barrels, however, changing barrels is, reportedly, very easy. I have a LW on order with Woody and an Anschutz in reserve. My choice was .177, many like .22, Larry seems to shoot his best groups at 50 yards with 5mm.
You guys appear to be fabricating parts and I am most interested in your attempts to improve the USFT platform. Good luck.