Scoreline

B

BobZ

Guest
Had a conversation today with Stephen George regarding Score Line.

I was informed that I misunderstood the requirement to shoot 15 targets in order to have your results tabulated. I was under the impression that if you turned in any thing more than 9 your score would be counted as you were at a major disadvantage since not having 6 more matches which could be throw out. I am pretty sure that some who turned in only 9 or 12, was because they had to miss a scheduled match or did not have time to shoot more targets. Perhaps they were shooting more than one class and Scheduled matches did not provide the opportunity to do that

Now that I know this is the rule, with which I dis-agree, I will tell our guys they must shoot 15 targets to qualify. Over the history of the game qualification has been done with 9,12, 15
Hope we do not loose any shooters.

We discussed at length that many clubs are not turning in scores to the sanctioning organization. I believe that having as many competitors listed and turning in scores would give a better image of our game, when some one finds the site, looking for air rifle competition. Seeing so few competitors they might not visit the Clubs listed. I am of the opinion that turning in sanction match scores should be a requirement, if it was advertised as a sanctioned match.

I did have one major surprise..... Steve indicated that some clubs were cherry picking( my words ), after a scheduled match was completed, to call it a club match because scores were not up to par. I was of the opinion that the 6 throw outs would level the field as to matches where wind conditions produced lower scores. I think that should not be allowed as what we would have is unlimited shooting throwing out very poor scores and then throwing out the lowest 6 of 15 turned it for record. In the case of a rifle malfunction during a match where the shooter has completed one target that the two DNF scores should still be reported and counted as targets fired. The shooter could just shoot a shot if he could get one off and throw them out anyway.

Just curious if we are all on the same page. I think the postal element of the game is secondary to the shoulder to shoulder competition as I am sure many of you do.

As Always I appreciate Stephens efforts in promoting our game. We would not be near a shoulder to shoulder US Nationals match with out him.

This is just an old mans opinion and is for clarification. The rules are the rules and we want to understand them and compete under the same rules as other clubs.
 
Bob,

It was not you who misunderstood, but Steven. I went over this with him time and time again, as did Todd Banks, and he just doesn't seem to get it.

It's too bad to. I know from experience that a Scoreline has worked great for many years in USRA IR 50/50. All they do is to take your best 12 targets out of however many you feel like shooting (during matches) making the potential overall high total of 3000-300X. Even if you shoot 30 or more targets per year, it's only your top 12 scores that are taken into consideration. Plus, it's only when you shoot a better score than your 12th worst, whether by score or by "X", that a score replaces one of the top 12. And, if you shoot less than 12 targets per year, you are still listed on the results page, only categorized by what your overall total is, whether that be for 3, 6, 9 or 12 targets, giving you some idea of how your efforts compare to everyone else who have shot the same.

And, there's another thing. To me a year/shooting season has always had 12 months. By offering at least a 10 month season for the Scoreline, if not the full 12, may seem to be giving warm weather shooters some type of advantage over us cold weather boys, but in reality it gives us northern shooters the opportunity to try our best during the dead winter, then continue submitting any better scores as the weather warms back up. Keep in mind that we can get some outstanding conditions during the coldest of months. In fact, the most pristine shooting conditions I have ever seen were one day at the range during January right after an overnight snowfall with temps in the teens. For the entire day there wasn't so much as a hint of a breeze, and the air and sky were so cold, crisp and clear it gave new meaning to the phrase "Crystal Clear". I mean, you could literally hear a car door shut, or for that matter, someone sneezing a half mile away as if they were right out in the parking lot. Unbelievably beautiful, and a day I will never forget. So, under those types of conditions you can really Rock-N-Roll, even when the thermometer is reading in the single digits.

About turning in scores for Sanctioned Matches. Let me start by saying that I paid the Pinnacle Mounatin $25.00 Sanctioning Fee for 2013 as soon as they were requested, plus forwarded along our match schedule once in place. Long story short, I submitted scores for ever single match that had been listed as being scheduled at PM on the website for 2013: ZERO. I am sorry, but when you get service like that, what's it good for? As for my posting upcoming matches and their results on the BRC, every single shot was registered and reported, along with any oddities that may have occurred, for the world to see.

I do agree that Steven has carried us a long way, and needs to be commended for his efforts. And I too feel that without his efforts we would still be back in the dark ages trying to find our way. Plus, I know that I wouldn't want to be in Steven's shoes for anything, no way, and don't think that I could have done any better. This comes down to: ​you can please some of the people some of the time……​ But, it doesn't hurt any to be affiliated with the WRABF as a guiding light, that's for sure.

Dave Shattuck
 
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Good to hear from you.

Dave Shattuck said:
Bob,

It was not you who misunderstood, but Steven. I went over this with him time and time again, as did Todd Banks, and he just doesn't seem to get it.

It's too bad to. I know from experience that a Scoreline has worked great for many years in USRA IR 50/50. All they do is to take your best 12 targets out of however many you feel like shooting (during matches) making the potential overall high total of 3000-300X. Even if you shoot 30 or more targets per year, it's only your top 12 scores that are taken into consideration. Plus, it's only when you shoot a better score than your 12th worst, whether by score or by "X", that a score replaces one of the top 12. And, if you shoot less than 12 targets per year, you are still listed on the results page, only categorized by what your overall total is, whether that be for 3, 6, 9 or 12 targets, giving you some idea of how your efforts compare to everyone else who have shot the same.

And, there's another thing. To me a year/shooting season has always had 12 months. By offering at least a 10 month season for the Scoreline, if not the full 12, may seem to be giving warm weather shooters some type of advantage over us cold weather boys, but in reality it gives us northern shooters the opportunity to try our best during the dead winter, then continue submitting any better scores as the weather warms back up. Keep in mind that we can get some outstanding conditions during the coldest of months. In fact, the most pristine shooting conditions I have ever seen were one day at the range during January right after an overnight snowfall with temps in the teens. For the entire day there wasn't so much as a hint of a breeze, and the air and sky were so cold, crisp and clear it gave new meaning to the phrase "Crystal Clear". I mean, you could literally hear a car door shut, or for that matter, someone sneezing a half mile away as if they were right out in the parking lot. Unbelievably beautiful, and a day I will never forget. So, under those types of conditions you can really Rock-N-Roll, even when the thermometer is reading in the single digits.

About turning in scores for Sanctioned Matches. Let me start by saying that I paid the Pinnacle Mounatin $25.00 Sanctioning Fee for 2013 as soon as they were requested, plus forwarded along our match schedule once in place. Long story short, I submitted scores for ever single match that had been listed as being scheduled at PM on the website for 2013: ZERO. I am sorry, but when you get service like that, what's it good for? As for my posting upcoming matches and their results on the BRC, every single shot was registered and reported, along with any oddities that may have occurred, for the world to see.

I do agree that Stephen has carried us a long way, and needs to be commended for his efforts. And I too feel that without his efforts we would still be back in the dark ages trying to find our way. Plus, I know that I wouldn't want to be in Steven's shoes for anything, no way, and don't think that I could have done any better. This comes down to: ​you can please some of the people some of the time……​ But, it doesn't hurt any to be affiliated with the WRABF as a guiding light, that's for sure.

Dave Shattuck
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Dave,

If there is any confusion over qualifying for the score line with any 9, 12, or 15 targets. I have to accept some responsibility as to a misunderstanding with Stephen, when we went from unlimited scores counting only 9 to the so called best 9 of 15. Turning in fewer than 15 is an extreme disadvantage as you can not throw out 6 terrible score. Since we have the opportunity to shoot more matches with a dedicated air rifle range and some old farts, I made the suggestion that once a shooter had completed 15 targets in say HV. He could start a second match of 15 targets that had nothing to do with those still shooting the first 15. I think that there was misunderstanding and Stephen implemented, that you had to shoot 15 to have your scores tabulated and ranked.

My intention was to first complete 15 targets before starting a second Scoreline Match. It was never my suggestion that those turning in 9, or 12 would be considered not qualified when they had
met the minimum of 9.

I am under the opinion that the boss has the option to allow participation with 9,12, or 15 targets and correct the last half scores. I am totally against a club shooting a match and after scores or tabulated deciding not to report them. If a club wants to shoot a practice or non sanctioned match that should be established before the first shot is fired. There is absolutely no reason to post scores if what we have is un-limited throw outs before you pick 15 targets and throw out six.

We can only hope for the best result for all of the clubs.

I love this game and I hope to meet lots of folks at the Nationals.


Bob
 
I first read the Scoreline rules when I stumbled across my name on the list. Read them many times since and they still seem odd to me. Glad to know it's not just me.

First thing, why two 6 month periods rather than a 1 year period? Are the two averaged at the end of the year for an overall ranking?

Second, why track multiple aggs for the same shooter in the same class? Why not just one agg for each shooter in each class, submit as many targets as you like and the top 9 are totaled towards the agg. What good does it do for a shooter to beat himself? Seems it would be far easier to track and tally if each shooter submited his first 9 targets and then submit only those that score higher than the lowest score of the first 9. I don't see the need to have to submit 15 when only 9 are counted.

Third, do targets have to be submitted as a complete match (75 shots) or just by cards of 25 shots?

What Dave outlines is to me is more sensible and easier. The current format seems more of a Postal Match run twice a year. Fluffing the numbers to fill space on the Web Page is wasted space and effort in my opinion as I don't see that it accomplishs anything. Granted, it's not my space and effort. I'm not critisizing, just trying to understand why things are done the way they are.

Maybe I have the whole concept wrong, so any info, history or explanation would be helpful.
 
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Months away from a National Championship

I took just a minute to count the success of our efforts to get people to see our numbers and to indicate we have a serious and very competitive game.

My count was approx. 15 shooters completed the 15 target postal competition. Of the 15 several were counted more than once since they fired more than one class.
Several of the top score for some reason did not have a shooters name.

Some one searching for air rifle competition would not be impressed.

We need to step up the number of shooters and encourage all of the clubs to send in the scores. If a MD post on a forum a copy and paste and email to Stephen will do the trick.

As to one year of shooting..... With weather conditions Stephen has separated the competition which will be largely indoors for a number of clubs. I think that makes sense.

Some clubs are happy with one 15 target score line match each half. Others can shoot all year long and would like to shoot multiple 15 target matches.

Agree that shoulder to shoulder growth is a goal by bringing in small groups of air rifle shooters together in postal matches.



Addressing members of Sanctioned clubs.

In favor of two separate seasons (half year) what we have now.

In favor of shooters being able to shoot a second 15 target score line not to mixed with people on their first 15 target. (this is what we have now)

Allow shooters to qualify in the competition if they turn in 9, 12, or 15 targets in 3 target matches in each class.

Require that at the start of a competition that everyone knows it is a practice shoot, Club Match or Score Line.

All Sanctioned matches, Score Line Scores must be reported to USABR.

Increase the numbers of reported competitors from last half year by reporting 9,12,0r 15 targets (this could nearly double the most recent numbers).

Sound off guys! Lets grow the sport.
 
There are a number of things I would like to see changed:

First of all, the match format. I would like to be able to shoot in more then one class at a match. Why have several different class guns if one can't use them? I would prefer a Sporter, 10.5lb and 13.5lb format for a 3 gun agg at each match and an Unlimited 3 gun agg at an Unlimited match with anything allowed in the Unlimited class. The three gun and unlimited could be run on the same match day but separate form each other. In case anyone doesn't know, this is the way some of the Rimfire orgs run their matches. I just don't see the point of having several different rifles and having to decide which class to shoot in on a match day. Why not use them all?

Regarding the Scoreline: I think indoor and outdoor should be separate and a 7 best target base line be established. Some of us live a long, long way from registered matches so being able to get to enough matches to shoot 15 record cards is probably not possible. The number of cards doesn't matter so much in my view but the opportunity for more people to be able to at least qualify does matter to me. I think we could encourage some other folks out there who might be looking at what we are doing, who may be involved in another discipline. In that case, a lesser number may encourage them to come join in. I am often asked questions about Air Rifle Benchrest by shooters in the Rimfire world. Some like the idea of the lesser cost ammo and like the idea of the Air Rifle 's use but they are waiting to see if this "Takes". In my view, if we could find what would get them to a match to try it, we might get a bunch more shooters and clubs involved.

Something has to happen to get more venues up and running. Build it and they MAY come. There are folks out there watching.
 
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First, let me go along with Pete. I totally agree with running matches having a 2 (one Sporter and two Heavy Class guns being used) or 3 different Classes (LV, HV and Open) with any lighter gun qualifying to be used for a heavier Class.
As for the Scoreline, why mess things up by offering a "Winter" Scoreline (League), and then a "Summer" Scoreline (League)? I do agree with offering the 2 different Scorelines, one for Indoor and one for Outdoor, as is currently being. But I have already made my feeling known about the Scoreline, so I'll let that one go.

Now, in response to Bob's questions:

In favor of two separate seasons (half year) what we have now.
No! As previously stated I think one full year with an unlimited number of targets being accepted is definitely the way to go.

In favor of shooters being able to shoot a second 15 target score line not to mixed with people on their first 15 target. (this is what we have now)
No, but only because of what I have said before. And, to me what we are now doing is on the verge of being ridiculous, especially since there have been no shooters achieving closer than 18 points away from shooting a perfect session. Let them continue to try and achieve that illusive 2250-225X score by letting them continue to submit scores for an entire year.

Allow shooters to qualify in the competition if they turn in 9, 12, or 15 targets in 3 target matches in each class.
Yes, but only under the above criterior: for a 12 month Season.

Require that at the start of a competition that everyone knows it is a practice shoot, Club Match or Score Line.
ABSOLUTELY! And, when a scheduled upcoming event is posted on any of the forums, it also has to be made perfectly clear at that time what the match is for so shooters who are traveling in from afar know exactly what's in front of them before they get there. None of this expecting to be shooting in a Sanctioned/Scoreline MATCH only to arrive and find out after the fact it's suddenly being considered a practice or club match due to the low scores, or for any other reason.
For 18 years whenever I've run a matches everyone knows exactly what to expect as soon as the announcement is made about the match. For example: on days when we're shooting in the BIPM matches sometimes we'll be shooting a total of 6 cards for the day. This is not only announced on the forum as being such, but also, before a participant is even assigned a bench they have to identify which 3 targets (the first 3 or the second 3) they'll be submission for the Postal upon sign-in, and are labeled as such on the score sheet at that time.

All Sanctioned matches, Score Line Scores must be reported to USABR.
I agree. Even though I may have misunderstood the process in the past, it won't happen in the future.

Increase the numbers of reported competitors from last half year by reporting 9,12,0r 15 targets (this could nearly double the most recent numbers).
I don't see how? If a competitor shoots a single target or 100 targets, it's still only one competitor who shot them during that Calendar Year? By providing any information any other way would only be fluffing the numbers.

Just as a So you Know: I'm not sure if there will be any sanctioned matches shot anywhere in the Northeast this year other than for the Holbrook Indoor matches. I have been informed that Salem, NY won't be offering any due to the lack of participation vs the justification for closing down the range, Holbrook can't shoot Outdoors any long due to the Club not allowing the closing of any part of the Outdoor range for a group of our size, as Pete stated, he doesn't get enough participation to justify holding matches, and I am now facing some several health issues that will limit my abilities to set up and run any more matches. So, I guess whatever I have said here doesn't amount to much more than for speaking from experience. In other words, a hill of beans.

That's it for now.

Dave Shattuck
 
7 or 9 minimum to qualify for tabulation.

Pete Wass said:
First of all, the match format. I would like to be able to shoot in more then one class at a match. Why have several different class guns if one can't use them? I would prefer a Sporter, 10.5lb and 13.5lb format for a 3 gun agg at each match and an Unlimited 3 gun agg at an Unlimited match with anything allowed in the Unlimited class. The three gun and unlimited could be run on the same match day but separate form each other. In case anyone doesn't know, this is the way some of the Rimfire orgs run their matches. I just don't see the point of having several different rifles and having to decide which class to shoot in on a match day. Why not use them all?

Regarding the Scoreline: I think indoor and outdoor should be separate and a 7 best target base line be established. Some of us live a long, long way from registered matches so being able to get to enough matches to shoot 15 record cards is probably not possible. The number of cards doesn't matter so much in my view but the opportunity for more people to be able to at least qualify does matter to me. I think we could encourage some other folks out there who might be looking at what we are doing, who may be involved in another discipline. In that case, a lesser number may encourage them to come join in. I am often asked questions about Air Rifle Benchrest by shooters in the Rimfire world. Some like the idea of the lesser cost ammo and like the idea of the Air Rifle 's use but they are waiting to see if this "Takes". In my view, if we could find what would get them to a match to try it, we might get a bunch more shooters and clubs involved.

Something has to happen to get more venues up and running. Build it and they MAY come. There are folks out there watching.
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Pete,

Thanks for posting. Your idea of a 3 gun match. I would like to do that as well. I could do that with LV, HV, Open. or with several other combinations. I shoot my open gun in un-limited.
Jimmy martin shoots one gun in 3 classes. I think that not many have three or four air rifles as I do. At one time or another I have turned in scores in every class offered. We did our best in Houston to get the production class going, I used a Pnuema. The cheapest PCP out there.

As to best 7 of 15......I think that 9 is good for most, since a Match consist of 3 targets. I suppose some might like a 6 of 9 and shoot as many of those as the serious folks could do.

My goal is to get Stephen to count those that fired 9 targets this past season to be recognized as competing. This by itself would more than double the number of competitors being counted.
We have in the past counted all of those who fired 9 targets. The goal is not to get people to shoot 15 targets but to get them to shoot at all. If they are willing to be at an extreme handicap with only 9 or 12 with fewer or no throw outs they are competing. I can not understand why we would not allow that.

Just a question for you as I know that you came to air guns after shooting bench rest for a long time. In my opinion, as shooters like your self consider which class to start with, if they are going to invest in a competitive high dollar air rifle. It would be OPEN, though I know that is not where you started as there was more competition in other classes. The experienced bench competitor is not and off the shelf kind of guy and wants to tinker and test and improve his equipment to get extreme accuracy. I do not believe they will accept the artificial limits of LV and HV.
LV by a stupid law in Europe and HV with a limit originally set for Field Target and silhouette for target damage. Who knows if 23 or 29 or 35 ft. lbs. will be the best. I think that most bench rest shooters will want to find that out in competition and the open class will suit them best. The vast majority of PCP air rifles in the US are over 20 ft. lbs.

I hope we can get more shooters who want to grow the game to post and discuss of the best way to do that. If you have 3 rifles and one friend and two benches you do not have to drive very far to shoot more. The Postal matches will let clubs start small and grow the shoulder to shoulder competition.

Bob Zimmerman
 
BobZ said:
Pete,

Thanks for posting. Your idea of a 3 gun match. I would like to do that as well. I could do that with LV, HV, Open. or with several other combinations. I shoot my open gun in un-limited.
Jimmy martin shoots one gun in 3 classes. I think that not many have three or four air rifles as I do. At one time or another I have turned in scores in every class offered. We did our best in Houston to get the production class going, I used a Pnuema. The cheapest PCP out there.

As to best 7 of 15......I think that 9 is good for most, since a Match consist of 3 targets. I suppose some might like a 6 of 9 and shoot as many of those as the serious folks could do.

My goal is to get Stephen to count those that fired 9 targets this past season to be recognized as competing. This by itself would more than double the number of competitors being counted.
We have in the past counted all of those who fired 9 targets. The goal is not to get people to shoot 15 targets but to get them to shoot at all. If they are willing to be at an extreme handicap with only 9 or 12 with fewer or no throw outs they are competing. I can not understand why we would not allow that.

Just a question for you as I know that you came to air guns after shooting bench rest for a long time. In my opinion, as shooters like your self consider which class to start with, if they are going to invest in a competitive high dollar air rifle. It would be OPEN, though I know that is not where you started as there was more competition in other classes. The experienced bench competitor is not and off the shelf kind of guy and wants to tinker and test and improve his equipment to get extreme accuracy. I do not believe they will accept the artificial limits of LV and HV.
LV by a stupid law in Europe and HV with a limit originally set for Field Target and silhouette for target damage. Who knows if 23 or 29 or 35 ft. lbs. will be the best. I think that most bench rest shooters will want to find that out in competition and the open class will suit them best. The vast majority of PCP air rifles in the US are over 20 ft. lbs.

I hope we can get more shooters who want to grow the game to post and discuss of the best way to do that. If you have 3 rifles and one friend and two benches you do not have to drive very far to shoot more. The Postal matches will let clubs start small and grow the shoulder to shoulder competition.

Bob Zimmerman
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As you ay know, most people who shoot the "Class based Rimfire Rifles" use a 10.5 lb rifle for 10.5, 13.5 and Unlimited. Some other orgs are Unlimited Only. For we who have invested heavily in 10.5 lb rifles, I don't see Unlimited or Heavy only as a viable option. Who is going to buy all those 10.5, 12 fp rifles if everything goes to Heavy or Unlimited? I don't really need a 2K Squirrel getter when my $500 CZ does the job nicely. I think we need to use what we have currently.
 
Good Discussion

We have some input, some agreement. There are only two things I would like to see changed.

#1 Seems there is some agreement that not reporting scores scheduled as a scoreline match after targets are fired, should stop. Cherry picking of scores allows for a distorted view of results and would allow a club to basically shoot unlimited matches and report the best 15 and then throw out the worst 6 of those.

I would think a couple of things could happen The club can stop doing it and advise Stephen. We could be informed of clubs using this practice, so we could at least look at their scores in a different light. If neither happens then the only way to compare scores would be for everyone to Cherry Pick reported scores. (Sad but true).

#2 go back to what is important ( allow competitors to turn in 9,12,15 targets counting the best 9) to allow those who want to shoot more than one class at a limited number of matches to so, show more activity on the U.S.B.R web site. Postal competition and lots of scores reported will grow the shoulder to shoulder game.

Every thing else seems OK with me. Stephen has done a great job with rules and he considers our input.

Perhaps we can have a face to face with Stephen in May, at the Nationals, with more ideas after polling our club members, for now the rules are what they are and we can only offer input for the boss to consider.

Thanks for your comments.

Bob Zimmerman
 
A Few Suggestions-

I pretty much agree with everything Dave said, probably because he's been shooting Rimfire BR since about 1992 and I have since 2003. We're both used to being able to shoot as many targets as we're able to travel for. I used to travel A LOT, shooting 180+ targets a year in one organization and about 100 targets in another. Both organizations have a scoreline that consists of your twelve best targets. Heck, I even joined two clubs and built ranges at both so I could shoot more targets. I was chasing one thing, a perfect 3000 scoreline. Even with hundreds of shooters shooting dozens of targets each, only a handful reached the 3000 mark each year. The most I can remember was 12 and most years it was fewer. It would be even tougher with Air Rifles.

Limiting the number of targets encourages people to shoot their 15 targets at their home range where they've got an advantage and not bother traveling. It's also a turnoff for experienced RF and CF guys looking for a new game with ammo prices soaring through the roof and availability going in the opposite direction. AND, it encourages cherry picking.

The 3-gun suggestion is a good one. If you look on the USARB website's archives for 2012, you'll see that it's been done. As Pete said, we've got the guns, it's a shame to have to choose which one to leave home on match day. Again, Dave, Pete, Paul Bendix and I have shot this format in RF for years, usually with a 3 target 3-gun match in the AM followed by an UL match in the afternoon. With Air Rifle, a shooter could shoot his 3-gun match in the AM, then use whichever of the 3 he/she liked for Scoreline in the PM.

There needs to be a schedule of regular matches posted for every club on the website, and only scores from those posted matches counted towards the Scoreline. I hope the shooter that told me recently that Steve had told him it was fine to shoot his tethered LV rifle in his backyard and turn in scores was just yanking my chain....

As Dave mentioned, next year is up in the air at Salem. I enjoy hosting matches, always have, but I'm the only active AG BR shooter at my club and the next closest shooter is 120+ miles away. I'll probably pay my sanctioning fee one more time and post a schedule, including the NorthEast Regional, just to keep outdoor competition alive in the NorthEast, but we really need to figure out how to attact more shooters.....
Todd
 
I feel that 15 cards is to many for a 6 month period. Would like to see 12 card possibly 9 card scores. I brought this up last year but to no avail. Would also like to see a full year instead of a split season, reason being I don't see any problems with the guys who shoot in the colder climates reaching the limit before their season changes to the worse. A lot of you folks have your act together.

We run 3 cards here, if anyone wants to shoot another class they are allowed, but it's not very often someone does. With folks saying that those in warmer weather have an advantage probably but I also hear folks say I wish we had a place to shoot indoors.

Last year I wanted to test a couple of my rifles so I set up indoors in the house from the living room to the laundry room 25m. I won't tell you what I shot, you wouldn't believe it.

I also get a feeling that there is a rivalry between the east and west and between different clubs, believe me when I say there is none here, we are all in this together if this game is going to work.

Regards,
Joe
 
Todd,

I am so glad to hear that you are still planning to host matches, especially the N.E. Regionals. I know that Big Show can be bit more challenging while at the same time being a money looser for the Club and have no problem with throwing extra into the kitty. I'm just afraid you still won't get enough to cover your expenses. Last year I know you ended up a bit lighter because of what you charged trying to help draw in more shooters, but what good did that do? I for one would expect to pay at least $25.00 / Class at a Big Match, and I don't think anyone else feels any differently considering you are providing at least 3 meals, 4 Classes of trophies, along with door prizes. The way I look at it is: if Holbrook (66 miles each way) can't run Outdoor matches, and you go away (135 mile drive each way), and Pete (177 miles up and back) doesn't host any, other than for Pinnacle Mountain being the only range in New England, the next closest range shooting Outdoors Airgun Benchrest is a ±1000 mile drive (KY) to get to.

Joe,

The only way I see any type of East/West rivalry going on is when comparing how we're holding our end up when compared to the rest. It's too bad you can't find a place to shoot Indoors as I'm sure we'd all love to see what those scores would be like. 750-70X? And, the one time you set up to shoot in your home, I sure do hope you warned Momma about what was going on in her living room. How about in one of your tractor sheds, or storage buildings - like setting up to shoot between the rows of Avacado boxes maybe? Could you squeek out 25Y there?

Believe me, all of us who are into this game would do anything to see this sport grow. In fact, Paul Bendix like you will not only bring extra guns and rest for others to use, but has also sat out several matches in order to let others "share" his equipment (funny word that share can be).

And, as I said earlier, I'm in favor of the whole year thing along with only considering the 12 best from all the submitted targets with no limit on the number of targets that can be submitted.

Your East Coast Friend,

Dave Shattuck
 
Joe,

The only way I see any type of East/West rivalry going on is when comparing how we're holding our end up when compared to the rest. It's too bad you can't find a place to shoot Indoors as I'm sure we'd all love to see what those scores would be like. 750-70X? And, the one time you set up to shoot in your home, I sure do hope you warned Momma about what was going on in her living room. How about in one of your tractor sheds, or storage buildings - like setting up to shoot between the rows of Avacado boxes maybe? Could you squeek out 25Y there?

Believe me, all of us who are into this game would do anything to see this sport grow. In fact, Paul Bendix like you will not only bring extra guns and rest for others to use, but has also sat out several matches in order to let others "share" his equipment (funny word that share can be).

And, as I said earlier, I'm in favor of the whole year thing along with only considering the 12 best from all the submitted targets with no limit on the number of targets that can be submitted.

Your East Coast Friend,

Dave Shattuck[/QUOTE]

Dave,
You are correct about the rivalry, I assumed it went a little deeper than that. It's all good.

Made sure Momma was gone with my sister before I shot. With her being 96 she didn't notice the setup in the living room, good thing. Good guess on that total, off by one X+. The equipment buildings aren't big enough plus they are full. The one thing I thought about is having some night matches during our winter and classify the scores to the indoor part of the season, but that won't work either, most of our support comes from shooters outside the immediate area and that's a good haul for some.

Whatever decision Steve makes with the scoreline, we will support.

Your West Coast Friend,:cool:
Joe
 
Todd, Dave, others who have shown an interest in me.

I plan on making Todd's N E regional my 1st BR shoot.

I hope just one more warm body and fees is at least a plus.

When the date is set, I will start making concrete plans. I will be looking for advice on where to stay etc.
I plan on making at least a wk of it.

Dave, to my surprise, you said that there is a place in KY that shoots AGBR. I'd really like to have any pertinent info you can pass on.
I'm in Central IN.

Later,
Dwight
 
Dwight,

Go to the Home Page of this forum (above left), punch up the symble for the USAARBR, then go to CLUBS and there you will find the info on the club in KY as well as the rest of us. But, now I see Steve has already given you all you need to know. Thanks Steve.

Dave
 
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Steve, Dave, thanks.

I searched all the options I could find relative to Buck Creek Gun Club. I'm not very adept on line, and afraid I lose patience quickly.

Only mention I could find of AGBR was the neg. post on 5-1-13 by jam-nut, which I disregarded because of the following positive responses from others, and comments from George Coleman.

Around the 1st of April, I will call George Coleman myself about BR matches that are open to Air Rifles.
They should have their schedule set by then.

Any personal feedback from any of you guys who plan to shoot there in the 2014 season would be more than welcome.

My e-mail : dwight@mcallis.com

Later,
Dwight
 
Possible combnation of suggestions for scoreline

Perhaps the previous posters could tweak the suggestion below to take ideas for improvement and combine them with the desire to shoot as many matches as range time allows.

Some wanted unlimited targets Counting nine

Some wanted fewer than 15 max. for Seasonal Score Line match.

Some would like more of an opportunity to shoot multiple classes.

Some wanted a Three gun Class perhaps called Combined.


Only if we continue to discuss can anyone hope for a change that is best for the future of the game and to be adopted by the management.


To the Positive......

I think that all of the posters would like to have as many opportunities to shoot as range time permits. Some wanted to allow unlimited targets so that some one with throw outs might achieve 9 250's. Joe and others wanted 9 target matches to allow for more match combinations for various reasons. A desire for a Three gun class was expressed.


A suggestion that I think would meet the goals as I understood them, could be to shoot 9 target matches. as Joe suggested and counting the best six of nine, scores would be tabulated for the high scores. After completing first nine a club could continue, as we do now with a second third or fourth 9 target match. At the end of the season the best 9 targets would be counted of all the scores turned in for the multiple 9 shot matches, for overall high scores for the full year or for the half season. Each 9 target Match is separate event with a final combined aggregate. This of course would allow competitors to shoot multiple classes and give a long run of matches to go for the gold of three 750 scores. The Three gun class could be accomplished if the competitor shot one target with each of three classes for the combined match. The combined or Three gun would be treated as just another class. I can only see a possibility of HV, LV, Open as a HV gun could be used in Open as well as a LV gun in HV or Open. A sporter rifle could also be used in Open without the limit of scope power and the limit of knob use on the rest.

Hoping for more input and suggestions. Remember that we need a good majority of agreement for any changes, before the management will consider them.

Again I can be happy with the current rules of best 9 of 15 if no throw outs are allowed before targets are submitted are allowed.

Lets talk with positive comments. We can get there from here..........

Bob Z
 
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Even though I don't get it, we are working on the 4th version of the rules, here is a proposal as a compromise.

The Outdoor Season:

For outdoor scores and runs January 1 through October 31.
Rifle classes will be LV, HV and USA Open.
12 targets to qualify and a best 9 of 12 format.
Each additional 12 targets will be included in the same best 9 of 12 format.
Shooters with more than one aggregate will use their best score.

3 Gun, LV, HV, and USA Open events at the match director's discretion.
Match directors will announce prior to the event of USA Scoreline eligibility.
Shooters may opt out prior to the event and will not have those scores considered.

The Indoor Season:

For indoor scores and runs November 1 through April 30.
Rifle classes will be LV, HV and USA Open.
12 targets to qualify and a best 9 of 12 format.
Each additional 12 targets will be included in the same best 9 of 12 format.
Shooters with more than one aggregate will use their best score.

3 Gun, LV, HV, and USA Open events at the match director's discretion.
Match directors will announce prior to the event of USA Scoreline eligibility.
Shooters may opt out prior to the event and will not have those scores considered.

Still not perfect but should hit the high points for most.
 
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