Scoreline

Pproposed Score Line Rules

Stephen,

I think your proposal seems to address most of the wishes of posters on this forum. The Houston Group will be on board with what ever set of rules will be put in place.

One question with the Indoor and Outdoor Seasons. Does that mean that the sunshine states will still be able to compete all year long in both seasons with Outdoor matches during the Indoor Season as it is now. I believe that even during winter months there are still some clubs that described the opportunity for a match or two Outdoors in the colder areas.

We are lucky enough to have only so called cold spells with weather below our comfort zone of 50 degrees. Since we may have other clubs joining from warmer areas we would favor the ability to shoot all year if we brave the weather.

We are searching for a commercial range to shoot indoors.

We are on board with what ever rules are put in place.
 
Bob,

The new rules, as proposed, do have some overlap of the dates. Some might say it favors those north of the Mason-Dixon line as they can seamless transition from outdoors to indoors. On the other hand, it gives us warm weather shooters some time off during the holidays.

Hopefully, the rules make sense to everyone.
 
Wilbur,

As was explained to me, it was so shooters would have targets to throw out, in that way, they were less likely to "cherry pick" their scores.
 
Steven,

I think that somehow you have been missing the point.

No matter what number of targets you want to use for your Scoreine, whether it be the best 9, 12, 15 or however many is not important, it's the imposing of limits as to the total number of targets that can be submitted for consideration to establish that Scoreline that's crazy. The way you're now doing it, by using best 9 out of 15 submitted targets, can do nothing but help to encourage, to use your phrase, "Cherry Picking".

A shooter should be able to submit and have recorded their first 1 through 9 targets as they are submitted.

After the first 9 targets have bee submitted you would throw out any and all lower score targets, whether already listed or just being submitted, and replace them with the higher targets while maintaining the list of that shooters best 9 scores, and thus maintaining the highest possible 9-Target Aggregate Score for that competitor.

There should be no limit to the total number of targets a competitor can submit during any period! That way it would only encourage each shooter to shoot as much as possible while submitting all scores in order to help better their standings.

And, as to this starting a new Scoreline for the same competitor during the same time period once they have satisfied whatever the total number of targets allowed is, I think it's now 15: WHY BOTHER? If a shooter shoots that much one of three things will happen:
They will either not shoot as well and end up below where they already are during their first go-round
They will equal their previous score and end up stay right where they were the first time
or
They will better their first attempt and improve their standings.

Well, guess what? By doing what I have been proposing would end up with the exact same results, only with a lot less clutter. Plus, by only letting a competitor have one Scoreline running per period doesn't inflate the numbers like your method. Oh sure, it may look like there are more people participating, when in reality it's all nothing more than a bunch of smoke-and-mirrors.

And, as for this "Cherry Picking"? What would be the sense if all your scores are being taken into consideration with only the better ones going toward your standings.

I'll try to mind my own business now, but don't count on it.

Dave Shattuck
 
Dave,

How right you are. Missing the point has become my specialty.

So, as I understand your thinking, someone shoots 9 targets, therefore, has an aggregate. From that point on, for the next 10 months, there is no point in turning in a target, unless it is better than one of those first 9? This sounds like the definition of "cherry picking". It would eliminate all the other useless scores from cluttering things up, no more smoke and mirrors.

How about putting a set of simple, easy to understand rules together and we can discuss them.
 
Steve,
You could always give Wilbur or Craig Young a call if you're still confused as to why they have scorelines with virtually unlimited number of targets allowed in IR50/50 and RBA...Benchrest is benchrest, doesn't matter whether it's rimfire or air rifle. There are models out there that work. You keep trying to reinvent the wheel for some reason that some of us just can't understand.
Todd
 
Todd,

"Benchrest is benchrest,". As much as I would like to agree with you, I can't. The term I hear frequently is "casual benchrest shooter" when discussing air rifle benchrest. Happens only occasionally with the rimfire crowd and almost never with the centerfire guys. We need more shooters, clubs, match directors, gunsmiths and,........... you get the drift.

You are right about successful models that exist but it is hard to follow that path without everything else being in place. What we need is some consistent growth. The "catch 22" is that getting crossover from other disciplines will be a challenge during a time when air rifle benchrest is trying to grow and looks different.

I have spoken to Craig. He is concerned about the future of RBA. Nothing like a scoreline on their website, lots of club scores, more of Dave's "smoke and mirrors".

The IR50/50 web site has scoreline scores, looks like groups of 7, along with much more, a healthy situation.

ARA would be another successful model but no scoreline. They went with an A-line and an Agg-line, along with the math that goes with both.

I do not want to "reinvent the wheel". This is why following the framework of the WRABF is the cornerstone of our rules. Please try to understand, missing the point and having a different opinion are not the same thing.

Put together a set of simple, easy to understand rules and we will discuss them.
 
Steve,
You obviously didn't click on any of the names on the IR50/50 scoreline. The "groups of 7" you mentioned are the top 7 scores of an unlimited number of targets shot in each individual class. Here's a link to a familiar name's list of targets shot to achieve his 3000 agg on the UL scoreline- http://www.ir5050.com/scorelinedetail?name=Paul Bendix. As you can see, Paul attended a lot of matches and turned in every single target he shot. Even after reaching twelve 250's, you keep shooting hoping to better your X count and thereby move up the scoreline. I have NEVER observed a rimfire shooter attend a match and not turn in his or her scores. It's simply not done. If you pay a match fee, your scores go in, period. If you have a bad day, oh well. You'll do better next time and there is absolutely no reason to not turn in your crappy scores.

"The "catch 22" is that getting crossover from other disciplines will be a challenge during a time when air rifle benchrest is trying to grow and looks different."

Think about that one. Maybe if it didn't look so different, some of them might give it a try.

Todd
 
What Dave outlined seems simple and is easily understood by me.

There can be no "Cherry Picking" when unlimited targets can be submitted and only the top 9, 12, 15 scores count. A shooter could turn in all 100 targets he shot, another could shoot 100 targets and only turn in his best 9, 12 or 15 the results will not be affected. It's a best of, only the "Cherries" are being counted. What does it matter who picks the Cherries? The Sanctioning Body or the Shooter, it can't affect the outcome.

On the otherhand, if the number of targets that can be submitted is restricted to 9, 12 or 15 the stage is set for "Cherry Picking". Then it becomes advantagous to a shooter to only turn in the Cherries, as he can only submit 9, 12 or 15 and the easy way to improve his score on paper is to only turn in his best scores.

Not following a standard benchrest formula is going to do nothing but slow and limit AG BR growth. Some Score Line Gimmick is not going to bring in in any new non BR shooters into the AG game, but will keep current BR shooters out.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Pardini

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.


Todd,

How many scores was it that Paul "Cherry Picked"? SEVENTY-FIVE? Gee, I can't help but wonder what his other non-preferential scores looked like, you know, the ones he was too embarrassed to submit.

Oh, and by the way, it's not the shooter who submits his or her scores. It's the Match Director.


Dave
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Todd, Pardini, Dave

As I said, "but it is hard to follow that path without everything else being in place."

Without more shooters, clubs, match directors and the like, it will be next to impossible to duplicate the IR50/50 model. Very few will have the opportunity to match Paul's target total. Those that can will have a distinct advantage, then you throw fair and equitable out the window.

However, we can try this format and see how successful it can be.

Again, who is going to step up and put down some simple, easy to understand rules?
 
Steve,

I'll volunteer.

Over the next couple of weeks I'll work on putting together a new set of Scoreline Rules that are clear, simple and concise, yet cover all the necessary bases, then will run them by Todd to get his opinion. After that I'll send them along to you for your consideration, and so you can gather others thoughts. I would start on them now, but we had company (my know-it-all brother) arrive from England yesterday so won't be able to do much with this before the middle of next week at earliest.

Dave
 
Dave - saving you some time.....KIS principle

Please note that I purposely omitted the last "S" in "KISS"

_________________________________

The total of the highest xx individual targets shot at any sanctioned (put class here) match between January 1 through December 31. Tiebreaker: The highest single score shot. If a tie still exists, the next highest score will be used and so on.

__________________________________

What else could there possibly be short of separating indoor and outdoor? Do it like BR50 did - let everybody calculate their own scoreline but keep the scores where all can see and dispute a miscalculation. Couldn't be easier!!

If you have sanctioned matches where the scores are not reported, fix that first - then worry about scorelines. NEVER EVER set up a program such that a competitor's standing/score can be diminished by attending a match.
 
Wilbur,

After that, all I can say is: Enough said!

Dave
 
I wanted to thank all those that provided input to the new USA Scoreline rules.

They are posted on the web site.

Lastly, we are inviting any international shooters that are interested to participate. This would include any Field Target shooters that want to test their equipment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top