Savage #12 F/TR 308 Reloading Question

M

MVW

Guest
Gents, I am new to this forum. I don't see a specific loaction for reloading questions, so I have posted here. I have been fighting with getting consistent reloads for this gun (Savage #12, F/TR) for a while. Probably not the gun, but one never knows. I am getting Standard Deviations of ~10 and Extreme Spreads of 20-30, which I suspect could be greatly improved on. Not looking for any specific velocity just consistency and hoping that someone can spot something obvious that I am doing wrong.

Data - I have lots of data.

New Lapua Brass, full length-sized and trimmed to 2.005". Deburred inside and out. Neck turned to 0.0135 +/- about 0.0001 - sometimes less. Cleaned up the primer pockets. Brass is sorted by weight (but not volume). I have also done this with Lapua brass that has been fired multiple times and get about the same results.

I neck size with a Redding bushing die and rezise about 1/2 of the neck using a 0.335 bushing (also 0.334).

I have an milligram scale and using 43.00 +/- .02 GN Varget (I have varied this in the past).

I am using 175 GN Sierra HPBT's and I weigh them again to =/- .02 GN. I also check the bearing surface to make sure they are the same.

I am using CCI BR-2 primers and yes I weight those also.

I am using Redding Comp seating die and seating 0.02" off the lands (I have varied this in the past).

For new brass I can't imagine annealing would help, but it seems like neck tension must be the issue. I was thinking of getting a K&M Arbor press that measures seating force, but before I spend anymore $$ I thought I see if others have recommendations.

Thanks, Mike
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would try a powder with a slower burn rate. Probably in the range of RE-15 to 4350. It sounds like your reloading technique is ok from what you have described.
Sierra lists Varget @ 41.7 as a max load for a 308 Win with their 175. So if you want to stick with the Varget, I'd back the load off to about 40.0 grains which should give you about 2400 fps.
 
MVW said:
Gents, I am new to this forum. I don't see a specific loaction for reloading questions, so I have posted here. I have been fighting with getting consistent reloads for this gun (Savage #12, F/TR) for a while. Probably not the gun, but one never knows. I am getting Standard Deviations of ~10 and Extreme Spreads of 20-30, which I suspect could be greatly improved on. Not looking for any specific velocity just consistency and hoping that someone can spot something obvious that I am doing wrong.

Data - I have lots of data.

New Lapua Brass, full length-sized and trimmed to 2.005". Deburred inside and out. Neck turned to 0.0135 +/- about 0.0001 - sometimes less. Cleaned up the primer pockets. Brass is sorted by weight (but not volume). I have also done this with Lapua brass that has been fired multiple times and get about the same results.

I neck size with a Redding bushing die and rezise about 1/2 of the neck using a 0.335 bushing (also 0.334).

I have an milligram scale and using 43.00 +/- .02 GN Varget (I have varied this in the past).

I am using 175 GN Sierra HPBT's and I weigh them again to =/- .02 GN. I also check the bearing surface to make sure they are the same.

I am using CCI BR-2 primers and yes I weight those also.

I am using Redding Comp seating die and seating 0.02" off the lands (I have varied this in the past).

For new brass I can't imagine annealing would help, but it seems like neck tension must be the issue. I was thinking of getting a K&M Arbor press that measures seating force, but before I spend anymore $$ I thought I see if others have recommendations.

Thanks, Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

Why not start off by looking at what successful F/TR shooters are doing? If you look a the GB F Class website at www.gbfclass.co.uk you will see a couple of Top Ten equipment lists - for the Europeans and the GB League. You'll find which bullets and brass, powder, primers etc are used by the top shooters. For example - you won't find a 175gn Sierra in the list.

Cheers
Vince
 
I have almost the same rifle, mine is a benchrest version. I shoot Varget and my velocitys with the 175's are avg 2720fps.
I have used BR2 primers they shoot ok, but I found for my rifle it likes the Fed 210m's better. Give them a try. Also check your neck tension, it could be something as simple as that..

Good luck

Joe
 
there might be a reason the military uses rl15 with sierra 175's....( hint go look at thier early loads in bolt guns, not the reduced loads in gas guns)

mike in co
 
Mike F/TR,

With that attention to detail, I would have expected your spreads & deviations to be better than that.

One issue that you haven't specified is ignition. For example:

  • How do you prime your cases (what tool do you use) & are you satisfied that you have the primers consistently seated kissing the bottom of the pocket plus just a hair?
  • When was the last time you stripped your bolt, cleaned & checked it?
  • Are the loaded rounds a snug fit in the chamber or is some of the pin stroke being absorbed randomly positioning the case forward in the chamber? Check that by comparing the length of a case or two before & after you fire them.
  • What do the primers of fired cases tell you? Does the strike look uniform & is the strike consistently central?
John
 
John Kielly raises good points.

Many of us believe -- with some evidence -- that VarGet usually seems to work best with high-pressure loads.

It is always wise with any rifle, custom or factory, to try several powders and primers. I've rebarreled a rifle only to discover that it now shoots better with a different primer-powder configuration. The BR-2 primers are quite mild, something approaching a magnum primer -- even Fed 215s -- might be worth a try. Cut the load a bit & work up again if you try this.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. I have been pondering the primer issue and I might try something different. I have some WIN primers that I can give a go while I hunt down some others.

Interesting Lyman suggests 2700 for a max speed on 175's but I'll go with everyone's suggestions to go slower.

I am currently using the primer on my turrent press and rotate the case a couple of times to make sure it is even. I'll take a look at the link that was provided.

I clean the gun regularly, so I don't think it is the bolt. The cases have been fire formed but the bolt is not stiff and the primers do not look flattened and are centered.

I am only using 175's because I have a few and figured they would be good for developing reloading technique. Given that it is a complete system, I will switch to Berger 185, which I now have on the shelf.

One thing that was suggested was to get the action bedded, which I am going to do this weekend and have the bolt face trued.

Neck tension is the other thing that I struggle with. Necks are turned to 0.0135 for a total diameter of 0.335. Even with a 0.335 bushing the bullet doesn't budge in the case no matter how hard I push on it, so I figure I still have a lot of neck tension. Very odd.

Thanks, Mike
 
Move the bullet closer to the lands .020 is a big jump. It is all very well to quote neck turning diameters but what is the chamber neck diameter ? Maybe you are over turning the brass for a factory chamber. Although the half neck sizing would reduce this negative on subsequent reloads .
Don't full length size the new brass if it already fits in the chamber .
What is the actual accuracy like , SD's and ES,s don't tell the whole story ?
Milligram scale ?? Powder is weighed in grains .
When tuning a load only change one thing at a time otherwise you don't know what really works and what don't.
Reload gently , press slammers and handle rippers don't load precision ammo.
 
actually some places use grams for bullet weight and powder load....
as in a 10.89 gram siera match king( 168) and 2.75 grams of tu3000 for 800ms from a 600mm bbl straight from my nobel sport reloading manual....


mike in co
J. Valentine said:
Move the bullet closer to the lands .020 is a big jump. It is all very well to quote neck turning diameters but what is the chamber neck diameter ? Maybe you are over turning the brass for a factory chamber. Although the half neck sizing would reduce this negative on subsequent reloads .
Don't full length size the new brass if it already fits in the chamber .
What is the actual accuracy like , SD's and ES,s don't tell the whole story ?
Milligram scale ?? Powder is weighed in grains .
When tuning a load only change one thing at a time otherwise you don't know what really works and what don't.
Reload gently , press slammers and handle rippers don't load precision ammo.
Click to expand...
 
I use IMR4064 behind a SIERRA matchking'168grn.Lapua brass with fed,primer.Use .005neck tension.Get load out of Sierra load book.Load to 2.8 col.

savageman
 
primer pockets...
you say "cleaned up"..but are they all uniform in depth ?

seat primers to the bottom with a slight crush...002 or so....
 
mike in co said:
actually some places use grams for bullet weight and powder load....
as in a 10.89 gram siera match king( 168) and 2.75 grams of tu3000 for 800ms from a 600mm bbl straight from my nobel sport reloading manual....


mike in co
Click to expand...
Yes but he is quoting a grains load of Varget but says he has a milligram scale . Confusing.
 
New brass is no guarantee of uniformity of hardness. A friend was having problems with uniformity of shoulder bump, with Winchester 7WSM and Lapua .338 Lapua brass, both with very few firings. After proper annealing (He bought a two torch machine, and although it was not one of his, but we followed ken Light's guidlines as to how hot to heat the necks.), shoulder bump became very uniform, ( and we still had some neck tension). I think that this shows that the hardness of the relatively new brass had variation that the annealing removed. The uniformity of bump was not permanent, after a couple of firings it started to show up again. This would explain why some long range shooters anneal so often.

Have you tried seating into the lands?
 
Last edited:
Sorry for the slow response. I have been doing some testing to follow up.

I uniform the primer pockets with a K&M tool and using a Century 21 tool to seat the primers.
Primers look fine after firing
I tried lighter loads, but that didn't seem to make a difference.
I am just trying to clean up the the necks not create a thin neck. Following Boyd's suggestion from another post I have been using a Lee Collet neck dye and it has reduced the case runout and I am very easy on the handle and even rotate the case and seat bullets in stages.
I have tried Federal 210 (but not the 210M)
I seated the bullet to 0.010 off the lands (I also tried 0.005).
Milligram scale reads to 0.001 grams or 0.02 grains.
Using once-fired Lapua brass. I did not need to body size the cases this time.

I Suppose that is all of the good news.

-------------------------------
TODAY I SHOT 25 ROUNDS:

5 sighters and 5 each with 43.2 GN, 43.4, 43.6, and 43.8 GN Varget. I shot one of each powder charge and then cyled through the list 4 more times. I did this to balance the envirnmental factors across the various loads. Strangest thing - the speed increased throughout the session. I don't want to type all of the numbers, but have listed them for 43.2 GN and 43.8 GN. (It was overcast and about 51 degrees - the CED Chron didn't work for shot #3, so I only have 4 shots).

43.2 43.8
2,716 2,738
2,733 2,749
2,737 2,751
2,744 2,762

So 2,716 was shot number six, 2,738 was shot number nine, and 2,733 was shot number ten etc. The barrel wasn't especially hot and I let it sit for ~15 minutes before I fired the fourth and fifth flights. For every load the speed increased in each successive flight of shots (There was no issue with bolt lift on any of these rounds.)

Fouling comes to mind, but if it causes problems like that, I can't imaging using it in an F Class shoot with 50 recorded shots. VERY STRANGE!

At Boyd's suggestion I am going to get the stock rebedded, so I have some time to ponder this dilemma, but I welcome any thoughts.

Mike
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I wasn't in a real hurry. It took me perhaps two hours total with set up and several cease fires. 2 or three minutes between 1, 2, & 3. Then a 15 min break and a couple of minutes between 4 and 5. The barrel was warm but not hot. I have also put some rounds down range on a hot day when the barrel was pretty warm with similar results.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I also have good luck with Fed. 210m primers. I read somewhere that they do well with Varget and I can't disagree. I have better luck with 155smk's though. I shoot a Savage Varmint model 12. Courious to know how many rounds you have through yours. Have some issues with my Savage rifles and can't seem to find someone who can relate.
 
I have ~800 rounds through it. No copper fouling, but it does take a bit to get the powder out. That said, this is the first target rifle I have owned, so my only baseline is hunting rifles where you never shoot a huge number of rounds.

I run two wet patches through it and let it sit for a few minutes. The I run a brass brush through it a few times followed by another couple of wet patches. Those come out black. Then a few dry patches and it is pretty clean, but not absolutley clean. Not sure how many patches I would need to run through it to not have any hint of powder.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top