Mike, not to get off of the subject but do me a favor............after you think you have the barrel clean, run a couple of wet patches through it and leave it soak for an hour. Then run a dry patch and look for a blue color. Use a solvent that is made to remove copper (Butches bore shine is a good one) & let me know what happens. Thanks
M
MVW
Guest
Will do. I currently use butches, so that should not be a problem.
K
kdvarmint
Guest
I have no problem cleaning copper out of mine, it is a stainless barrel. Two other guns are blued and it is a different story. Stand the gun on it's butt after it's clean, then shine a light down the barrel. If there is copper in it you'll see in the first two inches of the barrel. Do you notice any kind of build up in the throat that rubs one side of the bullet when you chamber a round?
M
MVW
Guest
Rflshooter, I just ran a patch through and nothing blue came out on the patch. I don't normally do it, but I could put some CLP in it and stand it on the muzzle overnight on a white towel and see if anything drains out. I'd need to reclean it before I shoot it, but that isn't a big deal. Since we are on the topic, what are the symptoms of excessive copper fouling?
kdvarmit. I don't see anything in particular when looking down the muzzle. How would I know if buildup rubs on the bullet?
Thanks,
Mike
kdvarmit. I don't see anything in particular when looking down the muzzle. How would I know if buildup rubs on the bullet?
Thanks,
Mike
K
kdvarmint
Guest
After you chamber a round, remove it, if you have excessive buildup you will see marks on the bullet.
M
MVW
Guest
kdvarmit. I see you also have a post on carbon ring, which I guess is what you are suggesting I look for. Thanks.
K
kdvarmint
Guest
Was more curious if you were seeing any signs yet. I started noticing around 1000 rounds or maybe a little over. I too use Butches and felt I was doing a very good job staying ahead of fouling. I'm not 100% sure it's carbon but seems to be the likely cause. Still haven't found anyone who says "yeah I know exactly what your talkin about." Don't have a bore scope and probably gonna have to go see someone who does.
E
ehparis
Guest
I'm impressed overall with the efforts you've made to get things to work. I really think that taking a look at primers and the tools used to seat them might prove very productive. The Sinclair priming tool, for example, will give you a lot better feel for bottoming out the primer correctly than your turret press will.
Mike: do try the 2156 sierra 155 gr bullet, use about .0005 neck tension and seat the bullet LONG by about .015 to .020 and let the chamber seat the bullets, I use Russian powder but the Varget will work wonderfully in the 308 case. Load for about 2950 to 3000 fps IF your barrell is 30" you will achieve it. I have seen sd's of 4's and ES's of 8 fps with the Varget and the Russian powder's. Be safe.
M
MVW
Guest
ehparis, Thanks for the comment. I am using the Century21 primer tool and have tried CCI BR-2 and FED 210.
cdupuy, Thanks for the suggestion. I will give it a try when I get my gun back. I have been admonished by a number of folks for not having my gun rebedded, so it is off to the shop for a few weeks. It has also been suggested that I am not pushing the 175's enough. Based on an Optimal Charge Weight analysis, 45 GN Varget seems to be ideal. I have been well below that for most of my shooting, so I will bump things up in stages and see what happens.
Others have also suggest seating into the lands. It is also on the list. I am also going to try some 185's - might just be something about 175's that is goofy with my gun.
Mike
cdupuy, Thanks for the suggestion. I will give it a try when I get my gun back. I have been admonished by a number of folks for not having my gun rebedded, so it is off to the shop for a few weeks. It has also been suggested that I am not pushing the 175's enough. Based on an Optimal Charge Weight analysis, 45 GN Varget seems to be ideal. I have been well below that for most of my shooting, so I will bump things up in stages and see what happens.
Others have also suggest seating into the lands. It is also on the list. I am also going to try some 185's - might just be something about 175's that is goofy with my gun.
Mike
M
MVW
Guest
It is basically a load from a ladder test that seems to work in many rifles. I have been trying loads down from 43 GN. The OCW suggests that 44-45 GN might work better with the 175's. I agree that a computer can't pick a load, but it does suggest that I may be going in the wrong direction and that seems worth exploring.
M
mike in co
Guest
when working with a new gun and an unknown..like how will it work with this bullet and this powder...then ladders work well..if shot at 200 yds.
charge is based on case capacity..ati 50 gr case volume, means .5 gr steps.....start at the top of max and go down 10...depending on actual results some times going over is ok.
you need to look at 3 shot patterns on the target( all 10-12 on one target)
you are looking for groups that are clusters vs shotgun pattern. little vertical.
chrono iss a nice tol here.
then reshoot those sweet spots and fine tune from there....
sorry but ocw is a waste of good powder and bullets...three times the work for maybe the same results. maybe less......
simple ladder works if done correctly. it is designed to get you to a starting point of true load development.not to produce the best load at one sitting.
mike in co
charge is based on case capacity..ati 50 gr case volume, means .5 gr steps.....start at the top of max and go down 10...depending on actual results some times going over is ok.
you need to look at 3 shot patterns on the target( all 10-12 on one target)
you are looking for groups that are clusters vs shotgun pattern. little vertical.
chrono iss a nice tol here.
then reshoot those sweet spots and fine tune from there....
sorry but ocw is a waste of good powder and bullets...three times the work for maybe the same results. maybe less......
simple ladder works if done correctly. it is designed to get you to a starting point of true load development.not to produce the best load at one sitting.
mike in co
M
MVW
Guest
Thanks Mike. Noted.
OK, I've read this entire thread and am taking a new direction, always the contrarian 
First of all, IT'S THE GUN!!! You CAN shoot well if the gun's working.....
Then, on the "velocity increasing through the session," I'm guessing it's because your ammunition heated up over time. It takes a long time for ammo to acclimate but it gradually achieves ambient temp and of course will even absorb extra 'heat' energy if left out in the sun on the bench. Hot barrels DO NOT heat up rounds unless they're let sit in the chamber for like 10-15 minutes and "buildup in the bore" or any other byproduct of shooting without cleaning will do nothing to raise velocity measurably.
I can't find any logic in turning the necks...... IMO if you want a gain in this area you could make your cases out of -06 brass but turning necks for even greater clearance can't make anything more consistent.
Regarding Boyd's comments re 'new brass' I agree, mostly, but must add some more of my own ideas...... #1, you CANNOT expect low ES from sloppy, loose-fitting ammunition and if you're shooting new brass in a factory rifle you absolutely have sloppy ammunition fit. You've several ways you can go about fixing the problem; you can reset your headspace to fit tightly on your choice of rounds, you can make longer and better fitting cases from longer brass like -06 or you can "false shoulder" your cases for a crush-fit on fireforming. Any of these options will give you better accuracy and possibly lower the ES while fireforming but in any case they will allow you to fireform properly fitted cases and THEN your ES will drop.
ooops, gotta' go shoot with the kids, they just finished their chores....
tater
al
First of all, IT'S THE GUN!!! You CAN shoot well if the gun's working.....
Then, on the "velocity increasing through the session," I'm guessing it's because your ammunition heated up over time. It takes a long time for ammo to acclimate but it gradually achieves ambient temp and of course will even absorb extra 'heat' energy if left out in the sun on the bench. Hot barrels DO NOT heat up rounds unless they're let sit in the chamber for like 10-15 minutes and "buildup in the bore" or any other byproduct of shooting without cleaning will do nothing to raise velocity measurably.
I can't find any logic in turning the necks...... IMO if you want a gain in this area you could make your cases out of -06 brass but turning necks for even greater clearance can't make anything more consistent.
Regarding Boyd's comments re 'new brass' I agree, mostly, but must add some more of my own ideas...... #1, you CANNOT expect low ES from sloppy, loose-fitting ammunition and if you're shooting new brass in a factory rifle you absolutely have sloppy ammunition fit. You've several ways you can go about fixing the problem; you can reset your headspace to fit tightly on your choice of rounds, you can make longer and better fitting cases from longer brass like -06 or you can "false shoulder" your cases for a crush-fit on fireforming. Any of these options will give you better accuracy and possibly lower the ES while fireforming but in any case they will allow you to fireform properly fitted cases and THEN your ES will drop.
ooops, gotta' go shoot with the kids, they just finished their chores....
tater
al
M
MVW
Guest
Mike, to follow up on your comment. I basically agree with you and think there may be some confusion. I have done a number of ladder tests:
http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf
I fire a few sighter shots and then run the ladder (~8 more shots in .3 GN increments) at 250 yards. In general the shots rise as the powder increases, but not always - is that a node - I am not sure. I started this thread because I was getting inconsistent speeds and that variation to some extent confounds the interpretation of the results. So I decide to let the barrel cool and run a second test. The first few shots tend to rise, then they cluster (more or less). I haven't cleaned between tests, so it finally occurred to me that this is probably fouling and that appears to be a good thing. I got so focused on load develop that I missed the bigger picture.
That said, I'd like to have a good place to start with a cold clean barrel. As for the OCW, my effection for this is that a number of shooters have told me that I am serching for a node in the wrong place and the OCW model (right or wrong) tends to support their position. Theory is what it is. I should say that my real focus is to shoot three ladders with a cleaning between each flight so that I can average out some of the noise in the data. Ladders by their nature are a round-robin affairs and I have never been able to get past round one.
My thoughts.
MIke
http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf
I fire a few sighter shots and then run the ladder (~8 more shots in .3 GN increments) at 250 yards. In general the shots rise as the powder increases, but not always - is that a node - I am not sure. I started this thread because I was getting inconsistent speeds and that variation to some extent confounds the interpretation of the results. So I decide to let the barrel cool and run a second test. The first few shots tend to rise, then they cluster (more or less). I haven't cleaned between tests, so it finally occurred to me that this is probably fouling and that appears to be a good thing. I got so focused on load develop that I missed the bigger picture.
That said, I'd like to have a good place to start with a cold clean barrel. As for the OCW, my effection for this is that a number of shooters have told me that I am serching for a node in the wrong place and the OCW model (right or wrong) tends to support their position. Theory is what it is. I should say that my real focus is to shoot three ladders with a cleaning between each flight so that I can average out some of the noise in the data. Ladders by their nature are a round-robin affairs and I have never been able to get past round one.
My thoughts.
MIke
Last edited by a moderator:
M
mike in co
Guest
i think your last line has it right..
one ladder to show where to spend time on load development..no more ladders
start with a clean bbl, fire one to three foulers and to get a zero for your distance( i like the 250..if you have a good sight pic and steady gun)
then shoot your ladder...logging every shot on a second target......when done, circle shots...
1,2
123
234
345
456
567
678
789
8910
910
you should see one or two groups to work from,
if velocity is a desired attribute then pick the higher group...
typically width is more acceptable than height unless the wind was at your back or in your face.
and start working with smaller powder changes and bullet seating...
remember, the ladder is just the first step, not the end product.
mike in co
one ladder to show where to spend time on load development..no more ladders
start with a clean bbl, fire one to three foulers and to get a zero for your distance( i like the 250..if you have a good sight pic and steady gun)
then shoot your ladder...logging every shot on a second target......when done, circle shots...
1,2
123
234
345
456
567
678
789
8910
910
you should see one or two groups to work from,
if velocity is a desired attribute then pick the higher group...
typically width is more acceptable than height unless the wind was at your back or in your face.
and start working with smaller powder changes and bullet seating...
remember, the ladder is just the first step, not the end product.
mike in co
M
MVW
Guest
Thanks Mike