Rate these actions

vicvanb
Why don't you post a picture of your work for all to enjoy.
gunmaker

Gunmaker,

What is your point--that only guys who are first-class gunsmiths can evaluate actions? Some of us have 40 or 50 years of experience buying, selling, owning, inspecting, and shooting rifles. No we don't build them--we'll leave that to you--but we know quality form and function when we see it. It's like literature or music critics: most have not published best sellers or composed symphonys but they know what is good and what is not.

And yes, I know this is the Gunsmith's Corner, but a bunch of guys who comment here are not gunsmiths. If you want to hear only from other gunmakers, just screen out those of us not up to your standards but don't disrespect our knowledge and contributions.
 
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vicvanb

Vic,

We all agree that the Mauser, Win70 and Rem700 have a place.
But your opinions seem to carry some more darker, more personal meaning.
Did you get run over by a Water Buffalo? Can you never forgive German technology. If you share you might find that 60 years of Gun noodling development may be for something.

If you continue your angst we will never appreciate your sharing.

Either way have fun.

:eek::)
 
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Spott3r

Spott,

"...darker, more personal meaning."

"...run over by a Water Buffalo."

"...forgive German technology."

"...angst."

Where do you get this stuff? Seems a little bit over the top. I'm just an old guy who knows what he likes in rifle actions. A psychologist I am not.
 
Vic...

Sorry for the over obsessiveness.

I guess I enjoy hearing People discuss their stories.

Sometimes they are better than fiction. Maybe Hemingway had a method.
Fiction however does not compare.

I guess what I am really asking is why do you like the Win70 action so much?

:)
 
I'm not Vic but I have a bit of experience with the M70 along with others. What the M70 has (at least the pre-64 and, especially, the pre-war models) are some features which are perceived as being improvements and other features which are just that; features.
The first thing the M70 has going for it is that it was conceived and built as a sporter. It was made to be attractive in contour and was given a low, swept back bolt handle which was tucked out of the way yet still readily accessible.
The second thing it had going for it was the trigger. This was one of the first of the over riding sear type triggers. It was adjustable for weight of pull and overtravel. To me, the trigger becomes one of those perceived improvements. As I said before, I like a well set up two stage trigger just fine. The model 70 trigger is a good one though and is relatively easy to set up. I have M70's with triggers set under 2 pounds on which you can slam the bolt or bounce the rifle on the floor (something I seldom do with a loaded rifle, by the way) without having them fire accidentally.
Another feature which is seen as being an improvement is the change in the ejector location and the resulting change in the bolt head. In the Mauser, the ejector blade is incorporated into the boltstop assembly and the left locking lug is slotted to allow the ejector blade to pass through it. The Model 70 moves the ejector down to the lower left of the receiver bridge. The bolt is slotted through the face beneath the lug which leaves the left lug solid. The advantage? Obviously a solid lug is likely to be stronger than a slotted one. The disadvantage? The ejector on the mauser is actuated by a robust and lightly stress leaf spring. In addition it is in a relatively clean area and unlikely to accumulate crud. The M70 is actuated by a tiny coil spring and occasionally gums up with debris. So, it's a tradeoff; the slightly more reliable Mauser extractor is trade for the slightly greater strength of the M70 solid lug.
The bolt stop of the M70 is moved to a position below the stock line. This leaves a nice uncluttered side on the receiver where the mauser has the visible, boxy looking bolt stop/ejector on the left rear of the receiver. This is another area where the M70 "improvement" is only perceived. It is less sure than the Mauser. Because it disengages by being pressed down, it is possible for it to be pushed down by accident and the bolt lost (it has happened folks!). The Mauser is, again, more robust. The actuating spring is more than needed. The Model 70 may win some appearance points from those who like the uncluttered receiver look but I think the Mauser stop is a classic example of form following function and still looking good doing it.
The Model 70 trigger guard and floorplate are nice. Especially the pre-war ones. Nicely shaped guard and a floorplate with just enough metal. The floorplate latch is simplicity itself and works beautifully.
The model 70 coned breech is a stupid feature copied from the Springfield. It does nothing for safety of feeding. It's a poor feature which Winchester continued with. The Montana Rifle Company even perpetuated the coned breech in their modern action. The only difference was the cone was cast into the receiver rather than being cut on the barrel.
In the event of a case failure the cone does a great job of funneling gas and debris directly into the left locking lug raceway which directs it to the shooter's face. The Mauser's inner barrel seat (c-ring) effectively blocks off the raceway from the open bottom of the bolt face. Any gas which does head down the raceway is blocked by the bolt stop and escapes via the thumb notch.
It can be seen that the M70 has some truly positive features (appearance, trigger, bolt handle) and some features which are positive or negative depending on your viewpoint (ejector and bolt stop). It also has one which is purely negative; the coned breech.
Taken as a whole, the Model 70 was the best commercial bolt action sporting rifle ever made in the United States. It may well have been the best commercial bolt action sporting rifle in the world. There are plenty of good reasons to like the M70 but I still think, as a field rifle action, the Mauser has the edge. Ever since the introduction of the Remington 722, neither has been a truly viable accuracy action though. Regards, Bill.
 
M70 Features

Bill,

Thank you for the great analysis. The only thing we might quibble about is the coned breech and gas handling of M70s. M70s have a gas vent hole in the side of the front ring. Yes, gas does come back along the left side of the bolt. Fortunately, this is a very rare occurrence. I've been shooting M70s since 1951 and it has yet to happen to me. I'm hoping it never will. This negative alone has not detracted from the M70's appeal and marketability since it came out in 1936! I guess if it was a serious problem actions would have been modified or discontinued.

I wasn't there to see it but I have read that military Mausers jammed in battle for lack of a coned breech. True?
 
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I doubt it. I have never seen such an occurence. It is possible Mausers jammed if the cartridge fed in ahead of the extractor and the shooter panicked. Unaltered Mauser extractors dont jump over the rim very well.
The model 70 does have a gas vent hole but it's insufficient in the case of a serious brass failure. The model 70 does do a great job of venting the gas directly into the shooter's face. New model 70 CRF actions addressed this by adding the little gas block which was retained by the extractor collar. While the effectiveness of this little block is questionable, it was something. I retrofit this to pre-64 actions on my own rifles. The lack of gas handling ability was recognized early on and there was an article in the American Rifleman on modifying the bolt sleeve to improve shooter protection.
This is only a big deal in the event of a major failure. More than just a leaky primer. I shoot a couple of pre-war actions and just count on no brass failures! Regards, Bill.
 
Gunmaker,

What is your point--that only guys who are first-class gunsmiths can evaluate actions?

I just get a little tired of reading numerous posts about how equal or better the pre64-70 oops... now it's the prewar70 verses the 98Mauser from someone who apparently (this is my assumption) has never actually done a lot of work to BOTH. It gets into one of those facts verses feelings debates. We all know how useful feelings are. If you had a bunch of experience with the Mauser and not just thought you remember reading that the Germans had a jamming problem maybe your posts would have more.... what's the word??? gravitasse.

Maybe you should have started your posting on this thread that you have spent many years shooting Pre64m70s and based on your experience as a shooter thought they were great. When you started emphatically stating that the "action preferred --BY FAR--by the top custom gun makers of fine sporting rifles was the Pre-64 M70" It's pretty clear to me that you have spent much more time reading about it than doing it. The only action that will remotely get close to the number used for custom rifles built with the Mauser 98 --BY FAR-- may end up being the Rem700. That's why I basically said whip it out in a post a while back. Your baseless posts are really quite annoying and don't do anyone any good. Your posts where you state how and why you've formed your strong opinions should be welcomed here. This is a place where rifle lovers can chew the fat behind the keyboard curtain.

Like I said before, the reason I show up here is to learn something I don't know. I'm not a benchrest gunsmith. But I feel that if I want to give my clients a better product, I can learn something here from some of the smiths who build MANY of the most accurate rifles in the world. It's also good to hear about the experiences that shooters have had with various products. Good or bad. Just don't base your experience on something you've read, and post it as something you've worked with and know as fact. As far too many do when it comes to Mausers. Keep it real. Like Bill's great post above!

gunmaker
 
Gunmaker

My new year resolutions for 2008:

Sell all my M70s and buy Mausers.

Don't try to learn anything anymore by reading.

Join the gunmakers guild--the only way to voice opinions with "gravitasse."

Don't annoy "Gunmaker" or bruise his delicate ego.

Happy???
 
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And Finally...

I've been reading through a lot of posts and there seems to be a great variety of opinions on actions to build custom rifles from. I've always been a Remington 40x, 700 actions from my experience on a college shooting team. We also shot Winchester 52's and Anshutz rimfire. Which action is preferred by this group for custom high power?

I'm trying to rate the following:

Remington 700, 40X
Ruger 77 mk2
Winchester pre 64, post, new pre64 type
Savage
Remington 798
Mauser 98 copies
Obendorf
Husqvarna
Sako

Ben,

You are sure right about it being a tough crowd!!

Sorry this got so far afield from your basic aim.

I contributed only because I've had many years experience using old M70s (and some Mausers, Remingtons, Savages, Sakos, and Rugers). I do know this--old M70s have some very nice features. They look good. They function smoothly. Accurate rifles can be built based on old M70 actions. Many fine custom sporters have old M70 actions. They are in high demand--that must mean something.

Are there "better" actions? Depends on your intended purpose and preferences. If you are interested in extreme accuracy, go with something else. If you can't afford an old M70 action, go with something else. If you are concerned about case failure and gas leakage, go with something else. If you want the (apparently) absolute best machining, go with something else.

Call me annoying or filled with angst, but I like old M70s and you might too if you try them!

NOTHING I've said here was intended to claim Mausers (or any of the others) are poor choices. I know full well that MANY fine rifles have used Mauser actions. The truth is, all of the actions you listed are good choices--pay your money and take your choice.

Good luck!
 
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I doubt it. I have never seen such an occurence. It is possible Mausers jammed if the cartridge fed in ahead of the extractor and the shooter panicked. Unaltered Mauser extractors dont jump over the rim very well.
The model 70 does have a gas vent hole but it's insufficient in the case of a serious brass failure. The model 70 does do a great job of venting the gas directly into the shooter's face. New model 70 CRF actions addressed this by adding the little gas block which was retained by the extractor collar. While the effectiveness of this little block is questionable, it was something. I retrofit this to pre-64 actions on my own rifles. The lack of gas handling ability was recognized early on and there was an article in the American Rifleman on modifying the bolt sleeve to improve shooter protection.
This is only a big deal in the event of a major failure. More than just a leaky primer. I shoot a couple of pre-war actions and just count on no brass failures! Regards, Bill.

Gas venting in the pre-64, can you say Springfield, no different what so ever. I don't know if numbers have ever been kept on people that lost their eye sight using which action, but the Springfield has to be near the top.

The only effective way I've seen the mod-70 brought under control for gas handling was ROY DUNLAP's solution. He vented the shroud on the left side and welded on a tiny angle bracket like, to protect the shooter from gas to straight back and up. As many of you know ROY's rifles were built for cross the course and Palma. More than a few pierced primer were seen in those days. Pierced primers on a Mod-70 put the gas right in the shooters face.

Please remember That I like the old Model 70's a great deal. Like the Man in the movie said,

"you just got to know your limitations" :eek:
 
I experienced a catastrophic failure when the bolt face broke on a custom 7mmRemMag I had built on a 1945 Mexican Mauser back in '69. The bolt face broke off between the center of the firing pin hole and the split lugs. Jack Belk later told me that the bolt failure was probably due to poor heat treatment of the bolt, a common occurance with that vintage Mexican Mauser. Nonetheless, when everything came apart, the bolt body was flashed with brass. It actually looked kinda pretty. Unfortunately, so was my face (except for the "pretty" part). That hideous looking Mauser bolt shroud that I was advised to replace with something more modern and pretty saved my eyesight.

The moral of the story is:
1) catastrophic failures actually do occur
2) features that can protect the shooter do indeed matter
3) heat treat the old Mexican Mausers before firing a modern magnum with it

I still have the 300 Win Mag my dad also had built on a 1945 Mexican Mauser in 1969, but the bolt has been replaced, bolt lugs and lug recesses recut, and the chamber recut. While I was at it, the old fancy stock we picked out at Rinehart-Fajen in Warsaw way back when got its checkering recut and a new hand rubbed oil finish. Since money was being spent like I grew it, I also topped it with a new Leupold 3.5-10 VX III with the Boone and Crocket reticle. I love the rifle. Accuracy wise, it's not anything I could compete with, by any stretch of the imagination, but it is an absolutely beautiful custom rifle that goes hunting every year.
 
Scary!!

Sam,

Interesting! Glad your eyes were undamaged.

There is a picture of something similar in a Pre-64 M70 in Roy Dunlap's book--the result of the using the wrong bolt. [Oops! Forgot I'm not supposed to refer to things I've read. Sorry].

I have seen two old M70s that blew up--I mean really came apart. One was a 243 Featherweight, the other a 300 H&H Magnum Standard. Both apparently caused by firing a round with a bullet stuck part way up the bore. Seeing these made a believer out of me. Sort of like seeing a really bad car wreck. Makes you slow down.

Catastrophic failures can and do happen to all sorts of actions. I'm surprised they don't happen more often.
 
Notice I said that I bought mod 70s not that I sold them!!!

In fact, I have only ever sold one- a 220 Swift that I used as a hunting rifle but I just thought it was awfully heavy for a 220 Swift with a sporter weight barrel. I think I sold the Swift for $900 as they are "more desirable."

No doubt having a large population of retirees in the area contributes to the glut of mod 70s- husband dies, wife unloads his "deer rifle." I had a buddy who was a dealer of sorts and he would pick me out all the "shooters", this usually meant 270s and 30-06s.

The only other ones i really would spring for again are a 250 Savage (if they made that) and another 300 or 375. I like them for hunting rifles as they have great triggers, decent safeties and are easy to mount a scope on.

I have a Mod 30 that I need to restock and it has hideous bottom metal and a homemade aluminum scope mount. I am not a fan of the coned breaches, but there are custom actions out there with this feature.

My mod 70s feed so slick that I love hunting with them. They aren't target rifles, but kill just fine!
 
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