Rate these actions

Bnhpr said:
The rifle is more of a project/personal goal than for a planned use. For me, it's more about the process and, of course, fit and finish, then obtaining another rifle. What I'm saying, is that I have no planned use. I do some benchrest shooting, but I have rifles that shoot really well already. I just didn't build them myself.

I do research all suggestions. Even when people tell me I should consider an aluminum alloy reciever. :eek: I'll have to run that one by Bill
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Don't know about today but a few years ago the action preferred --BY FAR--by the top custom gun makers of fine sporting rifles was the Pre-64 M70.
 
Spott3r said:
The 700 would be an excellent place to start.

But if you feel your skill is not there yet then I would start with a 98 then go str8 to the 700's.

V24's are an excellent 98 off the bat.

Have fun!

:D:D:D
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I have several 700's I can cannibalize, and I have a 798 ordered.

I have two Adam's and Bennet 308/10 CM blanks, I can practice with. I bought a 308 match finish reamer.

I have 20 years experience on a lathe, so I'm sure I'll be able to figure it out.
 
vicvanb,
That site is difficult to navigate. I didn't have any luck finding what you are talking about. Let me know when you have another available for $550. It is funny that the custom builders like the pre 64 and the 98 Mausers, but almost all admit that the Rem Mod 30 is a superior quality rifle.
Butch
 
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg
 
For the people that don't know him, Gunmaker is one of our better custom gunmakers in the USA. He can do all the metal work and the wood also. He built his own stock duplicator and a mired of other tools. He just finished a half octagon-half round barrel for me. He has also made me a custom hinged floorplate for a mini-Mauser. I believe that Gunmaker is CNC equiped also.
Butch
 
gunmaker said:
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg
Click to expand...

I respect your point of view, but for those of us who can't afford a Holland and Holland or a Purdey... maybe the M70 is a better choice.

Not sure what you mean by not learning much from the M70.

It always was puzzling to me why someone would start with a military Mauser and have to replace the bottom metal, the safety, the trigger, the bolt handle, etc. when you can go with a M70 that already had all that stuff done at Winchester. And when you're done you still don't have a coned breech or a rifle that you can drop one round into the chamber and close the bolt over it.

Didn't a lot of German soldiers jam the Mausers for lack of a coned breech?
 
vicvanb,
I just bought a beautiful Persian 98 Mauser barreled action for $179. I bought a 1909 Argentine Mauser hinged bottom metal from EvilBay for $100, and a Timney trigger for $50. I believe Jim Kobe sells safety conversions for $75. The machine work on the Persian is much better than a Pre64 mod. 70. The metal work on a model 70 cost just the same or more than the Mauser to achieve the same result. Don't get me wrong, I like the mod70. Just don't sell the Mausers short.
Butch
 
I'm not ragging on the m70

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to pick any fights here. The reason for this thread was to learn something about action differences. Based on my experience with the Mauser 98 and M70pre64 style receivers I'm just pointing out the facts. I've got some of both in my safe.
vicvanb said:
Not sure what you mean by not learning much from the M70.
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Most of the customizing work has already been done at the factory.
vicvanb said:
It always was puzzling to me why someone would start with a military Mauser and have to replace the bottom metal, the safety, the trigger, the bolt handle, etc.
Click to expand...
As an introductory project you learn much more. You have to innovate and create some features that weren't there to start with. That's why the 98 is the action of choice for gunsmithing schools.
vicvanb said:
And when you're done you still don't have a coned breech or a rifle that you can drop one round into the chamber and close the bolt over it. Didn't a lot of German soldiers jam the Mausers for lack of a coned breech?
Click to expand...
The coned breech has very little to do with the feeding IMHO. If it's not pointed into the chamber by the time the bullet gets to the back of the barrel then it isn't feeding properly anyway. Just throwing one into the barrel and single feeding the claw extractor over is another thing you learn to do with a Mauser. I've never broken an extractor yet. As far as feeding from the magazine to the chamber there are none smoother than a 98 done right.

IMHO
If you want to learn how to BUILD a "precision" rifle with a glass stock then build a 700 or Savage and do the tricks you see done very well around this forum.

If you want to build a very nice sporter with a classy wood stock then a pre64m70 is a QUICK way to get there.

If you want to learn how H&H and Purdey build bolt guns then the only choice is a military contract Mauser 98 that was machined in Germany for another country. The machine work on some of these contract receivers is truly world class. The Belgian made ones have inferior machine work. The Mauser 98 can be the cornerstone for a world class sporting rifle valuable for generations to come.

If you want to get it done as quick as possible with the most accurate results then start with something like a Borden custom action.

They're all good choices. Just different.
gunmaker
 
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If you look up inside a 98 mauser you will see a coned breech, it just isn;t part of the barrell as in the M-70 and springfield. As far as the bottom metal it can be made to look pretty good with a little work. Jon
 
Great info guys. It always amazes me how the Mauser has remained unchanged for 109 years. It, and the mod 70, pre 64 is still the benchmark in your discussions above, against which all other actions are judged.

Gunmaker, Handsome piece you made there, very impressive.

I don't have any Obendorf Mausers lying around, or pre-64's. But I could probably procure one. I have some friends in the right circles to get some.

To perfect my machine tool technique. I plan on reworking some actions I have already. I have a 700 BDL that shoots like a shotgun. I have a Ruger KM77VT in 25-06 that shoots like crap (what a ripoff that was). I have a 700 classic grade that I could use,
 
If you don't want to buy a custom action, then I suggest building around a..................TRIGGER!.....................If you can't put an excellent (jewell) trigger in it, you will be "stuck in low gear" for your entire relationship with the rifle.......kind of like putting a cast on your "good" leg, even though it ain't broken.

Oh, and with that said, I'd start with a Remington.........If I couldn't/didn't want to use a custom action.

-Dave-:)
 
Dave makes a good point

When shooters ask me what chambering I would build for a custom Rifle that will see bench time,as well as woods time, I say, "one that Lapua makes brass for".
The same can be said for components like triggers. Building a $3000 Rifle with a great Custom barrel, properly 'smithed, and completely functional can be a heartbreak when you are among your buddies at the range if you can't get a decent trigger.
Of course, companies have been making pretty decent triggers for Mausers since the '50's. By decent, I mean you can squeeze off a round without upsetting the Rifle.
I have checked the trueness of a couple of military Mausers in my life, and you would be surprised just how well they were machined. Of course, all of that bolt flop makes some of it a moot point, but they are certainly not pieces of junk.
The absolute worst action I have seen to date was a Winchester I bought a few years back, (a cayote, new in the box), with the thought of building a 25 WSSM. I removed the barrel, and the threads looked like they had been machined with a cold chisel. I tuned a mandrel to fit the bolt way, and placed it up on it to see how bad other things were. The face ran out .004, (that is a LOT), it didn't even look like it was machined. The threads ran out with the bolt way so bad, that I decided to just lay it aside and forget about it. I ended up selling the whole thing for about 1/2 what I gave for it. Total piece of junk........jackie
 
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British "pride"

gunmaker said:
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg
Click to expand...

It may have something to do with Holland&Holland and Purdey believing that nothing made in the USA could possibly meet their standards??
 
Just curious, but what does it cost to have a trigger guard/ bottom metal done up like that from a military Mauser?
 
contact

Al
Please contact me through email or PM. The condition of military floormetal guards varies greatly and I have no flat rate because of this. The one in the pic above was an unissued floormetal in perfect condition. The cost of polishing everything under the wood was more than the visible work.
gunmaker
contact infohttp://members.sdplains.com/chico/sign.jpg
 
Dave Short said:
If you don't want to buy a custom action, then I suggest building around a..................TRIGGER!.....................If you can't put an excellent (jewell) trigger in it, you will be "stuck in low gear" for your entire relationship with the rifle.......kind of like putting a cast on your "good" leg, even though it ain't broken.

Oh, and with that said, I'd start with a Remington.........If I couldn't/didn't want to use a custom action.

-Dave-:)
Click to expand...

I love a nice trigger. I think the 40-x trigger and Anshutz are the best I've used.

What do you recommend for a 98? 700?
 
Apples Vs. Apples

gunmaker said:
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg
Click to expand...

Sorry to be so contrary, but the "Mausers were better machined than M70s" argument is apples vs. oranges. About 80% of Pre-64 M70s were made after 1950. Demand was high and quality declined somewhat in the 1950s but never to the point where workmanship was poor. I think the Pre-war M70 actions were machined as well as the Mausers--and that is the fair comparison, not Pre-war Mausers vs. post war M70s.

It's all pretty academic anyway don't you think? Sure, a guy who just needs to be to work on time can use a Rollex watch, but the added quality is unimportant to the task at hand.
 
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jackie schmidt said:
When shooters ask me what chambering I would build for a custom Rifle that will see bench time,as well as woods time, I say, "one that Lapua makes brass for".
The same can be said for components like triggers. Building a $3000 Rifle with a great Custom barrel, properly 'smithed, and completely functional can be a heartbreak when you are among your buddies at the range if you can't get a decent trigger.
Of course, companies have been making pretty decent triggers for Mausers since the '50's. By decent, I mean you can squeeze off a round without upsetting the Rifle.
I have checked the trueness of a couple of military Mausers in my life, and you would be surprised just how well they were machined. Of course, all of that bolt flop makes some of it a moot point, but they are certainly not pieces of junk.
The absolute worst action I have seen to date was a Winchester I bought a few years back, (a cayote, new in the box), with the thought of building a 25 WSSM. I removed the barrel, and the threads looked like they had been machined with a cold chisel. I tuned a mandrel to fit the bolt way, and placed it up on it to see how bad other things were. The face ran out .004, (that is a LOT), it didn't even look like it was machined. The threads ran out with the bolt way so bad, that I decided to just lay it aside and forget about it. I ended up selling the whole thing for about 1/2 what I gave for it. Total piece of junk........jackie
Click to expand...

Jackie,

We all know that the Post-64 M70s had problems--just look at them. This discussion has been about Pre-64s.

Unlike today's rifles, the Pre-64 M70s had to pass a rigorous inspection and were all test fired at the factory prior to 1962. They all functioned well or they were not shipped. They all fed well and bolt handles never came off out-of-the-box rifles--like several M700s I have seen!
 
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